Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 9:40:24 GMT
The earliest reports that TII was a death camp came in 1942. In 1943, when the Nazis found Katyn, they conducted an investigation with observers to establish who had killed those people. Since they knew they were being accused of murder, not just at TII but at other camps, why did the Nazis not conduct similar investigations? This is pure speculation; the Germans were aware they had the moral high ground at Katyn despite being accused of that crime by the Soviets. This post has nothing to do with Treblinka at all. Why did the Nazis not conduct an investigation at TII in 1943, when they did so at Katyn in 1943?
Wiernik knew about Katyn and how it caused a panic at TII.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 11, 2022 10:33:17 GMT
The earliest reports that TII was a death camp came in 1942. In 1943, when the Nazis found Katyn, they conducted an investigation with observers to establish who had killed those people. Since they knew they were being accused of murder, not just at TII but at other camps, why did the Nazis not conduct similar investigations? Because at treblinka there were no executed bodies to dig up.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 14:54:31 GMT
The earliest reports that TII was a death camp came in 1942. In 1943, when the Nazis found Katyn, they conducted an investigation with observers to establish who had killed those people. Since they knew they were being accused of murder, not just at TII but at other camps, why did the Nazis not conduct similar investigations? Because at treblinka there were no executed bodies to dig up. Which means all the Nazis needed to do was take some people around TII, photograph them at the various buildings to prove they were not gas chambers and show them at undisturbed ground. Simple. Since they knew they were being accused of gassings, at the same time they were gathering evidence to prove they were not responsible for Katyn, why did they not do the same at the AR camps?
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Feb 11, 2022 17:31:33 GMT
Since they knew they were being accused of gassings, at the same time they were gathering evidence to prove they were not responsible for Katyn, why did they not do the same at the AR camps? Katyn had real bodies to show the world. The war atrocity propaganda for anything else was similar to the previous war and so dismissed by the leaders. If they did show photos of Treblinka (which is a ridiculous suggestion) people of the time would say "aha they have something to hide; they killed them elsewhere"; this would result in an infinite number of atrocity locations just to prove they didn't do it. Of course they could never prove a negative, the goal posts would shift then as now.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 17:39:33 GMT
Since they knew they were being accused of gassings, at the same time they were gathering evidence to prove they were not responsible for Katyn, why did they not do the same at the AR camps? Katyn had real bodies to show the world. The war atrocity propaganda for anything else was similar to the previous war and so dismissed by the leaders. If they did show photos of Treblinka (which is a ridiculous suggestion) people of the time would say "aha they have something to hide; they killed them elsewhere"; this would result in an infinite number of atrocity locations just to prove they didn't do it. Of course they could never prove a negative, the goal posts would shift then as now. If, after hearing about a mass murder at Katyn, a search was made of the area and no evidence was found, then that claim would have been dismissed. The same applies to TII. It would have been very easy to disprove TII gassing claims and then do the same for Belzec and Sobibor and the A-B Kremas and by then, no one would believe gassing claims anymore.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Feb 11, 2022 17:43:45 GMT
If, after hearing about a mass murder at Katyn, a search was made of the area and no evidence was found, then that claim would have been dismissed. The same applies to TII. It would have been very easy to disprove TII gassing claims and then do the same for Belzec and Sobibor and the A-B Kremas and by then, no one would believe gassing claims anymore. katyn was not a rumour but a fact, the other atrocity stories were rumours; it seems the eye witnesses to the rumours were conjured up at a later stage. Of course there were a number of other places the poor Germans would have to contend with, all death camps, such as Kosow Podlaski. At that stage, every camp was a gassing camp according to the rumours.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 17:50:57 GMT
If, after hearing about a mass murder at Katyn, a search was made of the area and no evidence was found, then that claim would have been dismissed. The same applies to TII. It would have been very easy to disprove TII gassing claims and then do the same for Belzec and Sobibor and the A-B Kremas and by then, no one would believe gassing claims anymore. katyn was not a rumour but a fact, the other atrocity stories were rumours; it seems the eye witnesses to the rumours were conjured up at a later stage. Of course there were a number of other places the poor Germans would have to contend with, all death camps, such as Kosow Podlaski. At that stage, every camp was a gassing camp according to the rumours. The earliest rumours were about the AR camps, which, if they had been tackled, would have meant future rumours would have been disbelieved.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Feb 11, 2022 18:15:26 GMT
The earliest rumours were about the AR camps, which, if they had been tackled, would have meant future rumours would have been disbelieved. How simplistic. There were other places. No one can predict the state of future anything let alone rumours.
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mrolonzo
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Treblinka
Feb 11, 2022 19:11:13 GMT
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 11, 2022 19:11:13 GMT
katyn was not a rumour but a fact, the other atrocity stories were rumours; it seems the eye witnesses to the rumours were conjured up at a later stage. Of course there were a number of other places the poor Germans would have to contend with, all death camps, such as Kosow Podlaski. At that stage, every camp was a gassing camp according to the rumours. The earliest rumours were about the AR camps, which, if they had been tackled, would have meant future rumours would have been disbelieved. Suppositions about future beliefs and the course of propaganda are baseless nonsense.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 19:34:13 GMT
The earliest rumours were about the AR camps, which, if they had been tackled, would have meant future rumours would have been disbelieved. How simplistic. There were other places. No one can predict the state of future anything let alone rumours. Easily dispelled with a simple investigation. How stupid not to realise that.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 11, 2022 19:55:41 GMT
How simplistic. There were other places. No one can predict the state of future anything let alone rumours. Easily dispelled with a simple investigation. How stupid not to realise that. Asserting that there is a need to dispel preposterous rumours during a war is indeed stupid.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 20:03:20 GMT
Easily dispelled with a simple investigation. How stupid not to realise that. Asserting that there is a need to dispel preposterous rumours during a war is indeed stupid. They were not rumours, escaped prisoners were witnesses to what was happening and local Poles reported mass arrivals at the camps and empty trains leaving. That is witness evidence corroborated by circumstantial evidence.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 11, 2022 20:09:39 GMT
Asserting that there is a need to dispel preposterous rumours during a war is indeed stupid. They were not rumours, escaped prisoners were witnesses to what was happening and local Poles reported mass arrivals at the camps and empty trains leaving. That is witness evidence corroborated by circumstantial evidence. They didnt bring any bodies with them, and their stories were stupid, so no, just rumours.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 20:13:51 GMT
They were not rumours, escaped prisoners were witnesses to what was happening and local Poles reported mass arrivals at the camps and empty trains leaving. That is witness evidence corroborated by circumstantial evidence. They didnt bring any bodies with them, and their stories were stupid, so no, just rumours. Stop pretending that witness evidence is rumour. Every single person who was inside TII saw at least one part of the process by which people arrived, there were occasional worker selections, the rest were taken to barracks, stripped of all their property, hair cut and sent to be gassed. Then witnesses who worked on the railways saw full trains arrive and empty trains or trains carrying property leaving the camp. Those rail workers also saw excavators inside the camp and smoke and the smell of cremations. That is not rumour.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 11, 2022 20:25:01 GMT
They didnt bring any bodies with them, and their stories were stupid, so no, just rumours. Stop pretending that witness evidence is rumour. Every single person who was inside TII saw at least one part of the process by which people arrived, there were occasional worker selections, the rest were taken to barracks, stripped of all their property, hair cut and sent to be gassed. Then witnesses who worked on the railways saw full trains arrive and empty trains or trains carrying property leaving the camp. Those rail workers also saw excavators inside the camp and smoke and the smell of cremations. That is not rumour. Stay mad. In fact its completely rumour, they even tried the asphyixiation by quicklime and urine routine in the traincar too, or the 'underground electric death' at Belzec. They all told tall tales and even modified these tales as time went on. The John Demajuk trial shows how easily all this is. The witnesses were all either liars or pressured into it. No gassing occurred whatsoever, and the SS and the whermact were moral and responsible soldiers.
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