Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 12, 2021 17:33:42 GMT
Why can I not view that thread? Why is there so much censorship on this new forum? So much for wanting a โfree debateโ and other similar weasel words. Hi Goody, hope I can help. You cannot view the thread until you earn the status that comes with being responsible. This Forum says "Open Debate" not a 'melee" or some other synonym.; you have to earn the right to speak if you have integrity. It gets very confusing. Apparently we can discuss TII here, but not when it comes to transports to and from the camp, which has to be discussed here;
or the gas chambers or graves, which have to be discussed here;
which makes this part of the forum pretty much redundant, since the key issues are now off topic.
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Post by ๐๐๐ on Dec 12, 2021 18:29:17 GMT
It gets very confusing. Apparently we can discuss TII here, but not when it comes to transports to and from the camp, which has to be discussed here. I am sure no one minds the odd line about transports in the context of the camp so long as it is not the main issue. What is not wanted, it seems is the spiel or a variation of this. I am sure that all viewers are well aware of the issue above without it constantly repeated. There are many other things more important than the mantra "where did they go".
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 13, 2021 11:33:25 GMT
Nessie wrote:
There are fragmentary records of deportees leaving Treblinka. There is credible testimony of deportees leaving Treblinka in both small groups of 100 and up and by the trainload. That is KNOWN. How then does your wail of, "Where did they goooo?" prove that all of the Jews who were sent to Treblinka were murdered by steam/CO/vacuum?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 13, 2021 12:31:01 GMT
Nessie wrote: There are fragmentary records of deportees leaving Treblinka. There is credible testimony of deportees leaving Treblinka in both small groups of 100 and up and by the trainload. That is KNOWN. How then does your wail of, "Where did they goooo?" prove that all of the Jews who were sent to Treblinka were murdered by steam/CO/vacuum? The occasional smaller transport leaving TII, along with witness claims of being taken to labour camps in Poland to work, is evidence of the same selection process reported at the other AR camps and A-B. It disproves revisionist claims of regular mass transports to the east.
That you cannot evidence mass departures, does not prove gassings, but it does logically support the evidence for gassings. You don't understand logic, so you will not understand that point.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 13, 2021 12:55:48 GMT
There are testimonies by at least three (3) eyewitnesses of entire trainloads of deportees leaving T-II. The lack of records proves nothing except there aren't any records. Claiming that the lack of records somehow proves that all of the Jews sent to T-II were steamed/gassed/suffocated is horse frocky.
How many times do you have to be told that conflicting or false evidence isn't PROOF that the Germans committed genocide at Treblinka? NOBODY has presented any proof of the mass graves or proof of the existence of 2,000-2,500 tons of cremains. Your evidence is NOT conclusive. It does NOT rise to the level of PROOF. What don't you understand about that and how many more times are you going to whine about your "evidence"?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 13, 2021 13:10:55 GMT
There are testimonies by at least three (3) eyewitnesses of entire trainloads of deportees leaving T-II. The lack of records proves nothing except there aren't any records. Claiming that the lack of records somehow proves that all of the Jews sent to T-II were steamed/gassed/suffocated is horse frocky. I DO NOT CLAIM THAT THE LACK OF RECORDS OF MASS TRANSPORTS PROVES GASSINGS AT TII. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD THAT? The lack of evidence of mass transports is part of the circumstantial evidence, that goes along with the eyewitness, documentary and physical evidence for gassings. ALL of that evidence logically converges to prove gassings. On its own, each piece of evidence is insufficient to prove gassings. It is only when taken together, that ALL of the evidence proves what happened. The claims by everyone who saw gassings, is that an engine was used. There is ONLY ONE eyewitness who said the engine was used to pump out the air, in ONE attempt that DID NOT work, and otherwise prior to gas being pumped in. ALL the other eyewitnesses said gas was pumped in. The rumours of steam and vacuums used to kill inside the chambers can be dismissed, as should any rumour. That is your opinion, which is not shared by any academic or court. They all accept there is sufficient evidence to prove gassings, mass graves and pyres. Given the choice between academics and lawyers and you, I chose them, because your methodology is flawed and elsewhere, your posts reveal an agenda and bias against Jews.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 13, 2021 14:07:44 GMT
Nessie attempts to maintain the fiction that Rajchman claimed that there was only one attempt to pump the air from the gas chamber. I've quoted what Rajchman said about pumping the air from the gas chamber more times than I can count but Nessie continues his lie that Rajchman only claimed to have seen the air pumped from the chamber one time. Rachel Auerbach supported Rajchman's claim but Nessie will shriek, "She wasn't an eyewitness". No, but she did confirm what Rajchman claimed. Bomba the barber who cut hair inside the gas chamber claimed that a vacuum was used to successfully suffocate the Jews but even though he worked inside the gas chamber, Nessie shrieks, "He wasn't an eyewitness".
Then Nessie avoids my request that he show some proof that the eeevul Narzis murdered the poor Jews at Treblinka, buried them, exhumed them and then cremated them by the blatant logical fallacy of an appeal to authority. "Courts, academics and lawyers" say so, so it must be true. Nessie obviously hasn't any problem with logical fallacies when he uses them. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 13, 2021 19:47:38 GMT
Nessie attempts to maintain the fiction that Rajchman claimed that there was only one attempt to pump the air from the gas chamber. I've quoted what Rajchman said about pumping the air from the gas chamber more times than I can count but Nessie continues his lie that Rajchman only claimed to have seen the air pumped from the chamber one time. I am differentiating from the one attempt to just pump air out, that DID NOT WORK and his claim that air was pumped out before gas was pumped in, which is a different claim. Why do you inists that vacuum is one of the possibles, when the evidence is that it was not used to kill? Neither was steam, that was just a rumour. You have been totally unable to get to grips with the differences in witness evidence, which explain why historians agree an engine was used to pump in fumes and have dismissed the claims about vacuums and steam. Even Rajchman agrees that exhaust from an engine was used to kill, he just adds a step before that. No other eyewitness does. Rajchman is uncorroborated and his claim about air being pumped out can be dismissed as wrong. Rumour and hearsay is not the same as eyewitness evidence. Rumour and hearsay should be dismissed, as it is far too unreliable. Only evidence that is corroborated should be accepted. Not being an eyewitness means neither person's evidence should be accepted as corroboration. Rumour and hearsay is not reliable. How is showing you the evidence that is available online, that is used by academics to prove mass gassings, avoiding showing you the proof? I am not appealing to authority, I am showing you the evidence from eyewitnesses, documents, archaeology etc. I am not using arguments from logical fallacies.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 14, 2021 5:30:15 GMT
Nessie wrote:
On another thread Nessie has claimed that every witness on his laundry list of witnesses told the truth about mass murder, genocide at Treblinka. That includes Wiernik, Rajchman and Bomba who he deems to be reliable witnesses. Nessie immediately contradicts himself by claiming that those who claim to know about an event but didn't have a direct line of sight on it are simply repeating rumors and hearsay and aren't reliable. It's obviously impossible to have an intelligent debate with someone who is that delusional about those who claim to be witnesses.
Nessie further excuses the clangers of the witnesses by claiming that they're only engaging in hyperbole, or they're exaggerating or misestimating their claims. Thus his German eyewitness to the magic Jew barbeque states that it was relatively small, set upon rocks and could cremate 200 cadavers per cremation and Wiernik's barbeque grate which was up to 150 meters long, set on concrete pylons and could cremate 2,500-3,000 cadavers per session are the same. Nessie claims that both witnesses are reliable since they both claim that cadavers were cremated. The discrepancy between the size and capacity of the cremation grate and how it was constructed are just minor misestimations (or whatever) and have no bearing on their truthful statements that cadavers were cremated.
That is the equivalent of one witness claiming that a car was driven off a cliff and three people were killed, another saying that school bus was hit by a train and 30 children were killed and a third stating that an airliner crashed and 300 people were killed but since there was an accident and people were killed then all of the accounts of the accident are reliable and accurate. That is simply not rational.
Of course it "worked" but it took 48 hours and a few Jews still "showed signs of life" thus the Germans deemed the experiment a failure. It took too long and wasn't 100% effective for killing Jews. The fact remains that Rajchman claimed that Jews were killed with vacuum. How a few Jews managed to survive in a hermetically sealed chamber for two days let alone in a vacuum chamber is a mystery. That little fantasy ranks right up there with Rajchman's claim that the blood of 250,000 Jews who were buried in 40 feet deep pits accidentally caught fire and burned for an entire day and a night. Do ya' think he might have "exaggerated" just a little?
In any event it should be obvious to even the dimmest bulb that Nessie's claim that all of the witnesses on his laundry list are reliable and truthful is a load of pure horse frocky. Trying to debate with someone who makes such bizarre and irrational claims doesn't fall within the realm of possibility.
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 14, 2021 6:25:49 GMT
- I am differentiating from the one attempt to just pump air out, that DID NOT WORK and his claim that air was pumped out before gas was pumped in, which is a different claim. Why do you inists that vacuum is one of the possibles, when the evidence is that it was not used to kill? Neither was steam, that was just a rumour.
- Rajchman is uncorroborated and his claim about air being pumped out can be dismissed as wrong.
- Only evidence that is corroborated should be accepted.
- Rumour and hearsay is not reliable.
- I am not using arguments from logical fallacies.
Nessie believes with great passion the stories given by partisan agents, whose aim is to disrupt anything German by any means. By their nature they have to collude and lie. There was no corroboration only collaboration in lying. Nessie is saying that the pressure was equalized; the incoming gas being lethal. Of course they would have to have done that with the steam chambers as well to ensure that the cooking process did not result in a boiler explosion. Not sure if a steam chamber of bricks could take 100 lb sq inch pressure; could hurt the occupants inside the chamber. All of the claims are equally as absurd but if the poster Nessie wishes to believe them that is his choice; most discerning readers might not. The last two points are off topic and irrelevant to this post.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 14, 2021 12:18:40 GMT
Nessie wrote: On another thread Nessie has claimed that every witness on his laundry list of witnesses told the truth about mass murder, genocide at Treblinka. That includes Wiernik, Rajchman and Bomba who he deems to be reliable witnesses. Nessie immediately contradicts himself by claiming that those who claim to know about an event but didn't have a direct line of sight on it are simply repeating rumors and hearsay and aren't reliable. It's obviously impossible to have an intelligent debate with someone who is that delusional about those who claim to be witnesses. Wiernik and Rajchman are reliable witnesses to the gassings, which they saw. Bomba is a reliable witness to the process prior to gassings, which for his part was cutting hair, which he saw. All three witnesses speak about other parts of the process they did not see. They tell a mix of hearsay and eyewitness evidence. It does not matter how often that is explained to you, you are unable to understand. They are behaving as witnesses do. You have no experience of dealing with witnesses and arrogantly think you are the expert!!! No, it is the equivalent of all the witness saying a bus drove off a cliff and the variation is how big the bus was and how many passengers it carried. They all said the pyre was a grate above wood. That is the same as they all say a bus went off a cliff. They then vary as to the size of the pyre and how many people were cremated. Meaning, it did not work, it was a failure. Why are you claiming vacuum was used, when the one witness to it said IT DID NOT WORK? ?? There was a rumour about a vacuum being used, possible caused by Rajchman and then you ignore Bomba also said that gassings was the method used. If you logically piece the evidence together and take into account hearsay, it is obvious that gassings is the actual method used and the vacuum claims should be dismissed as wrong. The witnesses often lack credibility due to their use of hyperbole etc, but a thorough logical assessment of what they said and corroboration means it can be determined they are reliable about the main events of gassings, graves and pyres.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 14, 2021 12:21:11 GMT
- I am differentiating from the one attempt to just pump air out, that DID NOT WORK and his claim that air was pumped out before gas was pumped in, which is a different claim. Why do you inists that vacuum is one of the possibles, when the evidence is that it was not used to kill? Neither was steam, that was just a rumour.
- Rajchman is uncorroborated and his claim about air being pumped out can be dismissed as wrong.
- Only evidence that is corroborated should be accepted.
- Rumour and hearsay is not reliable.
- I am not using arguments from logical fallacies.
Nessie believes with great passion the stories given by partisan agents, whose aim is to disrupt anything German by any means. By their nature they have to collude and lie. There was no corroboration only collaboration in lying. Nessie is saying that the pressure was equalized; the incoming gas being lethal. Of course they would have to have done that with the steam chambers as well to ensure that the cooking process did not result in a boiler explosion. Not sure if a steam chamber of bricks could take 100 lb sq inch pressure; could hurt the occupants inside the chamber. All of the claims are equally as absurd but if the poster Nessie wishes to believe them that is his choice; most discerning readers might not. The last two points are off topic and irrelevant to this post. It is an on topic discussion about the reliability of the witness claims as to what happened inside TII. Revisionists do not want to believe what EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO WORKED INSIDE TII HAS TO SAY. So excuses are trundled out as to why they are supposedly all lying.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 14, 2021 17:23:06 GMT
Nessie wrote:
All three witnesses told the truth about the gassing procedure except Rajchman who, like Bomba, didn't witness any attempt to suffocate the Jews with a vacuum. I don't know how Nessie reaches that conclusion since Rajchman describes the process in detail and Bomba, who supposedly worked inside the gas chamber describes how a vacuum was used. Apparently Nessie has confused people who witnessed a procedure with people who experienced a procedure. Of course anyone who had experienced the suffocation procedure wouldn't be alive to describe it.
That's about as good as an in your face outright lie as it gets. Any witnesses who testified in such a manner would be torn to shreds in an actual court.
Continuing with Nessie's analogy he's claiming that a bus drove off a cliff but one bus had fifteen (15) times the capacity than the other. However, since the witnesses both used the magic word "bus" they're both telling the truth. I call horse frocky. That's like comparing the passenger capacity of a minivan to that of a DC-8 or Boeing 707 passenger jet.
No, all witnesses DON'T claim that the method of cremating Jews was all the same. In perusing your laundry list I found one witness who said that the Jews were simply burned in a pit a la how the bodies were burned in the lazarett. Another claimed that an elaborate grate was constructed in a 3(?) meter deep pit. Another claimed that bodies were thrown into freight cars with quicklime and trundled about until they dissolved. I'm sure that Nessie will shriek, "rumors, hearsay" though. What we must bear in mind is that ALL witnesses told the truth no matter how fanciful or bizarre their fantasy.
Let me see if I have this right. Are you claiming that no Jews were killed in the vacuum experiment as related by Rajchman? Or that the vacuum process did kill Jews but was too slow and inefficient to suit the needs of the Germans?
Why are you claiming that Bomba didn't see any executions because he only worked inside the gas/vacuum chamber and left the building during the execution process? If one were to witness the execution process from the standpoint of the Jews inside the chambers then that person would be dead too. Your objections make no sense.
IOW, the witnesses lied but told the truth. Logic from holyhoax la-la land.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 14, 2021 18:03:27 GMT
Nessie wrote: All three witnesses told the truth about the gassing procedure except Rajchman who, like Bomba, didn't witness any attempt to suffocate the Jews with a vacuum. I don't know how Nessie reaches that conclusion since Rajchman describes the process in detail and Bomba, who supposedly worked inside the gas chamber describes how a vacuum was used. Apparently Nessie has confused people who witnessed a procedure with people who experienced a procedure. Of course anyone who had experienced the suffocation procedure wouldn't be alive to describe it. Wiernik and Rajchman primarily worked at the gas chambers and saw gassings. Bomba said he worked for a short time at a gas chambers and specifically stated he had to leave when there were gassings, so he did not see any, then he worked at another building. It is obvious to anyone who is the eyewitness and who is not. They gave evidence during trials and to journalists and were not torn apart, because their evidence was corroborated and those lawyers and journalists, unlike you, know how witnesses behave. Your claim is bogus and part of your la-la land fantasy. Your original analogy was false, because you equated different things, whereas all the witnesses said there were pyres on grates. You have now had to back down. Witnesses are notoriously bad at estimating numbers of people, so the differences are not as outrageous as you claim. Your ignorance of chronology is staggering. Witnesses said the first attempts at cremations were in the graves. They did not work. Then the pyre method was developed by Erich Floss. According to Rajchman it was too slow and inefficient to be a workable method of killing in the chambers. That is how we know the vacuum rumours are wrong. Wiernik said "Often people were kept in the gas chambers overnight with the motor not turned on at all. Overcrowding and lack of air killed many of them in a very painful way. However, many survived the ordeal of such nights; particularly the children showed a remarkable degree of resistance. They were still alive when they were dragged out of the chambers in the morning, but revolvers used by the Germans made short work of them...." You should be able to see how that could also cause a rumour of the use of vacuums to have circulated. Your are being stupid. There were Nazis and Sonderkommandos who were immediately outside the chambers when the gassings took place and then cleared those chambers of the dead. Of those Sonderkommados, only Rajchman and Wiernik gave evidence. The others, such as Bomba, were elsewhere in the camp when gassings took place. Bomba is a witness to seeing inside a chambers, but not when in was being used for gassings, instead when it was used for hair cutting, prior to gassings. IOW, the witnesses lied but told the truth. Logic from holyhoax la-la land.[/quote][/quote] If you knew about witnesses, you would know a witness can lack credibility, but still be truthful. Credibility is about the way a witness gives evidence and how it appears. Since you know nothing about witnesses, you do not understand the difference between credibility, reliability and truthfulness. That is not surprising, since you have failed to understand the simple difference bewteen hearsay and eyewitness evidence.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 14, 2021 19:54:47 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Listen up, Klown. Bomba stated plainly and unequivocally that he worked as a barber INSIDE a gas chamber. He left the chamber during the execution process and returned after the bodies had been removed. What don't you understand about that? Was he supposed to remain in the gas chamber while the victims were being gassed/suffocated?
No witnesses were rigorously cross examined in your marsupial events until the Zundel trials when Doug Christie absolutely shredded such fools as Hilberg. So much so that Hilberg went into seclusion after his humiliations and refused to testify at the 2nd Zundel trial. Get your head out.
Whether it was planes, trains and automobiles or buses is irrelevant. Your attempt to equate 200 being cremated with 3,000 being cremated is pure bullshit. Neither did all witnesses claim that cremations took place on grates. More bullshit.
Czarny claimed that cremations took place due to a flammable substance in blood. Your "chronology" is more bullshit.
So, Rajchman claimed that Jews were killed with a vacuum. He was an eyewitness so no rumor about that. All of your weasel dodging has been to no avail. You claim that Wiernik started the rumors about murders by vacuum. Wiernik didn't publish his fantasies until 1944 after he supposedly escaped from Treblinka. How did that start a rumor in Treblinka in 1942-43? More bullshit from Nessie.
That's NOT what Bomba testified. He cut hair INSIDE the gas chamber, left the chamber during the gassing process and returned to the chamber after the bodies had been removed. You're full of more shit than a Christmas goose.
I DO know about witnesses from personal experience. I've appeared on behalf of other defendants and acted as pro se defense on the charge of carrying a concealed weapon. That was in California and yes, I did win and got my weapon back. A .45 caliber derringer. Got the gun back but not the ammo. A small victory for the vindictive cops.
In non-marsupial trials witnesses are NOT allowed to indulge in lies and fantasies. The most recent example of that was Grosskreutz's testimony at the Rittenhouse trial where he was forced to admit that Rittenhouse didn't fire his weapon until Grosskreutz aimed his pistol at Rittenhouse. Your maundering about "credibility, reliability and truthfulness" is bullshit. At trials witnesses are sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. You are simply trying to weasel dodge that fact. Your claim that I don't know the difference between evidence and hearsay, is just more bullshit.
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