Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 20, 2022 16:40:58 GMT
Nessie wrote: The cherry-red discoloration is an effect of high levels of carboxyhemoglobin. Some people die at lower levels of COHb. The old or ill but most healthy people have high levels of COHb in fatal cases. That's why, "Cherry-red skin color, a very late indicator of significantly elevated carboxyhemoglobin levels, is associated with severe CO poisoning". You've been shown numerous sources that red/pink discoloration is the classical indicator of CO poisoning that presents prior to death. You weasel dodge that it is referred to as classic, but the sources do not say it is common and obvious. Indeed, they go to make it clear that it is not common and obvious. That is why you weasel dodge the NHS not listing it as a symptom for deaths that will occur in minutes. You know the sources! You just do not understand them. For example, this post from yesterday;
"Cherry-red skin color, a very late indicator of significantly elevated carboxyhemoglobin levels, is associated with severe CO poisoning...Cherry-red skin color is not a reliable sign of CO poisoning. Identifying patients with CO poisoning can be difficult, as symptoms are often vague.
Skin: Classic cherry red skin is rare (i.e., โWhen you're cherry red, you're deadโ); pallor is present more often." That states it is a "late indicator", normally associated with fatal gassings, but it is not "reliable" as symptoms are "vague". It specifically states cherry red skin is "rare" and it is more common to see "pallor", which is an unhealthy appearence. It goes on to say cherry red skin is seen when you are dead. When you are dead, lividity forms, so obviously the two are connected. I have shown you multiple sources that describe CO gassings as resulting in cherry red lividity. For example, this source has been used a few times in this thread;
"Unfortunately, it is often a postmortem examination that reveals such a bright red coloring." It is only on examining the body after death, that cherry red is obvious. You do not understand the medical evidence.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 20, 2022 18:04:19 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That is complete, specious bullsh!t. Here is the complete quote:
Flushed skin isn't USEFUL in diagnosing CO poisoning because it's an indicator that the patient is very near death. Most do die from such levels of COHb. Red/pink skin is a very reliable indicator of CO poisoning but also indicates that the patient is nearly dead and is unlikely to survive. Nessie tries to morph that into only dead victims of CO poisoning present the red/pink discoloration. As said before, that's specious bullsh!t.
Nessie's claim that the red/pink discoloration is rare derives from the fact that very few, less than 1% of CO poisoning victims who require emergency room/hospital admittance actually die from CO poisoning. IOW death from CO poisoning is rare.
Nessie completely weasel dodges his claim that the red/pink discoloration from CO poisoning is a result of livor mortis. Told ya' he would.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 20, 2022 18:28:08 GMT
Nessie wrote: That is complete, specious bullsh!t. Here is the complete quote: Flushed skin isn't USEFUL in diagnosing CO poisoning because it's an indicator that the patient is very near death. Most do die from such levels of COHb. Red/pink skin is a very reliable indicator of CO poisoning but also indicates that the patient is nearly dead and is unlikely to survive. Nessie tries to morph that into only dead victims of CO poisoning present the red/pink discoloration. As said before, that's specious bullsh!t. Nessie's claim that the red/pink discoloration is rare derives from the fact that very few, less than 1% of CO poisoning victims who require emergency room/hospital admittance actually die from CO poisoning. IOW death from CO poisoning is rare. Nessie completely weasel dodges his claim that the red/pink discoloration from CO poisoning is a result of livor mortis. Told ya' he would. "...it is often a postmortem examination that reveals such a bright red coloring."
Thank you for quoting a medical source that says what I said. Now, explain how quoting medical sources that reference cherry red skin seen at postmortems, is weasel dodging discussing livor mortis?
1 - people are subjected to very high levels of CO that kill them in a matter of minutes. Numerous medical sources, that reference levels of CO that will kill in a matter of minutes either do not reference cherry red skin, or say it is rare and vague or not obvious. No medical source warns rescuers to look out for cherry red skin as a sign death is imminent and that they are also now in danger of being poisoned.
2 - when people die, the blood stops pumping round their body and starts to pool, which starts to appear as lividity aka livor mortis after about 30 minutes, but takes hours to full form. Postmortems are normally hours, if not days after death, so lividity is fully formed. All references to postmortem refer to lividity as, surprise surprise, the blood in no longer being pumped around the body!!!!! When people die, their heart stops (news to you) and so the blood starts to pool. Unless a postmortem takes place minutes after death, when most of the blood is still spread around the body, which never happens, then postmortem references are about a body hours after death.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 20, 2022 19:07:16 GMT
Question for Nessie: Does COHb cause red/pink discoloration in CO poisoning victims?
Nessie said:
And:
The source did NOT say that red/pink discoloration was only seen post mortem. Nessie is trying to lie his way out of what he said. Your bald-faced lie is just more more specious bullsh!t.
COHb is formed by breathing CO. Dead people don't breathe. COHb is the cause of red/pink discoloration. Some people with high levels of COHb survive. How do you account for the people who survive after displaying the red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning? Do people who display livor mortis ever live through it?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 20, 2022 19:22:17 GMT
Question for Nessie: Does COHb cause red/pink discoloration in CO poisoning victims? Nessie said: And: The source did NOT say that red/pink discoloration was only seen post mortem. Nessie is trying to lie his way out of what he said. Your bald-faced lie is just more more specious bullsh!t. You are quote mining. Skin discolouration can happen before death, but it is vague and rarely seen. It is more commonly and obviously seen after death at postmortems. Postmortems do not take place minutes after death. You are still weasel dodging my point about rescuers not being warned to check the skin to look for redness, when according to you, it is obvious and could save lives and stop rescuers being made ill or even dying themselves. The survivors who have displayed cherry red skin appear to be the victims of chronic, long term, low level CO poisoning. Remember the chart that shows red skin can form over time and Scott's post about chronic poisoning? Probably not! |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 20, 2022 19:47:34 GMT
Nessie wrote:
No, I'm not quote mining. Red/pink discoloration is a sign that death is imminent for victims of CO poisoning. The symptoms for less severe cases of CO poisoning are vague and difficult to diagnose. You are lying that an EMT wouldn't immediately suspect CO poisoning if he were to see a person displaying bright red/pink skin discoloration.
The chart showed the progression of symptoms and level of discoloration for CO poisoning from "no symptoms" up to "death". There was NO reference to anything post mortem. You probably can't understand that the level of red/pink discoloration is dependent on the level of COHb in the blood. That or you're just lying about it.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 21, 2022 7:39:11 GMT
Nessie wrote: No, I'm not quote mining. Red/pink discoloration is a sign that death is imminent for victims of CO poisoning. The symptoms for less severe cases of CO poisoning are vague and difficult to diagnose. The medical sources you have quoted do not say that. They do not say cherry red skin is common and easily spotted in the skin of people about to die from acute, severe poisoning. They also do not say the symptoms for less severe poisoning are vague, but for severe poisoning they are clear. You are lying that I made that claim. You are weasel dodging that if cherry red skin was as obvious and common as you allege, why do so many medical sources not mention it, or do not say to specifically look out for it? The NHS site states that unconsciousness is the symptom when people are about to die in minutes. Why are they not mentioning a symptom you claim will also be there? The answer has to be that you are wrong and it is not common and obvious. You dropped a site when I pointed out it was referring only to fingernail beds. Even then, when is there no advice to check fingers to look for cherry red? Again, the answer is, it is not as common and obvious as you suggest. The chart explains that it takes TIME!!!! When exposure is so acute it takes minutes to die, there is no time for the skin to have turned cherry red. That also raises the other possible cause of death, asphyxiation, whereby the O level has dropped to where there is not enough to survive. A medically qualified witness, Dr August Becker, states that was the cause of death. www.facinghistory.org/holocaust-human-behavior/dr-august-becker-memo-use-mobile-gas-vansHis memo of May 16th 1942 regarding the gas vans; "The gassing is generally not carried out correctly. In order to get the Aktion finished as quickly as possible the driver presses down on the accelerator as far as it will go. As a result the persons to be executed die of suffocation and do not doze off as was planned. It has proved that if my instructions are followed and the levers are properly adjusted death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted faces and excretions, such as were observed before, no longer occur." |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 21, 2022 8:54:38 GMT
Nessie wrote:
That is precisely what they say.
Here is what you said:
You claim that an EMT would suspect CO poisoning only when examining dead bodies. He would have no reason to suspect CO poisoning if the person were still alive. That is what you SAID, Nessie.
Nessie goes for another sly lie with:
Curious how Nessie can't make his points without lying. I DIDN'T say that cherry red skin was common. I specifically said that death from CO poisoning was rare, less than 1% of the cases requiring emergency room/hospital admission. Amongst that tiny, <1% of cases of CO poisoning, cherry red skin discoloration is common due to the high levels of COHb that is necessary to cause death. There is an even smaller fraction that manages to live with COHb levels that produce the red/pink discoloration. Nessie is claiming that I said that red/pink discoloration was "obvious and common" in ALL cases of CO poisoning. Nessie is lying like a rug.
Then we have more lies from Nessie:
The chart shows the progression of symptoms along with the skin discoloration associated with CO poisoning up to death. It provides no time measurements in hours, minutes or seconds for the symptoms to occur.
The witnesses gave various times for the length of the gassing procedure at Treblinka but it was generally around 25-30 minutes. Nessie is saying that the victims didn't have time to develop red/pink skin in that length of time. Nessie pulls that one out of thin air with nothing to substantiate such a claim. Tell us why victims with uniformly fatal levels of COHb wouldn't have red/pink skin discoloration.
Give your source for Becker's memo that was allegedly from 1942.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 21, 2022 9:20:30 GMT
Nessie wrote: That is precisely what they say. Here is what you said: You claim that an EMT would suspect CO poisoning only when examining dead bodies. He would have no reason to suspect CO poisoning if the person were still alive. That is what you SAID, Nessie. You said "You are lying that an EMT wouldn't immediately suspect CO poisoning if he were to see a person displaying bright red/pink skin discoloration." I did not say that. If a paramedic sees someone with cherry red skin, they would know that they were either dying from CO, or are already dead and to be very careful because they are also at risk. I posted examples of paramedics who fell ill at the scene of CO poisonings. My point, that you dodge, is if it is a common and obvious sign, why do no resources say it is common and obvious and why do some not even mention it all? You have no rational answer to that, so you make up strawmen allegations. I did not say "all". I am saying that you are lying that in severe poisonings, where death will occur if a person is not rescued and treated, they will commonly and obviously show cherry red. That is not all types of poisonings, I am only referring to severe will be fatale poisonings, stop lying. Which means it is not clear as to how long it takes. So you cannot use it as evidence that severe exposure will result in the skin going obviously cherry red in minutes. The medical sources referring to severe poisonings that will kill in minutes do not warn rescuers to look out for cherry red skin. That is because it is not common and obvious prior to death. Because most of the blood is still being pumped around the body, where it cannot be seen. It needs to be concentrated in the skin for it to become obvious. You quoted a source about fingernail beds, which is where the skin is thin and there is lots of blood at the surface of the skin. I previously quoted a source that mentioned lips, where the skin is thin and there is lots of blood at the surface of the skin. I remember another about the gums. Where the skin is thin and there is more blood near the surface, is where any colour change is more obvious. Think of asphyxia and blue lips. You think the body will go evenly and obviously cherry red before death, but the evidence is that certain parts of the body will show before others and those parts do not make it obvious the blood is going cherry red to someone clearing bodies from gas chambers. I did. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 21, 2022 10:22:59 GMT
Nessie wrote:
According to you cherry red skin only appears after death. Why would the hypothetical EMT suspect CO poisoning in a patient that was still alive? Livor mortis becomes visibly apparent an hour or two after death. That is what you've claimed in the past. Are you now changing your story to cherry red skin being a sign of CO poisoning?
So you're now claiming that red/pink skin discoloration isn't the result of high levels of COHb?
Which means that the chart has nothing to do with time. It shows various symptoms for different levels of CO poisoning and the concomitant red/pink skin discoloration.
Give a link to the source that claims that.
Nobody has claimed that the entire body, 100% of it will turn pink/red from CO poisoning. The red/pink discoloration begins with the fingernails, tongue, lips and progresses to more body areas as the level of COHb rises. Claiming that nobody showed any red/pink discoloration at Treblinka is absolute horse frocky.
Your link to the Becker memo says nothing, zip, zero nada about it's origin.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 21, 2022 10:38:55 GMT
Nessie wrote: According to you cherry red skin only appears after death...Claiming that nobody showed any red/pink discoloration at Treblinka is absolute horse frocky. I am going to deal with your lying. Quote me saying that. Quote me saying that cherry red skin only ever appears after death and no sign of cherry red skin ever appears before death. When you fail to do that, you can apologise for lying. I have clearly stated, on numerous occasions, that is rare and not obvious prior to death. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 21, 2022 11:06:29 GMT
LOL! Nessie has backed himself into a corner. Of course you've said that the red/pink discoloration only appears with livor mortis. You know it as well as I. Of course red/pink discoloration is rare. It appears only with very high levels of COHb and signifies imminent death and less than 1% of CO poisoning die. That's why it was said that people who died from CO poisoning showed the persistent red/pink discoloration. It wasn't from livor mortis as you have claimed.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 21, 2022 11:36:18 GMT
LOL! Nessie has backed himself into a corner. Of course you've said that the red/pink discoloration only appears with livor mortis. You know it as well as I. Of course red/pink discoloration is rare. It appears only with very high levels of COHb and signifies imminent death and less than 1% of CO poisoning die. That's why it was said that people who died from CO poisoning showed the persistent red/pink discoloration. It wasn't from livor mortis as you have claimed. Quote me saying that it ONLY appears with lividity and NEVER before death. You cannot, because you are lying, again. You lie because you cannot deal with my actual argument. Show me a medical source that states cherry red skin is common and obvious as people are dying from acute, severe, exposure. Here is the NHS www.nhs.uk/conditions/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/"loss of consciousness โ in cases where there are very high levels of carbon monoxide, death may occur within minutes" Why does that not say, loss of consciousness and cherry red skin when death will occur in minutes? The reason is that even in fatal if not rescued acute exposure, it is not common and obvious prior to death. The CDC explain; www.cdc.gov/disasters/co_guidance.html"The symptoms and signs of carbon monoxide poisoning are variable and non specific." That is for all forms of CO poisoning, from mild to severe, will kill if not rescued. If cherry red skin was common and obvious for severe gassings, where people will died if not rescued and rescuers are also at risk, it would be listed as symptom took out for. Instead, the symptoms listed are "Symptoms of severe CO poisoning include malaise, shortness of breath, headache, nausea, chest pain, irritability, ataxia, altered mental status, other neurologic symptoms, loss of consciousness, coma, and death" Death is listed as symptom. Meaning, if some are found dead at a scene, then that indicates CO may be present at fatal levels. But there is no mention of cherry red skin. So, clearly it is not common and obvious, even at fatal gassing scenes. You have no argument against that, so you lie. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 21, 2022 22:14:27 GMT
Nessie wrote: So much for Nessie's claim that he didn't say that the red/pink discoloration of high levels of COHb was "only an obvious sign after death". Then we have: www.emttrainingbase.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/ What can't Nessie understand about the statement that the EMT was taught that cherry red skin was the classic sign of CO poisoning? The EMT went on to say that cherry red skin was a "very late sign of CO poisoning". He DIDN'T say that cherry red skin wasn't a sign of CO poisoning but that it indicated that death was imminent. That completely contradicts Nessie's claim that cherry red skin was "only an obvious sign after death". Nessie claims that cherry red skin is rare. Of course it is. Death from CO poisoning is rare. Very few people survive the level of COHb necessary to create the cherry red discoloration. That is not to say that people who have levels of COHb of 65%+ don't turn bright red/pink. Nessie wrote: That's been done. See the above quote from www.emttrainingbase.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/ There's also the chart showing the correlation between the various symptoms of CO poisoning and the red/pink discoloration. Nessie then claims that he has never said that the cherry red skin discoloration of CO poisoning was the result of lividity e.g. livor mortis. The point being that if the Treblinka victims were deliberately murdered with CO they would uniformly show the effects of very high levels of COHb before death. High levels of COHb cause the red/pink discoloration which is why the majority of cadavers at Treblinka would present the red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning. The fact that the alleged eyewitnesses didn't describe the cadavers as being red or pink proves that they didn't see hundreds of thousands of cadavers killed with CO. They lied. Nessie won't accept that conclusion so continues to try to prove that red/pink skin discoloration doesn't result from high levels of COHb or that it only becomes visible after death and the onset of livor mortis or that it's so rare as to be unnoticeable. Nessie is arguing a lost cause. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 22, 2022 10:30:44 GMT
Nessie wrote: So much for Nessie's claim that he didn't say that the red/pink discoloration of high levels of COHb was "only an obvious sign after death". I have always said, based on the evidence, it is not common and obvious before death, it is common and obvious after death. You have tried to make all sorts of false claims over what I have said, as you cannot argue against my actual argument. That source does not say how common and obvious it is. It is not say, cherry red skin will obviously appear in the majority of people exposed to severe levels of CO, just prior to death. Cherry red skin prior to death, is not common and obvious even in severe fatal gassings. We know that because of all of the medical sources that list symptoms of CO for severe, will die in minutes of exposure, that do not list it as a symptom. Or, they make a generalised comment for all levels of exposure, that it is rare. That is why you edit out and weasel dodge the symptom lists I post from the NHS and CDC. You cannot argue against my point, that if it was common and obvious, those sources would list it as a symptom, or else risk being sued by people who nearly died themselves trying to rescue others, or nearly died as rescuers were not aware of what you claim to be a common and obvious symptom. I said above " Show me a medical source that states cherry red skin is common and obvious as people are dying from acute, severe, exposure." You cannot do that!!!! Liar, I have consistently said that it is common and obvious with lividity. Stop lying. Show me a medical source that states the symptoms of CO poisoning are uniform and happen the majority of time with the majority of people. Show me a medical source that states cherry red skin is common and obvious in severe poisonings. The source you use above does not say how common and obvious it is in severe poisonings. It just states the sign is "classic" meaning distinctive to CO. Since cherry red skin is distinctive to CO, if it was common and obvious it would be listed by every source as a symptom to look for in severe poisonings. I have produced numerous medical sources which do not list it as a symptom for severe poisonings, or say that it rarely seen in all cases and numerous postmortem sources that state it appears with lividity. I have also produced an expert witness to gassings, Dr August Becker, who said people died from asphyxia, not being poisoned, which would explain why the bodies were not commonly and obviously cherry red. You quote mine, lie and deliberately misinterpret medical sources to try and sustain your false argument. |
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