Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 22, 2022 11:09:16 GMT
Your favourite source emttrainingbase.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/"I donโt know about you, but my EMT lecture on CO poisoning taught that the classic sign to look out for is cherry red skin. Experience has shown me that this is not true and research shows cherry red is a very late sign of CO poisoning, often indicating the patient is near death." That states cherry red skin is a symptom that is distinctive to and associated with CO. It then goes on to say it only appears in severe poisonings that will likely be fatal, as they are dying. It does not say how common and obvious it is. In the section on symptoms, this is highlighted; "The signs and symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning are variable and non-specific." Now we know that all symptoms, including cherry red skin, do not appear in a uniform and consistent manner. It goes on to say; "Many of us were taught that โcherry red skinโ is a classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning. However, anyone exposed to these patients knows that cherry red skin rarely occurs, and when it does it will usually occur very. Often itโs a late sign that happens when the patient is nearing death." That is a repeat of the first claim, about cherry red being distinctive to CO and it also being a late sign. But, we now know, it is not a uniform and consistent symptom, indeed no symptom is. The source goes on to say; "EMTs and paramedics will need to be aware of the patientโs surroundings, on scene clues, time of year and the signs and symptoms of CO monoxide poisoning to recognize this emergency in the field." That is a point I have been making for some time now, if cherry red was common and obvious, why are paramedics, who are at risk of being poisoned themselves, when entering a scene where people are dead or dying of CO, not being told to look for cherry red skin immediately? The source lists all the symptoms for paramedics to look for in SEVERE poisonings. It states; "Severe poisoning can have more obvious carbon monoxide effects, making it a bit easier to identify in the field." The list includes death, but it does not include cherry red skin. Any ambiguity about cherry red skin as a symptom is now cleared up. Even in fatal gassings, where some are dead and others are dying, cherry red skin is not a uniform and consistent symptom. Stop quote mining sources and look to what the context is, so you can properly understand its meaning. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 22, 2022 13:12:02 GMT
Nessie is trying to weasel dodge the fact that he said that the cherry red discoloration becomes obvious only after death. That IS what you said and I quoted you on it. It states that cherry red skin discoloration is the CLASSIC SIGN of CO poisoning. Here is a definition of classic as an adjective by Merriam Webster dictionary: 4. AUTHENTIC, AUTHORITATIVE a. typical, a classic example of chicanery b. a classic error Nessie is just flailing about trying to find some kind of an objection to what was plainly stated in the EMT source. As usual he fails miserably but that won't stop him from pronouncing some kind of ludicrous exception. Cherry red skin discoloration is indeed the classic symptom of CO poisoning but it's virtually worthless as a diagnostic tool. A victim who presents red/pink skin discoloration isn't likely to survive. Yep, here's Nessie flailing about: Cherry red skin prior to death is the CLASSIC sign of CO poisoning. What can't you understand about that? www.verywellhealth.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-symptoms-4161052A deep red, flushed skin color (cherry red) is the one telltale indicator of carbon monoxide poisoning. It comes from high levels of carboxyhemoglobin in the blood. Nessie changes his story. Now he's back to claiming that the red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning comes with livor mortis. Nessie goes for another sly lie. He tries to conflate lethal and non lethal cases of CO poisoning. Cherry red skin is a symptom of very high levels of COHb. It develops only with people in imminent danger of death. ALL of the victims at Treblinka were dead so most would present red/pink skin discoloration. That is a fact that Nessie is desperately trying to weasel dodge. You have produced numerous medical sources that deal with the treatment of CO poisoning. They are concerned with live patients which are about 99% of the people who suffer CO poisoning. The red/pink discoloration develops at very high levels of COHb which is usually fatal. Using the red/pink discoloration as a diagnostic tool is mostly useless since most of those patients are going to die. What can't you understand about cherry red skin not being an effective diagnostic tool? At Treblinka where it is alleged that people were deliberately gassed to death with CO there was no question of a diagnosis or treatment. ALL of the victims would have lethal percentages of COHb in their blood. Most would present the classic cherry red discoloration of CO poisoning. You try to pretend that there is no difference between cases of accidental CO poisoning and the alleged victims at Treblinka. That sly little lie doesn't fly. Neither does your claim that the red/pink discoloration only becomes visible with the development of livor mortis. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 22, 2022 19:14:42 GMT
Nessie is trying to weasel dodge the fact that he said that the cherry red discoloration becomes obvious only after death. That IS what you said and I quoted you on it. I am not trying to weasel dodge I said that, because that is what I said!!!! Your inability to understand this simple sentence is why you should consider whether you are really up to debating me. Cherry red skin is not common and obvious before death, even in severe fatal cases. It becomes common and obvious after death due to lividity and the colour of the blood becoming obviously cherry red as it pools and is contrasted against the pale skin that blood has drained from. That is too complicated for you to understand and remember!!! Classic does not mean common and obvious. It is classic, because it is distinctive to CO poisoning. That does not mean it is common and obvious. Classic does not mean common and obvious. If it was, that source would list it as a symptom to look for in severe poisonings. You are missing the common and obvious. Why does that source not list it for severe poisonings? It lists death, but not cherry red skin. A paramedic who finds dead and dying people should consider CO, but no mention of looking for cherry red skin. Cherry red skin is not common and obvious before death, meaning it will sometimes appear, but it will not be obvious. It is common and obvious after death, due to lividity. Sorry, that simple concept is beyond you!!!! I was specifically saying at any and all levels of CO, including severe. There is NO level of CO poisoning, from mild to severe, where cherry red becomes common and obvious. What I do not understand is why you think medical sources are deliberately missing out a symptom that may only save a few lives. Since when did medical sources give up on saving certain people? Even if it saved a few lives a year, the medical sources would say to look for cherry red skin as an indicator of severe CO. Instead, they do not. Both the NHS, CDC and your source list death as a symptom for rescuers to look out for in severe poisonings. Dead people cannot be saved. But you claim they deliberately miss out a symptom that could save lives!!!!
You are a very confused person who lacks the ability to remember and understand even simple concepts.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 22, 2022 23:56:03 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie simply denies what is plainly stated. Cherry red skin is the one telltale indicator of CO poisoning and it comes from high levels of carboxyhemoglobin in the blood. Is it the common indicator of accidental CO poisoning? Nope, it appears only when death is imminent. When it appears is it obvious? Yep, cherry red skin is obvious. Would it be common and obvious in groups of people that were being deliberately murdered with CO. Yep, it damn sure would. Those people would have uniformly high levels of COHb which is what causes the red/pink discoloration.
Nessie is aware that medical evidence knocks the claims of his so-called eyewitnesses into a cocked hat. Is he willing to accept the statements made by medical authorities? Nope, he damn sure isn't. Nothing can be allowed disprove his sacred holyhoax so he invents the fiction that cherry red skin discoloration from high levels of COHb appears only with the onset of livor mortis.
He's been shown photos of cadavers exhibiting the red/pink discoloration of CO poisoning and he dismisses them as being the product of livor mortis. Never mind that livor mortis presents as "dark red/purplish" in color. He's been shown a chart showing the correlation between the symptoms of CO poisoning and the cherry red discoloration. Nessie declares that the chart shows elapsed time for the onset of cherry red discoloration even though the chart makes no mention of time whatsoever. Nessie has claimed that cherry red discoloration comes only with chronic long term exposure to CO but seems to have dropped that notion.
Medical sources have stated unequivocally that cherry red skin discoloration is the one unmistakable effect of CO poisoning. They also state that such discoloration is "rare". Of course it's rare. Death by CO accidental CO poisoning is rare. During 2019 in the US, 430 deaths from CO poisoning out of 50,000 cases were reported. Less than 1%. Nessie simply denies that and cites sources that deal with accidental CO poisoning, its various symptoms and the treatments recommended for less than lethal CO poisoning.
Cherry red skin results from high levels of COHb, 65% and up. That is a medical fact but Nessie says, "Nope, cherry red skin discoloration comes from livor mortis". ALL of the victims at Treblinka would have had very high levels of COHb since they were being deliberately killed with CO. Nessie tries to tap-dance away from the fact that cherry red skin discoloration in CO poisoning comes from extremely high levels of COHb by declaring that it only becomes "obvious" with the onset of livor mortis.
Medical sources have moved away from using the classic sign of CO poisoning, cherry red skin, since that symptom is of little value as a diagnostic tool. Nessie is apparently claiming that if a doctor, nurse, EMT or whoever came across a person exhibiting cherry red skin discoloration they wouldn't suspect CO poisoning. They would just continue their examinations and haplessly die along with the patient.
The notion that medical personnel wouldn't recognize cherry red skin as a symptom of CO poisoning and could die as a result of that ignorance is ludicrous but no more ludicrous than many of Nessie's excuses for the lies of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged homicidal atrocities at Treblinka. Welcome to holyhoax la-la land, folks.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 23, 2022 10:52:29 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie simply denies what is plainly stated. Cherry red skin is the one telltale indicator of CO poisoning and it comes from high levels of carboxyhemoglobin in the blood. Is it the common indicator of accidental CO poisoning? Nope, it appears only when death is imminent. When it appears is it obvious? Yep, cherry red skin is obvious. Would it be common and obvious in groups of people that were being deliberately murdered with CO. Yep, it damn sure would. Those people would have uniformly high levels of COHb which is what causes the red/pink discoloration. The source linked to has cherry red listed as a rare symptom that is only obvious after death. You are assuming it is common and obvious in fatal gassings prior to death, but you have no evidence to back that claim up. Indeed you dodge that the source linked to, and many others specifically state CO symptoms are vague, if for severe gassings; "As carbon monoxide poisoning progresses, symptoms get more serious, but are still extremely vague and difficult to identify as specific to carbon monoxide exposure" You are misinterpreting the medical evidence. The photos show lividity aka livor mortis, which is cherry red in CO poisonings; www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6206253/"A man was found dead at home. The body displayed advanced rigor mortis, so no attempt was made at resuscitation. At external examination of the corpse, the livor mortis was found to be light-red rather than the customary livid, bluish color (figure). Light-red livor mortis can be found soon after death andโsometimesโon exposure to cold (reoxygenation by diffusion), but also occurs with CO poisoning. Diagnosis was assisted by livor mortis in the area of the nail beds: in the event of cold exposure these would have been bluish as usual, but on CO poisoning they can be light-red (as in life). However, the typical โcherry-redโ staining occurs only at a carboxyhemoglobin (COHb) concentration of 30% or more."  The chart specifically references time!!!! READ IT!!!!! You have yet to produce a medical source that states it is common and obvious in fatal gassings. Nope. The cherry red comes from the change of colour of the blood, which is not common and obvious prior to death, but as the blood pools after death, which happens in all deaths, hence it is common, become obvious, when compared to the now blood free pale skin. You are lying again, as you dodge that you claim medical sources are with holding a common and obvious symptom, which would cause more deaths. You are lying I have said that cherry red skin cannot help medical diagnosis in any and all cases. If a medic sees cherry red skin prior to death, they will know to suspect CO poisoning. Your claim that cherry red skin is not listed as a symptom as part of a weird conspiracy that puts people's lives in additional danger, is the product you being in la-la land. The NHS, CDC and EMT sources all list death as a possible symptom of severe CO poisoning. They are all saying to look out for dead people as a sign of fatal levels of CO, to make it safer for rescuers and to help treat those still alive. NONE list cherry red skin. You cannot cope with that, they list DEATH but NOT CHERRY RED SKIN. No wonder you do not understand. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 23, 2022 11:08:17 GMT
You need to learn about livor mortis aka lividity; www.sciencedirect.com/topics/pharmacology-toxicology-and-pharmaceutical-science/livor-mortis"livor mortis, also referred to as lividity, postmortem hypostasis, vibices, and suggilations" "When death occurs, circulation stops and the blood begins to settle, by gravity, to the lowest portions of the body. This results in a discoloration of those lower, dependent parts of the body. Although beginning immediately, the first signs of livor mortis are typically seen about 1 hour following death, with full development being observed 2 to 4 hours following death" "Carbon monoxide poisoning produces a persistent cherry red color and cyanide poisoning will also cause the red color to persist" "changing the position of the body can result in resettling of the blood in newly dependant areas" Lividity aka livor mortis forms after death, as the blood pools, and in CO poisonings, it is cherry red. It takes hours to form and moving the body will delay formation. This next part will be too complicated for you to understand, and it says what you do not want to hear; "The typical description of a decedent with CO poisoning is that he/she โlooks healthy.โ That is, the body retains a normal in vivo hue due to the continued presence of unutilized oxyHb. As livor may be subtle or unapparent early and/or in darkly pigmented bodies, other easily visualized vascular tissues can be assessed. The typical bright-red color is most readily appreciated in the mucosa of the mouth (Figure 13) and the conjunctiva. Fingernails are an excellent site to assess, as the nail beds are usually prominently cyanotic after death. With sufficient COHb, the nail beds appear pink." When people die of CO, they are not showing bright cherry red, just healthy looking. The bright cherry red is inside the mouth, or the fingernail beds. So, it is not obvious. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 23, 2022 15:58:02 GMT
Nessie needs to learn more about CO poisoning. From: www.verywellhealth.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-symptoms-4161052 What is it about, "carbon monoxide poisoning must be recognized long before the patient turns bright red" don't you understand? Is there something about, "the one telltale indicator of carbon monoxide poisoning" you don't understand? Then we have from: www.emttrainingbase.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/Is there something about "cherry red is a very late sign of CO poisoning, often indicating the patient is near death" that you don't understand? Cherry red skin indicates the patient is near death. Is there anything ambiguous about the cherry red of CO poisoning appearing before death and not hours later with the onset of livor mortis? Nessie totally ignores Scott's photo of the red/pink cadaver. Livor mortis is the result of gravity pulling the blood to the lower parts of the body. The photo displays red/pink discoloration on his back, shoulders, neck, his ear and even his scalp shows pink through the cowlick of his hair. Nessie says, "Nope, it's just livor mortis". That hardly explains how his ear, his neck and scalp all turned the characteristic red/pink color of CO poisoning. Not all victims of CO poisoning present the characteristic cherry red discoloration. However, if only 50% or even less of the cadavers at Treblinka showed red/pink the witnesses would note that and not declare all of the victims to be yellow, blue, black, etc. That would put a crimp in Nessie's holyhoax fantasy so admitting that high levels of COHb turns the victim cherry red isn't in the cards. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 23, 2022 16:35:55 GMT
Nessie needs to learn more about CO poisoning. From: www.verywellhealth.com/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-symptoms-4161052 What is it about, "carbon monoxide poisoning must be recognized long before the patient turns bright red" don't you understand? Is there something about, "the one telltale indicator of carbon monoxide poisoning" you don't understand? Where does it say that in fatal cases, people commonly and obviously turn cherry red before they die? That source specifically states; "As carbon monoxide poisoning progresses, symptoms get more serious, but are still extremely vague and difficult to identify" Why does it not say that cherry red skin appears in every severe case and it is obvious? Why does it say that even in severe cases, symptoms are vague and difficult to spot? The answer is that even in severe cases, cherry red skin is not common and obvious. You miss that part of the source out. That source also states, just before it discusses cherry red skin; "The signs and symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning are variable and non-specific." It goes on to say; "Severe poisoning can have more obvious carbon monoxide effects, making it a bit easier to identify in the field" But in the list that follows, which includes death, cherry red skin is not included. You are ignoring that both sites make it clear that all symptoms of CO poisoning, including cherry red skin, are vague, non-specific, variable and difficult to identify. You ignore the context, because it does not suit your claims. You are again missing out part of the sources. The corpse was rolled so that a photo could be taken of where lividity has settled. Now, how many people will be obviously cherry red on death? The answer is, you do not know!!!!! You are now suggesting 50%, but as is normal for you, you have no evidence. Show me a source that states what percentage of people, at the time of death, have obviously cherry red skin. I have shown you sources that say the redness is visible in the mouth and fingernail beds and the NHS, CDC and the above sources do not list cherry red as a symptom even for cases where death is in minutes and dead people are being found. You have misunderstood the medical sources. They say cherry red skin is a distinctive symptoms in severe poisonings, but it that does not mean it is commonly and obviously seen in severe poisonings and we know it is rare, since they did not list it as a symptom to look out for, even when people are DYING!!!!!
You constantly edit out my point that by not warning rescuers to look for cherry red skin, those medical sources are being negligent and are putting people at risk of death. You cannot explain that, so you weasel dodge.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 23, 2022 16:41:11 GMT
www.sciencedirect.com/topics/pharmacology-toxicology-and-pharmaceutical-science/livor-mortis"The typical description of a decedent with CO poisoning is that he/she โlooks healthy.โ That is, the body retains a normal in vivo hue due to the continued presence of unutilized oxyHb." People who died from CO poisoning typically look healthy. Not bright cherry red. "The typical bright-red color is most readily appreciated in the mucosa of the mouth (Figure 13) and the conjunctiva. Fingernails are an excellent site to assess, as the nail beds are usually prominently cyanotic after death. With sufficient COHb, the nail beds appear pink." Cherry red appears in the mouth and fingernail beds, not all over the skin, so it is not obvious.
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Post by been_there on Aug 17, 2022 6:45:32 GMT
As the holocaust mass-gassing claim includes an alleged million victims supposedly killed by Hydrogen Cyanide poisoning, here is clinical information on that. Again the medical literature confirms that some victims of this alleged method of mass-murder would have exhibited cherry red skin. As no lie-witness jewish sonderkommandos ever related seeing such discolourisation among the hundreds of thousands of HCN-gassed corpses they claim to have handled, this is further proof that their testimony is not credible. But the argument by Robert Faurisson and repeated by John Wear of poisoning by skin contact with a gassed individual is false.  |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 17, 2022 8:01:24 GMT
been-there wrote:
I'm not so sure of that, been-there. Here is an excerpt from an article about executions in the US with HCN.
First the poisonous atmosphere is exhausted from the chamber. Then the cadaver is washed with ammonia and after a half hour wait the gas mask and rubber glove wearing orderlies enter to remove the body. How much of that is just precautionary overkill is unknown but it's obvious that handling cadavers killed with HCN is much more complicated than waiting a few minutes for the gas to disperse and then entering the chamber and commencing to drag piles of corpses from it.
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Post by been_there on Aug 17, 2022 9:58:12 GMT
I'm not so sure of that, been-there. Here is an excerpt from an article about executions in the US with HCN. First the poisonous atmosphere is exhausted from the chamber. Then the cadaver is washed with ammonia and after a half hour wait the gas mask and rubber glove wearing orderlies enter to remove the body. How much of that is just precautionary overkill is unknown but it's obvious that handling cadavers killed with HCN but is much more complicated than waiting a few minutes for the gas to disperse and then entering the chamber and commencing to drag piles of corpses from it. I agree that โhandling cadavers killed with HCN is more complicated than waiting a few minutes for the gas to disperse and then entering the chamber and commencing to drag piles of corpses from it.โ But I think you are correct that the protocol of those conducting executions is/was โprecautionary overkillโ. The reference I referred to is for medical personnel treating victims of accidental HCN gas poisoning. As I understand it, it specified that exposure to liquid HCN was different, but gas required no special precautions apart from ruffling the hair to release possibly trapped gas. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 17, 2022 10:55:10 GMT
I'm no expert on HCN poisoning so am in no position to pass judgement on Faurisson's claim. I would, though, advise caution about positively declaring his claim to be false.
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