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Post by Ulios on May 12, 2022 20:24:36 GMT
Discuss the aspects of CO poisoning including lividity colour.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on May 13, 2022 6:33:20 GMT
Here is another list of symptoms for CO poisoning that will kill, which does not include cherry red skin; cks.nice.org.uk/topics/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/"Exposure to higher levels of carbon monoxide may cause: Confusion. Loss of consciousness and death. Movement problems. Myocardial infarction Respiratory failure. Weakness." Where is your list of symptoms for fatal exposure to CO that includes common and obvious cherry red skin, since other sources do not include that symptom. Remember, use only symptoms for severe exposure, that will kill if the person is not removed from the source and is treated. Nope, these are later and marginal symptoms. Actual signs of poisoning are the cherry red skin for biological process reasons previously explained. Most people with serious CO poisoning would therefore show this sign. There's no reason to think they would simply appear normal but dead. |
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Post by Ulios on May 13, 2022 7:36:57 GMT
Most people with serious CO poisoning would therefore show this sign. There's no reason to think they would simply appear normal but dead. The witnesses describe the colours as yellow, blue, black, green with very few mentioning a reddish colour; one person mentioned reddish brown spots. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 13, 2022 8:23:11 GMT
Can someone show me a list of symptoms for Carbon Monoxide poisoning, where that poisoning is severe and at levels that will lead to death, which includes the skin turning obviously cherry red? If people gassed at the AR camps were supposedly obviously cherry red at the point of death, so that when the gas chamber doors were opened, witnesses would see lots of clearly discoloured bodies, then that symptom would be listed for severe cases, where people are about to die or fatal cases, where the body is found shortly after the time of death.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 13, 2022 8:48:29 GMT
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Post by Ulios on May 13, 2022 9:00:21 GMT
Rajchman described the victims of the new gas/vacuum chambers as having blue torsos and black heads. Victims of the original three chamber gas/vacuum appeared normal with some displaying foam on their mouths. Wiernik described the victims as being yellow. Neither mentions that the victims of fatal doses of CO should display red or pink discoloration. That is why Nessie insists that red/pink discoloration isn't a characteristic of high levels of carboxyhemoglobin. It seems that Nessie is suggesting that CO poisoning symptoms include blue torsos and black heads, yellow or perhaps green. Perhaps he can find this information in the literature regarding recently deceased CO poisoned people. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 13, 2022 11:11:50 GMT
You have linked to pictures of bodies in morgues, that have been dead for hours, so lividity has had time to form and lists of symptoms for severe CO that does not included cherry red skin, for example
Why does that list not mention a symptom that you claim is common and obvious in people who are just about to die from CO? The answer is that it is not a common and obvious symptom until hours after death, when lividity forms.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 13, 2022 11:16:11 GMT
Rajchman described the victims of the new gas/vacuum chambers as having blue torsos and black heads. Victims of the original three chamber gas/vacuum appeared normal with some displaying foam on their mouths. Wiernik described the victims as being yellow. Neither mentions that the victims of fatal doses of CO should display red or pink discoloration. That is why Nessie insists that red/pink discoloration isn't a characteristic of high levels of carboxyhemoglobin. It seems that Nessie is suggesting that CO poisoning symptoms include blue torsos and black heads, yellow or perhaps green. Perhaps he can find this information in the literature regarding recently deceased CO poisoned people. Witnesses described the dead from trains, the dead lying about when Eberl was in charge and the first gas chambers were not working and bodies were being piled before burial.
The medical evidence is that at the point of death, cherry red skin is not a common symptom and it appears with lividity as the blood settles, which takes hours and will not happen when a body is moved. The medical evidence is that on death, the bodies would look pretty normal and certainly not bright cherry red.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 13, 2022 11:41:36 GMT
Nessie wrote: Those aren't photos of livor mortis. You're full of more sh!t than a Christmas goose. Peddle such drivel down the street, Nessie. Pink/red discoloration becomes evident at carboxyhemoglobin levels of 65% and higher. A carboxyhemoglobin level of 65% is nearly 100% fatal and Treblinka had a near 100% fatality rate for those who were deliberately gassed. The medical evidence is that at carboxyhemoglobin levels of 65%+ the cherry red blood imparts a pink/red discoloration to the skin as shown in the photos. Nessie is just lying that only livor mortis accounts for the red/pink discoloration from fatal CO poisoning.
carbon monoxide poisoning | medicine - Encyclopedia ... www.britannica.com âş ... âş Trauma |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 13, 2022 12:01:36 GMT
Nessie wrote: Those aren't photos of livor mortis. You're full of more sh!t than a Christmas goose. Peddle such drivel down the street, Nessie. ... In the link you provided above, the first image is of a male, who has been rolled onto his side; www.researchgate.net/figure/Fig-1-Cherry-red-lividity-and-blood-as-consequence-of-carboxyhemoglobin-formation-A_fig1_334585782The caption reads "Cherry-red lividity and blood as consequence of carboxyhemoglobin formation." It is a photo of a corpse, hours after death, once lividity has formed. The reason the body has been rolled onto its side, is to see the cherry red blood that has pooled in his back. You see white marks, which are where pressure has stopped the blood pooling in the surface of the skin. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 13, 2022 12:04:20 GMT
..... The medical evidence is that at carboxyhemoglobin levels of 65%+ the cherry red blood imparts a pink/red discoloration to the skin as shown in the photos. Nessie is just lying that only livor mortis accounts for the red/pink discoloration from fatal CO poisoning.
carbon monoxide poisoning | medicine - Encyclopedia ... www.britannica.com âş ... âş Trauma That link proves my point. It specifically states that cherry red usually presents postmortem!!!!
Now, link to a list of symptoms of severe CO that will kill that includes cherry red as a common and obvious symptom.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 13, 2022 13:25:07 GMT
What can't you understand about "...as a consequence of carboxyhemoglobin formation"? The cherry-red lividity isn't due to livor mortis. Those are two different effects of death. Cadavers that aren't disturbed ALL develop livor mortis. Victims of CO poisoning display pink/red discoloration at or near death. It takes an hour or more for livor mortis to develop after death. Livor mortis is deep red/purple in color while high levels of carboxyhemoglobin display as pink or red. Your deliberate obtuseness is bullsh!t.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 13, 2022 16:26:48 GMT
What can't you understand about " ...as a consequence of carboxyhemoglobin formation"? The cherry-red lividity isn't due to livor mortis. Livor mortis and lividity are the same thing www.osmosis.org/answers/livor-mortis"Livor mortis, also known as post-mortem lividity or post-mortem hypostasis, refers to the pooling of blood in the lower portion, or dependent parts, of the body after death." The bodies were removed from the gas chambers within minutes of death, which means the blood cannot pool as the bodies are being moved. Show me a medical source that lists cherry red skin as a symptom of exposure to fatal levels of CO, such that at time of death, the person is obviously cherry red. Here is the NHS site; www.nhs.uk/conditions/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/"Breathing in high levels of carbon monoxide gas can cause more severe symptoms. These may include: impaired mental state and personality changes (intoxication) the feeling that you or the environment around you is spinning (vertigo) loss of physical co-ordination caused by underlying damage to the brain and nervous system (ataxia) breathlessness and a heart rate of more than 100 beats per minute (tachycardia) chest pain caused by angina or a heart attack an uncontrollable burst of electrical activity in the brain that causes muscle spasms (seizures) loss of consciousness â in cases where there are very high levels of carbon monoxide, death may occur within minutes" If cherry red skin is common and obvious for severe, you will die if not rescued and treated, poisoning, why is it not listed? The answer is that it is not a common and obvious symptom just prior to and at the time of death. Which means that the bodies had been removed from the gas chambers (during which time movement prevents the blood pooling) and buried or cremated before livor mortis (aka lividity) had time to form and become obvious. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 13, 2022 21:04:32 GMT
Nessie wrote:
The red/pink discoloration of victims of fatal CO poisoning who have 65%+ carboxyhemoglobin levels isn't dependent on blood pooling from gravity in the lower parts of the body. Neither is it rare for victims of CO poisoning with 65%+ carboxyhemoglobin levels to present with red/pink discoloration. Equating the red/pink discoloration of fatal CO poisoning to livor mortis is asinine but Nessie is trying to excuse the alleged eyewitnesses who claimed that the cadavers presented yellow, blue and black discoloration as a result of CO poisoning.
No, you may die from CO poisoning with less than a 65% level of hemoglobin in which case the red/pink discoloration may be limited to fingernails and internal organs. Red/pink discoloration isn't rare in fatal cases of CO poisoning. As shown, less than 1% of carbon monoxide poisoning results in a fatality in the U.S. At Treblinka with it's 100% fatality rate the 65%+ levels of carboxyhemoglobin and the concomitant red/pink discoloration wouldn't be rare at all.
You demand that the red/pink discoloration be listed as a symptom of CO poisoning.
What can't you understand about that? It most often results from fatal CO poisoning and ALL cases of CO poisoning were fatal at Treblinka. It comes from "high levels of carboxyhemoglobin in the blood" not from livor mortis.
As far as showing the red/pink discoloration in a list of symptoms, show a list of symptoms with livor mortis included as a symptom of CO poisoning.
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Post by đđđ¨đđ on May 14, 2022 6:07:35 GMT
Nessie, the cherry-red color is from the COHb or carboxyhemoglobin in the blood, which does not increase after death because the person is no longer breathing â so the COHb concentration reaches a max about when the patient dies and is then never eliminated. However, if the patient does not die, the COHb levels go back to normal as the patient is removed from the source and the carbon monoxide clears from his system. I suppose the patient could still die during or even after his recovery, but that is besides the point. That the cherry-red color is so striking is why coroners describe the CO corpses that way, but emergency rooms do so less often because they have different priorities â namely expediting treatment over forensic analysis. Some emergency medical providers do not like using the cherry-red description as a diagnostic tool because they want patients routinely treated for suspected carbon monoxide in all possible situations, whether every symptom has presented or not, and even before any blood tests have been completed for confirmation of this. You wanted an example of somebody who was alive with carbon monoxide poisoning and had the telltale pink coloring. Well, below is a man in Sweden with a striking red face. Unfortunately the photo is in black & white, but the text is clear about what they are trying to show. On page 116, there are a few other photos of CO poisoned people who are alive as well, but none are in color. Here is the journal citation for the 1954 German language article, and the photograph above is on Page 122.  |
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