Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 4, 2021 0:07:10 GMT
Amongst all of the name calling and obfuscations, can anyone explain the fatuous lies of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka?
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Post by Hรผntinger on Nov 4, 2021 0:32:01 GMT
Amongst all of the name calling and obfuscations, can anyone explain the fatuous lies of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka? The claim is based on a few eyewitnesses and coerced statements with no satisfactory corroborating evidence; much of this evidence appears corroborating due to hind sight alterations of scripts and loss of relevant documents. The chain of evidence is clearly broken and deliberately tampered with. The closest people get to evidence are the few train schedules most of which have disappeared, which if available and examined might well indicate other possibilities. There is little doubt that hundred of thousands of people perished, which is a sad affair, but not in the manner claimed. There is little doubt that hundreds of thousands of the alleged victims stayed in Poland, a similar amount crossing the border at the Bug river to work in numerous places; At one time, it was thought only a few work camps, juden lagers and konzentrationslager existed east of the Bug, but in Belarus alone there were over 500 camps; the total if Ostland and Ukraine are counted would be considerably more; many of these camps are still unknown. Poland had over 600 camps;The approximate number of camps are known, but the details of names etc are lost in the mists of time. The camps in Latvia would have been the hardest, with people living in cardboard huts; it is hard enough in winter when the power goes out in modern times let alone facing an Arctic winter in a cardboard hut in wet clothes, minimal heating. To answer Turnagain's point, people lie for many reasons, usually to make money or for a political cause;Treblinka has a monument on site; if people wish to grieve over perceived victims instead of examining the real hardships their relatives suffered in Latvia then that is their affair. If people went missing at the camp as unlikely as it is, or passed through the camp and perished in the ice, snow, perhaps disease and gunfire it really does not matter except of historical accuracy; the Treblinka extermination story is really no more than the Ostrich effect, where one buries their head in the sands of time and illusion, hiding the true horrors that occurred. The horrors were not deliberate, though it is a fact that people were euthanized as per law ( aktion 14F13; this was only in the hundreds not in the thousands as claimed. The euthanasia events were exaggerated beyond belief. If they believe that then so be it, but the reality lies in the Snows of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania; the cold hard truth. That story is worth telling and there is information from Dutch workers, laboring alongside their jรผdische workmates.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Nov 5, 2021 12:57:19 GMT
What did happen inside TII, 1942-3? Show your evidence from eyewitnesses who worked inside the camp, or were otherwise at the camp, and any documents directly pertaining to the camp, and any physical and archaeological evidence gathered from the camp site.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 5, 2021 13:24:35 GMT
What did happen inside TII, 1942-3? Show your evidence from eyewitnesses who worked inside the camp, or were otherwise at the camp, and any documents directly pertaining to the camp, and any physical and archaeological evidence gathered from the camp site. People weren't gassed/asphyxiated in hermetically sealed chambers, buried in giant graves, exhumed and then cremated on any magic Jew barbeque and you know it, Nessie.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Nov 5, 2021 13:48:28 GMT
What did happen inside TII, 1942-3? Show your evidence from eyewitnesses who worked inside the camp, or were otherwise at the camp, and any documents directly pertaining to the camp, and any physical and archaeological evidence gathered from the camp site. People weren't gassed/asphyxiated in hermetically sealed chambers, buried in giant graves, exhumed and then cremated on any magic Jew barbeque and you know it, Nessie. Until contemporaneous evidence directly relating to TII is produced to prove something else happened, then I do not believe anything else happened. Unlike you, I do not believe what is not evidenced and proved.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 5, 2021 14:04:46 GMT
You have NO viable evidence that ~850,000 were gassed and disposed of at Treblinka. It's been proven repeatedly that the claims made for Treblinka are impossibilities. Unlike you, I don't believe in magic.
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Post by been_there on Nov 5, 2021 14:07:17 GMT
Amongst all of the name calling and obfuscations, can anyone explain the fatuous lies of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka? That is a good question. I regard it as revealing that โbelieversโ and defenders of the compulsory and protected โofficial narrativeโ on T2 can not answer it, either logically or honestly. Prevarication, avoidance and ad hominem abuse is the standard response. Q. Why would a narrative that allegedly has irrefutable evidence supporting it need to resort to such unreasonable behaviour? A. Such an evidenced narrative would not. ๐ค Only an unevidenced and irrational belief-system would.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Nov 5, 2021 14:34:50 GMT
You have NO viable evidence that ~850,000 were gassed and disposed of at Treblinka. It's been proven repeatedly that the claims made for Treblinka are impossibilities. Unlike you, I don't believe in magic. You have no evidence at all, from any source (note you had a qualifier that accepts there is evidence of gassings, burials and cremations, you just do not think it is "viable") of regular mass transports back out of TII.
Even if you had proved the way all of the witnesses described gassings, graves and cremations are impossible, which you have not, that does not mean therefore no gassings, graves or cremations, your argument is a logical fail.
You believe in magic, in that you believe c860,000 people left TII and were transported and accommodated elsewhere, without that resulting in any evidence at all.
Until you produce evidence as to what did happen inside TII and the fate of the people sent there, no rational, logical person is going to believe your claims.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Nov 5, 2021 14:39:21 GMT
Amongst all of the name calling and obfuscations, can anyone explain the fatuous lies of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka? That is a good question. I regard it as revealing that โbelieversโ and defenders of the compulsory and protected โofficial narrativeโ on T2 can not answer it, either logically or honestly. Prevarication, avoidance and ad hominem abuse is the standard response. Q. Why would a narrative that allegedly has irrefutable evidence supporting it need to resort to such unreasonable behaviour? A. Such an evidenced narrative would not. ๐ค Only an unevidenced and irrational belief-system would. When asked about what happened at TII, historians produce contemporaneous evidence from witnesses, documents, archaeology, physical items, photos and circumstantial evidence as to what happened. The response from revisionists is a series of arguments using logical fallacies and a refusal to evidence what did happen. Frustrations then boil over and discussions descend into abuse and name-calling.
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Post by been_there on Nov 5, 2021 14:49:57 GMT
...can anyone explain the fatuous lies of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka? Insistence on โcontemporaneous evidence directly relating to TIIโ is merely an avoidance of Turnagainโs question. It is basically arguing that โyou must believe those parts of the contradictory accounts that were alleged at the warโs end and which over the following years emerged as the โofficialโ story and which has been shored up ever since, after numerous discredited accounts were edited out and elements were cherry-picked to create the most credible versionโ, as that is what passes for โcontemporaneousโ. I.e. what passes for โcontemporaneous evidenceโ is what believers and/or defenders of the official narrative self-deludedly/deceitfully maintain has been arrived at by a โconvergenceโ after weeding out all the unsustainable and embarrassing nonsensical eye-witness (lie-witness?) testimony and post-war Soviet โinvestigationsโ. Those testimonies that Turnagain asked about. By this method of avoidance the still remaining and irrefutable empirical evidence showing no requisite ground disturbance or large enough mass graves for 850,000 at T2 is thus conveniently avoided. And therefore the mantra โI do not believe what is not evidenced and provedโ is shown to be either a self-justifying delusion or a deliberate deception. As that is EXACTLY what is being done and is being insisted others should do, viz. believing the official narrative despite the fact that the empirical evidence refutes it in so many particulars.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Nov 5, 2021 15:10:34 GMT
Turnagain's loaded question has not been avoided. At the moment, it cannot be answered. He is claiming all the witnesses lied. To prove a lie, he needs to prove what did happen. Hence, he is asked to produce evidence as to what did happen. I then gave him some simple advice on what counts as evidence, i.e. it has to be contemporaneous and not what he tries to pass off as evidence, which is his arguments using logical fallacies.
Turnagain can prove all of the known witnesses lied with evidence such as
- documents recording mass transports leaving TII on a regular basis and/or arriving at other places - physical/archaeological evidence to prove a lack of ground disturbances - other witnesses, who say they worked at TII or on the mass transports back out of TII
Once he has proved all of the witnesses lied, we can then answer his question.
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Post by been_there on Nov 5, 2021 15:53:17 GMT
Turnagain's loaded question has not been avoided. Yes Turnagainโs question defintely has been avoided by yourself. So to claim otherwise is either: 1.) a deception by you or 2.) a sign you are unable to comprehend simple sentences. He didnโt claim ALL the witnesses lied. But even if he had, if you could support with irrefutable empirical evidence available now, the T2 testimony claiming to have seen the process of mass-murdering, cremating and burying 850,000 Jews โ thus proving their anecdotal accounts โ then and ONLY THEN could you make your delusional or deceitful claim that unlike Turnagain you โonly believe what can be evidenced and provenโ. It is really quite a simple distinction. Surely a person claiming to have an M.A in History and to be trained and experienced in criminal investigation should be able to comprehend it? ๐ค
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Post by been_there on Nov 5, 2021 16:11:22 GMT
...can anyone explain the fatuous lies of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka? Related and implied is the question of WHY so many people who were actually at the Treblnka 2 camp would feel a need to make statements that have been shown to be physically impossible and to be deceptions that even the champions of the genocide narrative have chosen to reject and forget.
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Post by ๐๐๐ฌ๐ฌ๐ข๐ on Nov 5, 2021 16:15:31 GMT
Amongst all of the name calling and obfuscations, can anyone explain the fatuous lies of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka? In answer to been-there, the witnesses are not lying that TII was a death camp. The loaded question assumes that every single person who worked inside TII lied about it being a death camp, since there is no witness who worked there who states it served some other purpose.
The way revisionists examine the witness evidence, to determine if it is truthful or not, is based on a series of arguments using logical fallacies and ignores the evidence that corroborates the witnesses, such as documents recording mass arrivals and archaeology that has found large areas of disturbed ground, and the lack of any evidence of an alternative. That methodology is unique to "Holocaust denial" and is not accepted in any university or by any police investigation, where evidence is required to prove a claim.
The claim that all the witnesses lied because what they said is unbelievable is not logical. It assumes witnesses have far better recall than they do in reality, rarely make mistakes or exaggerate and that how something worked, can be reliably determined from how a witness describes it worked. Anyone, such a police officer, journalist or historian, who has training and experience regarding witness evidence understands that. Revisionists, who have no experience, do not understand.
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Post by been_there on Nov 5, 2021 16:32:45 GMT
...can anyone explain the fatuous lies of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka? In answer to been-there,... blah, blah, blah... Oh dear. You are just repeating your exact same statements. Further sign that the problem appears to be a lack of comprehension, thus the resort to just repeating yourself unintelligently. You are not only repeatedly avoiding Turnagainโs original question but now also my reply. As I just pointed out the self-evident fact that he didnโt claim ALL the T2 witnesses lied. E.g. he has often referred to the testimony of numerous witnesses being transited through T2 as accurate. OK. Last attempt to engage you in intelligent dialogue: can YOU explain those statements of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka which defy laws of physics, are refuted by the remaining empirical evidence at the site and some of which have even been accepted by believers and professional champions of the official narrative as false and therefore as lies? Do you understand yet? Do you need examples of such eye-witness (lie-witness?) testimony?
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