Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 16, 2021 14:49:58 GMT
Nessie wrote: Apparently Nessie hasn't bothered to read even a little further beyond my quote. Hilberg goes on to agree that Gerstein's estimates were indeed possible. It was at that point that the judge intervened on Hilberg's behalf. Not according to the link;
"Note: At this point in the cross-examination, Christie attempted to place a one square metre on the floor and ask some people to come and stand in it. Judge Hugh Locke immediately stopped Christie and asked the jury to leave. After extensive submissions, in which Christie argued the demonstration would show to the jury that the figures in the Gerstein statement were preposterous, Locke ruled, inter alia, that the proposed demonstration was "a type of sideshow" which he would not allow in his courtroom"
The Judge was unhappy at the physical demonstration planned by Christie. Hilberg did not object.
"During the submissions in the absence of the jury, Hilberg testified as follows with respect to the Gerstein statement: "Square metres will do, because they are not crouching down... What may be surprising is that the order of magnitude, the number of people one can push in such places, is in the hundreds. It may not be 800; it may be 300. Moreover, this particular witness may not have estimated the area quite correctly. We don't know what size of gas chambers he is referring to, so I would not characterize the statement as totally preposterous, but neither did I accept it and I wouldn't use it."
Hilberg is clear that he knows Gerstein is wrong. He also explains, as I have, that it is all a guessing game as we do not know the exact size of the gas chambers.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 16, 2021 14:57:45 GMT
Nessie wrote: At the military tribunals people were on trial for their lives. Several hundred were in fact executed but Nessie, with apparent callous indifference, declares that no exact information is required. Guestimates and cherry-picked snippets from obviously lying witnesses are perfectly acceptable. Nessie takes the Jew's position that Germans needed to be executed so credible evidence and proof were dispensed with as mere formalities. Strawman. Despite seeing the exchange between Hilberg and Christie, you are intent on claiming Hilberg claims Gerstein was a an entirely credible witness. That is clearly not true. Both Hilberg and Christie recognise the flaws in Gerstein's testimony, especially his exaggerations. Hilberg said
"I think that Gerstein was somewhat given to great excitability... I would not characterize it a lie, because a lie is a deliberate falsehood. I don't know whether, in his mind, this was a deliberate falsehood"
Hilberg understands that a witness can say things that are wrong, without lying. Christie, does not dispute that. Indeed he said
"Christie interrupted and put to Hilberg that, as a common sense principle, if someone told him that between 28 and 32 people could be packed into one square metre, 1.8 metres high, that that person was either a fool or a liar? "Well, on this particular datum I would be very careful," said Hilberg, "because Gerstein, apparently, was a very excitable person. He was capable of all kinds of statements which he, indeed, made not only in the affidavit but its context."
Christie recognises there are alternatives, which are the witness is a "fool", or a liar. Hilberg argues he is a "fool" and that his testimony needs to be taken with a pinch of salt and certainly not literally. Christie does not dispute that.
"So did you think that was just a mistake, that he had said that in error?, asked Christie."
You refuse to believe the witnesses can be truthful and make mistakes. Christie and Hilberg, the lawyer and historian both recognise that they do.
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 16, 2021 18:05:49 GMT
You refuse to believe the witnesses can be truthful and make mistakes. Christie and Hilberg, the lawyer and historian both recognise that they do. Cold comfort indeed to the innocent men and their families while they are dangling at the end of a rope.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 16, 2021 20:08:37 GMT
Lucjan Puchala was involved in the camp construction (the current TII), he is describing the first gas chamber. Another witness said after the uprising: The bath is synonymous with gas chamber. There is a small tower over the gas chamber. Here is an attachment showing the armoury at Treblinka showing the small tower. It is made of bricks and concrete.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 17, 2021 9:13:20 GMT
Happily quoting witnesses to gas chambers, is odd when you claim there were no gas chambers. Why don't you quote witnesses who say there were no gas chambers?
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 17, 2021 9:50:50 GMT
Happily quoting witnesses to gas chambers, is odd when you claim there were no gas chambers. Why don't you quote witnesses who say there were no gas chambers? There may have been gas chambers, but that is not the issue. What seems to be apparent is that the concrete and brick "chamber' was not a gas chamber at all but an armoury. Perhaps the real gas chambers were made of wood after all.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 17, 2021 10:19:36 GMT
Nessie is having about as much success as Hilberg did with Christie. Both Nessie and Hilberg try to excuse Gerstein's lies as just exaggerations and fail miserably. As Christie said, anyone who would claim that 28 to 32 people could stand on one square meter is either a fool or a liar.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 17, 2021 11:30:09 GMT
Happily quoting witnesses to gas chambers, is odd when you claim there were no gas chambers. Why don't you quote witnesses who say there were no gas chambers? There may have been gas chambers, but that is not the issue. What seems to be apparent is that the concrete and brick "chamber' was not a gas chamber at all but an armoury. Perhaps the real gas chambers were made of wood after all. A wooden building with naked people next to it, could be where people had been processed and stripped of everything they owned, prior to being sent for gassings. That process is agreed upon by every single witness who worked isnide TII. TII was part of AR, which included the mass theft of the last of the Jews property. That theft is inconsistent with resettlement.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 17, 2021 11:31:26 GMT
Nessie is having about as much success as Hilberg did with Christie. Both Nessie and Hilberg try to excuse Gerstein's lies as just exaggerations and fail miserably. As Christie said, anyone who would claim that 28 to 32 people could stand on one square meter is either a fool or a liar. Produce evidence to prove Gerstein was lying. Remember, evidence is not argument, it is from eyewitnesses, documents, physical items, circumstances, photos and archaeological and forensic analysis.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 17, 2021 17:58:58 GMT
A wooden building with naked people next to it, could be where people had been processed and stripped of everything they owned, prior to being sent for gassings. That process is agreed upon by every single witness who worked isnide TII. TII was part of AR, which included the mass theft of the last of the Jews property. That theft is inconsistent with resettlement. This coulda been scenario is not how it is reported. They do this before entering "the tube" or Himmelstraรe at Sobibor; this way they run naked straight to heaven. There are huge inconsistencies in what is seen etc. The description of the gas chamber fits exactly with the brick and mortar armoury.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 20, 2021 15:42:24 GMT
When did that event occur, been-there? Was that before Berg blew the little holyhoaxer diesel rowboat out of the water?
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 23, 2021 20:23:49 GMT
Here are the descriptions of the Treblinka II area. Here is a modern photo from Google maps showing the area from the road. Treblinka camp near spur. 2012 So it can be agreed the area is heavily wooded as described by wiki and yadvashem (and others). Below are photos of Treblinka extermination camp. Note that something is missing.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 10, 2022 14:36:32 GMT
Quietly gassing a few intellectually handicapped in a room with CO from a bottle is a different scenario to fitting 10 people in per square foot and using a tank engine. Those gas chambers were in Germany. Even the Nazis could not stand against public opinion and had to stop. Mass gassing people outside of Germany was less risky. You are ignoring the two camps that gassed people, not in Poland, or where there was Soviet influence after the war. Exactly, the Soviets liberated abandoned camps and ghettos, with very few Jews left, which is at odds with denier claims that millions of Jews were not gassed. Mass gassing was more risky, because the population, being under less control, could move around frequently. Plus any enemy of the Nazis had more allies in situ. There were no gassings of course. The soviets simply used jewish and resistance propaganda to justify their policy. Very few jews left because they had died of starvation and/ or typhus or they had walked away in different directions, including with the Nazis - because, of course, the nazis had taken reasonable care of the jews during the war.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 9:05:50 GMT
The earliest reports that TII was a death camp came in 1942. In 1943, when the Nazis found Katyn, they conducted an investigation with observers to establish who had killed those people. Since they knew they were being accused of murder, not just at TII but at other camps, why did the Nazis not conduct similar investigations?
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Feb 11, 2022 9:30:23 GMT
The earliest reports that TII was a death camp came in 1942. In 1943, when the Nazis found Katyn, they conducted an investigation with observers to establish who had killed those people. Since they knew they were being accused of murder, not just at TII but at other camps, why did the Nazis not conduct similar investigations? This is pure speculation; the Germans were aware they had the moral high ground at Katyn despite being accused of that crime by the Soviets. This post has nothing to do with Treblinka at all.
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