Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 14, 2021 20:12:50 GMT
Nessie wrote: Listen up, Klown. Bomba stated plainly and unequivocally that he worked as a barber INSIDE a gas chamber. He left the chamber during the execution process and returned after the bodies had been removed. What don't you understand about that? Was he supposed to remain in the gas chamber while the victims were being gassed/suffocated? He did not see a gassing happen, from outside the chambers. He clearly states he was taken away during the gassing process. He did not see what happened during that process. That makes his evidence about the gassing process hearsay. He did not see it himself, he heard about it from others, who were there. Hilberg was not an eyewitness and Christie lost!!!! All of the witness said pyres on grates, with some also remembering that prior to that, attempts were made to burn bodies inside the graves. That witnesses gave varying numbers, is normal. He was talking about the pyres. All the witnesses agree the cremations were on pyres, with some saying there were failed attempts to cremate in the graves. Rajchman said people died slowly after many hours inside the chamber, as did Wiernik. Rajchman thought the air was pumped out, he is the only witness to think that. They all agree on chambers being used to kill. They all agree gas was used. There is some minor inconsistency about pumping air out. Yet you keep on using people who did not see gassings taking place, as evidence to there not being any gassings. The witnesses have been trested in multiple courts, by historians and journalists and they are corroborated and none cracked and confessed to lying.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 14, 2021 22:36:36 GMT
Nessie wrote:
No, Bomba wasn't "taken away" during the gassing process. He plainly stated that he stepped outside the gas chamber for a few minutes while the victims were gassed, the bodies removed and then returned to the gas chamber to resume cutting the hair of a new batch of Jews. How the hell was he to observe a gassing in a hermetically sealed gas chamber unless he remained inside with the victims? In that case he would be dead. He claims that he was outside, looking at the gas chamber while the victims were executed. Why do you keep claiming that Bomba didn't witness any gassing/suffocations?
Hilberg is one of your vaunted historians and Zundel was convicted of a bogus "hate crime". Namely distributing the booklet, "Did Six Million Really Die?". Of course you believe that the "gubbermint" should be able to regulate our thoughts and words just like in Orwell's "1984". You are no doubt thankful that your holyhoax is protected by censorship laws in most western countries. What a good little stooge you are.
Czarny claimed that the bodies burned quite nicely due to the chemical in blood and that was years after WW II. No grates or pyres necessary. Just flic your bic and and the cadavers go "whoosh".
So now you've morphed your pyres on grates to just pyres. Tell me, is a "pyre" really just a pile of cadavers?
Wiernik said that everyone inside the chamber was dead after 25-30 minutes. Bomba also said that the Jews were killed with a vacuum.
At one time or another it was agreed that people were killed with steam, a vacuum, diesel engine exhaust and then lastly, the exhaust from a gasoline engine. Of course Zyklon B was used at AB.
No, you keep insisting that people who did witness gassing didn't actually see any gassing.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 15, 2021 15:05:20 GMT
Nessie wrote: No, Bomba wasn't "taken away" during the gassing process. He plainly stated that he stepped outside the gas chamber for a few minutes while the victims were gassed, the bodies removed and then returned to the gas chamber to resume cutting the hair of a new batch of Jews. How the hell was he to observe a gassing in a hermetically sealed gas chamber unless he remained inside with the victims? In that case he would be dead. He claims that he was outside, looking at the gas chamber while the victims were executed. Why do you keep claiming that Bomba didn't witness any gassing/suffocations? I interpret what he said to mean he, himself, was never directly outside the gas chambers, as a gassing took place. If you want to argue he was immediately outside, so be it. His claim about air being pumped out, so that people suffocated, is the same claim made by Rajchman. www.whale.to/b/kues9.htmlBomba "No, that is as short as it was, because when in Treblinka they stopped giving in poison or other kinds of poison things to gas them, they had a pump pumping out the air from the chamber. Naturally, without air the women had to be choked and fall on each other to catch the breath from each other. But it was impossible, and in a very short time, maximum 2 minutes, they were all quiet until the other door opened up..." Rajchman "Once the people were inside, the cabins were hermetically sealed, and the air pumped out with machine (poison gas was used later). Thus the victims were suffocated to death. They remained in the cabins for 10 to 20 minutes" Bomba goes on to say that process was stopped and just gas was used, and Rajchman said it was replaced with pumping air out and gas in. My reading of their testimony is that Bomba was not there when it happened, by Rajchman was. Christie was defending a client against claims made about him. It is a standard tactic to try and discredit witnesses. Christie failed, and his client lost. Hilberg's credibility remains intact. Czarny gave highly emotive evidence at the Demjanjuk trial, and was even warned by the Judge about his claims. Because of the time gap, I would not consider him to be a reliable witness, hence you never see me using him as evidence. No, the cremations started in the graves and were then switched to the pyre system developed by Floss. That is typical German ingenuity, find a more efficient method. Bomba never used the word vacuum, he said people were suffocated. In any case, ALL the witnesses agree, deaths were inside chambers and involved a form of suffocation, whether that was by CO, steam or pumping the air out or combination. That is like ALL witnesses agreeing a gun was used, they just disagree on what type of gun was used. Those methods all involve causing the people inside the chambers to die of lack of oxygen. We only disagree on Bomba and whether or not he was immediately outside the gas chambers when gassings took place.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 15, 2021 16:33:42 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Zundel was convicted of one charge and acquitted of the other. Here is the charge for which he was found guilty.
That was in 1985 and of course there's now not even the pretense of free speech in Canada. You have no use for free speech and would revel in the burning of Mattogno's books. What a good little Zionist arse-kissing fascist you are. Personally I find your political convictions to be disgusting.
Hilberg came away from being cross examined by Christie with his tail between his legs. He later came up with his lame theory that the order to commence the holyhoax was given via telepathy. His new theory was then shredded further by Dr. Faurisson. Hilberg retained his credibility my shiny hiney.
Czarny gave his testimony about the flammable blood chemical in the Florida deportation hearing for Feodor Fedorenko. He wasn't admonished by the judge. That occurred in Israel during the Demjanjuk trial. Your Google inspired excuse just fell on it's ass. Just curious but why do you say that Bomba, Rajchman et al. are credible but Czarny isn't? His tale of burning blood is no different from Rajchman's tale of burning blood.
So, you admit that not everyone claimed that the cadavers were cremated by piling bodies on grates. Neither is Floss's alleged grate system capable of cremating 2,500-3,000 cadavers at a time.
Uh-huh, Bomba said that the air was pumped out and people died but he didn't use the magic word "vacuum". Got it.
Why does one witness who claims that a victim was killed by a pistol and another who claims that the victim is shot with an eight inch howitzer and another claims that the victim was shot with .600 nitro express double gun are all telling the truth?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 15, 2021 17:07:27 GMT
Nessie wrote: Zundel was convicted of one charge and acquitted of the other. Here is the charge for which he was found guilty. That was in 1985 and of course there's now not even the pretense of free speech in Canada. You have no use for free speech and would revel in the burning of Mattogno's books. What a good little Zionist arse-kissing fascist you are. Personally I find your political convictions to be disgusting. I am against denial laws and my comment on another forum about burning Mattogno's books was an ironic comment. Hilberg did not mean actual telepathy and his credibility remains with other academics. Your thoughts are unimportant. Please link to the Czarny testimony in the Fedorenko hearing. I did not find anything other than news references to the Demjanjuk trial. The reason why I do not use Czarny is because all I have heard from him is highly emotive Demjanjuk trial, which was many years after the event, far more so than testimony from Wiernik and Rajchman. I have never read a witness who only states bodies were burned in the graves, I have only read testimony about them being burned in graves and then on grates, or just on the grates. How do you know how many bodies can be cremated using Floss's system? You are no expert and you rely on argument, not evidence. Correct. There is a big difference between removing enough air for lots of people crammed into a small space to suffocate and to create a vacuum. That is a false analogy. All the witnesses claim people died inside chambers. There is some disagreement on how, but all involve suffocation. That makes their claims the equivalent of all witnesses say a pistol was used, but they disagree on its caliber.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 16, 2021 9:10:02 GMT
Nessie claims that Hilberg wasn't humiliated by Christie at the Zundel trial. Here is an excerpt from the trial. The entire article can be read at: aaargh.vho.org/engl/ancestors/RH85toronto2.htmlThis is an exchange between Christie and Hilberg. Further into the cross examination the judge can be seen to intervene on behalf of Hilberg. Hilberg goes Wiernik's ridiculous claim that 400 to 500 people could fit into a 25 square meter room by claiming that 700 to 800 would fit quite nicely inside the 25 square meter room. The judge then intervened to save Hilberg further embarrassment.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 16, 2021 9:32:33 GMT
Nessie claims that Hilberg wasn't humiliated by Christie at the Zundel trial. Here is an excerpt from the trial. The entire article can be read at: aaargh.vho.org/engl/ancestors/RH85toronto2.htmlThis is an exchange between Christie and Hilberg. Further into the cross examination the judge can be seen to intervene on behalf of Hilberg. Hilberg goes Wiernik's ridiculous claim that 400 to 500 people could fit into a 25 square meter room by claiming that 700 to 800 would fit quite nicely inside the 25 square meter room. The judge then intervened to save Hilberg further embarrassment. Hilberg is agreeing with Christie, that some witness claims about the gas chambers, for example, how many people were packed into the gas chambers, should not be taken literally and are likely exaggerated. I also agree with them. Why are you the only one who thinks the claim should be taken literally and that the historians and lawyers are wrong?
All Christie has done is point out there are credibility issues with some claims and Hilberg has agreed. How is that a humiliation? Hilberg knows about those issues.
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 16, 2021 9:41:02 GMT
how many people were packed into the gas chambers, should not be taken literally and are likely exaggerated. How many do you think should be packed into a gas chamber for optimum performance.?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 16, 2021 9:43:25 GMT
how many people were packed into the gas chambers, should not be taken literally and are likely exaggerated. How many do you think should be packed into a gas chamber for optimum performance.? Not too many. Not too few. It should be just the right number.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 16, 2021 9:44:15 GMT
What Hilberg said about Gerstein; aaargh.vho.org/engl/ancestors/RH85toronto2.html""Well, counsel," said Hilberg, "at the risk of offending every lawyer in this room, I don't go by whether a statement is sworn to or not. Certain people may make truthful statements not sworn to; others may make statements that are not based upon fact, even though sworn to; some people are not aware of the fact that they make misstatements. There are all kinds of possibilities here... I think that Gerstein was somewhat given to great excitability... I would not characterize it a lie, because a lie is a deliberate falsehood. I don't know whether, in his mind, this was a deliberate falsehood. The fact that you characterized him, yourself, as not quite with it, what can you say about his motivations?" The historian Hilberg shows he is well aware of witness credibility issues. He also shows how he uses corroboration to determine what happened; ""I would say the following," said Hilberg, "When a man has been the commander of a concentration camp and is wounded, the question of whether he may or may not be interrogated is essentially a medical question. Whether the physicians were consulted or not, I have no way of knowing. When I look at the document - and I did look at it - I could use it or not use it, depending, once again, as to whether or not the information contained in it seems to be credible, plausible, corroborated, confirmed or not." and ""Well, I consider that a bit fanciful because I have never seen it corroborated, mentioned anywhere, the particular detail that you have just read," said Hilberg." and "... I would be very, very careful in the use of certain statements, that I would put Gerstein's statement as one that one must be most careful about. Parts are corroborated; others are pure nonsense," said Hilberg. He agreed that he took parts which in his view were credible and left out parts that in his view were incredible: "That's a fair assessment, yeah." The issues I have discussed with you about the credibility of witnesses on many occasions, are being discussed in the exchange between Hilberg and Christie. Christie and Hilberg acknowledge credibility issues, but Hilberg points out that evidence is corroborated. Hilberg explains to Christie that corroboration is how overall claims are assessed as truthful, despite the various credibility issues over claims by witnesses such as Gerstein.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 16, 2021 9:47:01 GMT
How many do you think should be packed into a gas chamber for optimum performance.? Not too many. Not too few. It should be just the right number. We will never know that number. Christie and Hilberg agree, witnesses likely exaggerated. I have been telling you that for a long time now.
"Christie asked Hilberg whether he considered Gerstein's statement - that at Belzec and Treblinka nobody bothered to make a count and that in fact about 25 million people, not only Jews, were actually killed - was credible? "Well, parts of it are true, and other parts of it are sheer exaggeration, manifest and obvious exaggeration. To me, the important point made in this statement is that there were no counting at the point at which people entered the gas chamber," said Hilberg. So you take the obviously exaggerated part out and use the part that you thought was credible, that there was no counting. Right?, asked Christie. "Yes.""
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 16, 2021 9:49:18 GMT
Not too many, Not too few. It should be just the right number. Can you quantify the number for a perfect gassing event please in this space. How can they throw children on top when the ceiling is so low. Are thes Nazis demigods or somthing?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 16, 2021 9:51:11 GMT
Not too many, Not too few. It should be just the right number. Can you quantify the number for a perfect gassing event please in this space. How can they throw children on top when the ceiling is so low. Are thes Nazis demigods or somthing? There are too many assumptions being made to provide anything other than a guesstimate. We do not know the precise size of each gas chamber, or even if they were all the same size.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 16, 2021 9:53:55 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Apparently Nessie hasn't bothered to read even a little further beyond my quote. Hilberg goes on to agree that Gerstein's estimates were indeed possible.
It was at that point that the judge intervened on Hilberg's behalf.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 16, 2021 10:11:20 GMT
Nessie wrote:
At the military tribunals people were on trial for their lives. Several hundred were in fact executed but Nessie, with apparent callous indifference, declares that no exact information is required. Guestimates and cherry-picked snippets from obviously lying witnesses are perfectly acceptable. Nessie takes the Jew's position that Germans needed to be executed so credible evidence and proof were dispensed with as mere formalities.
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