Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 17, 2022 23:54:48 GMT
No, the Austrian study had nothing to do with Berg. Here's another study: jmedicalcasereports.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1752-1947-8-263#Sec3 Nessie wrote: So, there's no way to calculate the parameters for the run time of the engine. Are you willing to state that with the same level of confidence that you declare the red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning comes from post mortem lividity and not a buildup of COHb in the system before death?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 18, 2022 11:07:25 GMT
You have quote mined from an article "Abnormal fingernail beds following carbon monoxide poisoning: a case report and review of the literature" which is about "Fingernail bed manifestation is reported in survivors of carbon monoxide poisoning." ans constantly refers to fingernails throughout. So, it is about survivors, not fatal gassings, which you have previously correctly stated, is not relevant to fatal gassings. If people went commonly and obviously cherry red just before they died of severe CO, why does the NHS, CDC and others list unconsciousness as the most distinctive symptom and they do not mention cherry red skin? We do not know what engine was used, the precise volume of the chambers, what volume of gas was needed when a chamber was full of people, the total volume of the pipework, how pressure was dealt with and if those people died due to CO poisoning or CO reducing the percentage of oxygen to below 19.5%. We know far more about the symptoms of CO poisoning and postmortem signs of CO poisoning and asphyxia.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 18, 2022 12:11:27 GMT
Nessie wrote: Of course I "quote mined it". What the hell does that have to do with red/pink skin and mucosal membranes? People turn red/pink before they die from CO poisoning not after. Livor mortis is in addition to the red/pink of CO poisoning. As far as people dying from less than 19.5% oxygen in the atmosphere, read this from: www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2008-05-01
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 18, 2022 12:13:30 GMT
Nessie wrote: Of course I "quote mined it". What the hell does that have to do with red/pink skin and mucosal membranes? People turn red/pink before they die from CO poisoning not after. Livor mortis is in addition to the red/pink of CO poisoning. As far as people dying from less than 19.5% oxygen in the atmosphere, read this from: www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2008-05-01
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 18, 2022 13:33:29 GMT
Nessie wrote: Of course I "quote mined it". What the hell does that have to do with red/pink skin and mucosal membranes? People turn red/pink before they die from CO poisoning not after. Livor mortis is in addition to the red/pink of CO poisoning. You quote mined the one sentence that reads as if all the skin turns cherry red, in an article that is exclusively about fingernails! The article as a whole is discussing the appearance of pink, redness associated with CO poisoning, so that medics know to check the fingers if they suspect poisoning. That is where discolouration is most likely to be found. You have edited out my point that it is about non-fatal cases! I said 19.5 % because of this sciencing.com/minimum-oxygen-concentration-human-breathing-15546.html"Humans need oxygen to live, but not as much as you might think. The minimum oxygen concentration in the air required for human breathing is 19.5 percent." You are right that to kill quickly, the oxygen level needs to drop to about 6%, so what Becker said is correct, full throttle on the gas vans and people asphyxiate, as the O levels drop. The gas vans had a hinged vent to prevent pressure issues.
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Post by been_there on May 18, 2022 15:15:22 GMT
... BRIGHT PINK to CHERRY-RED SKIN and the HOLLOWHOAX, MASS-GASSING MYTHOLOGY
Q1. Does the skin of people near death from Carbon monoxide poisoning turn bright pink to cherry red? A1. YES! It bloody-well does!
Q2. Is that a a โ commonโ feature? A2. YES! it bloody-well is!
Q3. Why then donโt medical sites list that and teach medical staff that it is a distinguishing feature and classic, tell-tale sign? A3. They DID! They used to do exactly that. Evidence has already been provided proving that. But because they are about saving lives they have de-emphasised that common sign as for most people by the time they are cherry-red in colour they are not saveable. Many bright-pink persons who have been poisoned will die, so if rescuers donโt look for other, earlier signs the bright-pink patients are beyond help!
Q4. If people are already cherry-red or bright pink BEFORE death, does that disappear and only come back with lividity and the pooling of the blood by gravity? A4. Ha ha! ๐คฃ Donโt be an imbecile. Of course not! ๐๐คฆโโ๏ธ If people die from CO poisoning the vast majority will be bright pink from the time of death onwards. The colouring will only get more severe and noticeable and will remain for weeks until the body starts to decompose.
Q5. Does the cherry-red and bright pink skin colouring of those who die from CO poisoning occur within 15 to 25 minutes? Q6. Hunh? Yes, of course! Are you being serious with these questions? Focus, now: nearly everyone who dies of CO poisoning will display this โclassicโ, โtell-taleโ sign. That is precisely WHY it is a โclassicโ, โtell-taleโ sign. The only rare, exceptions are anemic people and those with brown or black skin.
Q7. Does this also apply to people who have been poisoned by hydrogen cyanide gas administered using a pesticide called ZyklonB? A7. Yes! it bloody-well does!
Q8. So would someone who witnessed and participated in the gassing of allegedly 2.5 million people using CO and HCN โ and those who allegedly handled thousands of these gassed bodies everyday for months โ have noticed a bright pink or cherry-red corpse? A8. Yes! they most certainly would have done! Absolutely!! They would have seen not just a few but many, many thousands. It would have been the most distinctive feature.
Q9. So they wouldnโt have seen blue, black or yellow bodies? A9. Ha ha! No! Absolutely not. Look is this some sort of joke questionnaire? Many of your questions seem extremely ignorant and some are quite ridiculous.
Q10. No, this is serious. The whole political and epistemological foundation of western society depends on this. So if numerous individuals claimed to have witnessed and participated in the gassing of allegedly 2.5 million people using CO and HCN yet in their descriptions DID NOT mention bright pink bodies and instead described other skin colourings, how can that be explained? A10. Very simply: THEY LIED! Q11. Oh sh*t! ๐ฎ
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 18, 2022 17:07:03 GMT
Nessie quoted from: www.sciencing.com/minimum-oxygen-concentration-human-breathing-15546.htmlWhat he didn't quote from OSHA was the statement about lethal levels of oxygen deprivation. We see from the same source (OSHA) that: To be fatal, the oxygen level needs to be <6%. Nessie then natters on about a German POW "confession" about "gas vans". No examples of those "gas vans" were ever discovered. Nessie simply claims with no evidence whatsoever that the atmospheric oxygen in those mythical vans dropped to less than 6%. In any event, nobody ever claimed that the gas chambers at Treblinka were vented. On the contrary, the witnesses claimed that those gas/vacuum chambers were hermetically sealed. Once again Nessie is caught blowing clouds of smoke and horse frocky.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 19, 2022 8:43:36 GMT
... BRIGHT PINK to CHERRY-RED SKIN and the HOLLOWHOAX, MASS-GASSING MYTHOLOGY
Q1. Does the skin of people near death from Carbon monoxide poisoning turn bright pink to cherry red? A1. YES! It bloody-well does!
Q2. Is that a a โ commonโ feature? A2. YES! it bloody-well is!
Q3. Why then donโt medical sites list that and teach medical staff that it is a distinguishing feature and classic, tell-tale sign? A3. They DID! They used to do exactly that. Evidence has already been provided proving that. But because they are about saving lives they have de-emphasised that common sign as for most people by the time they are cherry-red in colour they are not saveable. Many bright-pink persons who have been poisoned will die, so if rescuers donโt look for other, earlier signs the bright-pink patients are beyond help! If bright pink skin was a sign people were at death's door and inside a space that was contaminated with fatal levels of CO that would also endanger rescuers, EVERY medical source would ensure as many people knew about that as possible, even if it was just to SAVE the lives of the rescuers. For the NHS and CDC to list unconsciousness as the last symptom before death, and miss out what you claim to be common and obvious, so that rescuers are now also at risk of illness or death, is idiocy on your part. Even if the chances of saving someone are low, medics, or relatives of someone dying will still try to save them. Where is your evidence of that? Show me a postmortem source that states the skin is already cherry red and lividity merely means the cherry redness fades from areas where the blood has drained from, and increases where it drains to. Show me a medical source that states cherry red skin appears prior to death in acute, fatal CO gassings. It is odd that it was not commented on, which is suggestive that you are wrong and the vast majority of bodies were not obviously cherry red. The medical evidence is that cherry red is not listed as a symptom prior to death, even in acute fatal in minutes exposure and that instead, it becomes common and obvious as the blood pools after death, so there is an obvious contast between the pale skin blood has drained from and the now very red skin the blood has drained into. Dr Becker, who worked on the T4 euthanasia programme and advised on the use of gas vans, suggests another reason why there were no reports of obvious cherry red skin, but there were reports of blue skin, which is that the people died of asphyxiation, not CO poisoning. Pumping CO into the gas vans reduced the oxygen levels to below 19.5% and kept going until people asphyxiated. They died from a lack of O, not poisoning from CO. Wiernik's use of the term yellow, appears to be a turn of phrase, like dead as a doornail. Occam's razor tells us that out of the two scenarios of a massive conspiracy including millions lying about being gassed and a few deniers who did not understand the medical evidence, the logical conclusion is that the deniers did not understand the medical evidence.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 19, 2022 8:49:19 GMT
Nessie quoted from: www.sciencing.com/minimum-oxygen-concentration-human-breathing-15546.htmlWhat he didn't quote from OSHA was the statement about lethal levels of oxygen deprivation. We see from the same source (OSHA) that: To be fatal, the oxygen level needs to be <6%. Nessie then natters on about a German POW "confession" about "gas vans". No examples of those "gas vans" were ever discovered. Nessie simply claims with no evidence whatsoever that the atmospheric oxygen in those mythical vans dropped to less than 6%. In any event, nobody ever claimed that the gas chambers at Treblinka were vented. On the contrary, the witnesses claimed that those gas/vacuum chambers were hermetically sealed. Once again Nessie is caught blowing clouds of smoke and horse frocky. The evidence is from Becker. You can pretend all you want that there is no evidence people died from asphyxiation rather than CO poisoning. Lying to yourself that there is no evidence, when there is evidence, is a topic in itself. Pumping engine fumes into the back of a van, which has a hinged vent to stop any pressure issues, will rapidly drop the concentration of O to fatal levels.
Between people dying from asphyxiation and dying from CO poisoning, where there is no medical evidence that just before death, their skin went obviously cherry red, there are two reasons why witness did not refer to seeing lots of cherry red bodies.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 19, 2022 10:09:19 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Becker was a POW testifying at a postwar "war crimes" tribunal. Does Nessie have any reservations about the reliability of such testimony? Not only NO but HELL NO! Hey, confessions is confessions to Nessie.
Just as he would accept the testimony of Franz Ziereis as gospel truth. Ziereis testified that he had gassed 65,000 Jews and that Ernst Kaltenbrunner had ordered him to kill everyone in the camp. Kaltenbrunner was, of course, found guilty and hanged. Oh, and the name of the camp where all of that supposedly took place? Mauthhausen. Never mind that it's now admitted that NO gas chambers ever existed at Mauthausen. Becker's "confession" is gold for Nessie.
Neither does Nessie explain what Becker's testimony has to do with Treblinka where numerous eyewitnesses claimed that the gas/vacuum chambers were hermetically sealed. Nessie also claims that it's impossible to calculate the parameters for how long the tank engine would have to run to either raise the CO level to at least 5-6,000 ppm or reduce the oxygen level to <6% in the gas chambers. Let's take a look at that.
The engine would have to have been one of three engines used to power Soviet tanks. The smallest tank engine used in Soviet tanks was the M-5, a knockoff of the US L-12, a 27 liter gas engine rated to 2,100 rpm. Assuming that the Germans didn't use full throttle that engine would produce about 25 cubic meters of exhaust per minute. The volume of the empty gas chambers was 142.5 cubic meters. The M-5 would raise the pressure inside the gas chamber by 1 atm in 5min 42sec. There are 101.3 kPa in one atmosphere. Cat, John Deere et al. recommend no more than 25-27 kPa of back pressure on large engine exhausts. It would take no more than ~75 kPa to stall the engine. That gives us a baseline run time for the engine with an empty gas chamber of 4min 17sec. The actual run time would depend upon how many people were in the gas chamber and how much volume they would occupy.
In any event, the limited run time of the engine will NOT bring the oxygen levels in the gas chamber to <6%. That the engine would run for as long as 4 minutes in the empty chamber is being VERY generous on my part. Your claim that people died from oxygen deprivation is pure horse frocky.
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Post by been_there on May 19, 2022 11:16:44 GMT
BRIGHT PINK to CHERRY-RED SKIN and the HOLLOW-HOAX, MASS-GASSING MYTHOLOGY
Q1. Does the skin of people near death from Carbon monoxide poisoning turn bright pink to cherry red? A1. YES! It bloody-well does!
Q2. Is that a โ commonโ feature? A2. YES! it bloody-well is! emttrainingbase.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/
Q3. Why then donโt medical sites list that and teach medical staff that it is a distinguishing feature and classic, tell-tale sign? A3. They DID! They used to do exactly that. Evidence has already been provided proving that. But because they are about saving lives they have de-emphasised that common sign as for most people by the time they are cherry-red in colour they are not saveable. Many bright-pink persons who have been poisoned will die, so if rescuers donโt look for other, earlier signs the bright-pink patients are beyond help! It is odd that it [bright pink to cherry-red skin colouring] was not commented on... [! ๐คช๐ ha ha. You donโt say.] ... Show me a medical source that states cherry red skin appears prior to death in acute, fatal CO gassings. ... Where is your evidence of...? ... Show me a postmortem source that states... [blah, blah, blah] If bright pink skin was a sign people were at death's door and inside a space that was contaminated with fatal levels of CO that would also endanger rescuers, EVERY medical source would ensure as many people knew about that as possible, even if it was just to SAVE the lives of the rescuers. For the NHS and CDC to list unconsciousness as the last symptom before death, and miss out what you claim to be common and obvious, so that rescuers are now also at risk of illness or death, is [if my argument were true] idiocy on your [ their] part... All the evidence asked for his been provided many times before: here now, on the previous version of RODOH and over at CODOH. Proving this person isnโt interested in either evidence, truth or factual accuracy. But (ho-hum) Iโll just leave this here (again). ๐๐จ๐ปโ๐ โ...my EMT lecture on CO poisoning taught that the classic sign to look out for is cherry red skin. ...research shows cherry red is a very late sign of CO poisoning, often indicating the patient is near deathโ.
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Post by been_there on May 19, 2022 11:49:39 GMT
BRIGHT PINK to CHERRY-RED SKIN and the HOLLOWHOAX, MASS-GASSING MYTHOLOGY
Q1. Does the skin of people near death from Carbon monoxide poisoning turn bright pink to cherry red? A1. YES! It bloody-well does!
Q2. Is that a โ commonโ feature? A2. YES! it bloody-well is!
Wiernik's use of the term yellow, appears to be a turn of phrase, like dead as a doornail. Ha ha ha! ๐คฃ Whatever. ๐๐คช Question: Did Wiernik mention seeing ANY bright pink, naked corpses? Did He mention seeing even one? Answer: no! He did not!Question: What? ...not even a single bright pink body out of all those many, many hundreds of thousands he supposedly saw???! ๐ฎ Answer: No.Question: well, how do we explain that? Answer: we quibble about the Polish meaning of this wrong detail in his overall false description.Question: Ah. Ok. ๐ค But, hang on... how come ALL of the expert translators of his Polish into English OR any other language, didnโt know that was an idiom of speech? Answer: donโt ask. Just believe whatever fits the bogus narrative.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 19, 2022 13:33:33 GMT
Nessie wrote: Becker was a POW testifying at a postwar "war crimes" tribunal. Does Nessie have any reservations about the reliability of such testimony? Not only NO but HELL NO! Hey, confessions is confessions to Nessie. Just as he would accept the testimony of Franz Ziereis as gospel truth. Ziereis testified that he had gassed 65,000 Jews and that Ernst Kaltenbrunner had ordered him to kill everyone in the camp. Kaltenbrunner was, of course, found guilty and hanged. Oh, and the name of the camp where all of that supposedly took place? Mauthhausen. Never mind that it's now admitted that NO gas chambers ever existed at Mauthausen. Becker's "confession" is gold for Nessie. Neither does Nessie explain what Becker's testimony has to do with Treblinka where numerous eyewitnesses claimed that the gas/vacuum chambers were hermetically sealed. Nessie also claims that it's impossible to calculate the parameters for how long the tank engine would have to run to either raise the CO level to at least 5-6,000 ppm or reduce the oxygen level to <6% in the gas chambers. Let's take a look at that. The engine would have to have been one of three engines used to power Soviet tanks. The smallest tank engine used in Soviet tanks was the M-5, a knockoff of the US L-12, a 27 liter gas engine rated to 2,100 rpm. Assuming that the Germans didn't use full throttle that engine would produce about 25 cubic meters of exhaust per minute. The volume of the empty gas chambers was 142.5 cubic meters. The M-5 would raise the pressure inside the gas chamber by 1 atm in 5min 42sec. There are 101.3 kPa in one atmosphere. Cat, John Deere et al. recommend no more than 25-27 kPa of back pressure on large engine exhausts. It would take no more than ~75 kPa to stall the engine. That gives us a baseline run time for the engine with an empty gas chamber of 4min 17sec. The actual run time would depend upon how many people were in the gas chamber and how much volume they would occupy. In any event, the limited run time of the engine will NOT bring the oxygen levels in the gas chamber to <6%. That the engine would run for as long as 4 minutes in the empty chamber is being VERY generous on my part. Your claim that people died from oxygen deprivation is pure horse frocky. Becker's claims are corroborated. Whether people were asphyxiated or died of CO poisoning, there is no medical evidence that prior to death, their skin had turned obviously cherry red.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 19, 2022 13:37:06 GMT
...All the evidence asked for his been provided many times before: here now, on the previous version of RODOH and over at CODOH. Proving this person isnโt interested in either evidence, truth or factual accuracy. But (ho-hum) Iโll just leave this here (again). ๐๐จ๐ปโ๐ โ...my EMT lecture on CO poisoning taught that the classic sign to look out for is cherry red skin. ...research shows cherry red is a very late sign of CO poisoning, often indicating the patient is near deathโ. How common and obvious is cherry red skin at the time of death, in acute CO poisonings that have taken minutes to kill? Why does the NHS not list cherry red skin as a symptom in cases that will kill within minutes? That clearly states it takes time for discolouration to form. Where is your evidence that it can form in exposure that lasts minutes?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 19, 2022 13:40:09 GMT
Wiernik's use of the term yellow, appears to be a turn of phrase, like dead as a doornail. Ha ha ha! ๐คฃ Whatever. ๐๐คช Question: Did Wiernik mention seeing ANY bright pink, naked corpses? Did He mention seeing even one? Answer: no! He did not!Question: What? ...not even a single bright pink body out of all those many, many hundreds of thousands he supposedly saw???! ๐ฎ Answer: No.Question: well, how do we explain that? Answer: we quibble about the Polish meaning of this wrong detail in his overall false description.Question: Ah. Ok. ๐ค But, hang on... how come ALL of the expert translators of his Polish into English OR any other language, didnโt know that was an idiom of speech? Answer: donโt ask. Just believe whatever fits the bogus narrative.
Wiernik did not mention lots of bodies with obvious cherry red skin, because you are wrong and have misinterpreted the medical evidence.
The translators just translate, so, if someone uses the phrase dead as a doornail, a translator will translate that as dead as a doornail. It is up to the person who reads the translation to understand idioms.
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