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Post by Ulios on Nov 10, 2021 20:01:06 GMT
There are numerous documents recording transports to the AR camps. Examples include the Hofle telegram, Ganzenmuller Letter, the Warsaw Shuttle train record, the Monastir to Treblinka transport report, referring to Treblinka as the "final destination" I go with what is evidenced to have happened. Trains were split, shunted into TII, the people disembarked, the vast majority going to the gas chambers and 6-9,000 were sent to work at other camps in Poland. That is about 1% of the arrivals, left TII. Those who claimed to have been to TII and then left were collated and listed by Eric Hunt here studylib.net/doc/7233192/treblinka-transit-list-editedHowever, a number of the witnesses listed, such as Helen Schwartz, are likely to be mistaken about having been to TII. She does not describe a camp that bears any resenblance to the TII as described by people who were there. It seems you go with whatever, fits your preconceptions; there is no need to repeat the "narrative" time again but to provide new information. The issue you have not proved is those transports arrived at a camp; it only seems you think they did without definitive proof. It is logical in any administration who has a presence to name nearby locations the same as the institution. For instance departures from London by air are referred simply as Heathrow (named after a small hamlet); no one assumes they are going to the location of the old town. As Treblinka like the other AR camps were border camps of course they are a final destination; there are customs to deal with. Not even the SS could bypass the revenue gatherers. They were going into a different district which was controlled in a different manner than the GG. To sort the paper work etc for border crossings would be timely; people also needed to be in different attire so a nearby camp would be needed. In the case of the AR camps, all near borders I suggest the border exit point is named after the nearest facility or town. There was an existing camp there which did have something to do with the border. Why murder people at the border? This could have been done anywhere; if they wanted to fool them let them cross the Bug to give a false sense of security. Instead of doing that these border camps a few km from the border were alleged to have done "the deed". I do hope you realize how absurd this seems. Helen Schwartz was never at Treblinka, only at Auschwitz and Belsen. In her biography she never mentions Treblinka at all, it is only you who have said this. This is nonsense and I think you well know. Aktion 14f13, also called invalid or prisoner euthanasia, the campaign culled the sick, elderly and those deemed no longer fit for work; this involved about 20 thousand people at the most. Not many would deny this Aktion was a fact; this is evidenced by the Sobibor Dutch survivors and highly unethical. What has happened is the conceptual slippery slope to mass exterminations. From this absurdity claims were made as though they were fact, with little or no evidence to support them. Euthanizing those not fit to work is hardly a holocaust nor is it genocide as the aim was not to get rid of a group; it was applied equally to all groups across the spectrum. It is only the Jews who seem to think they were the ones worthy of such horrors. Pierre Berg at Auschwitz (non Jew) got sick and thought he was going to be euthanized; this was the rumors going around. He did meet Dr Mengele who got extra nutritious rations for him; the same happened to Schlomo Pivnik a jew. Both men got better.
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Post by been_there on Nov 11, 2021 10:49:23 GMT
It seems you go with whatever, fits your preconceptions No, I follow the evidence... [snip]To encourage the preservation of only genuine discussion of history at the new RODOF forum, I request that this post โ and this my reply to it โ be removed. This is a repeated false statement that has been previously refuted and that refutation has been dodged and ignored. This person does not follow the empirically provable evidence at all. He instead ONLY relies upon discredited and non-credible lie-witness testimony from vengeful โsurvivorsโ plus upon physcally impossible and self-contradictory coerced โconfessionsโ.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2021 13:27:44 GMT
No, I follow the evidence... [snip]To encourage the preservation of only genuine discussion of history at the new RODOF forum, I request that this post โ and this my reply to it โ be removed. This is a repeated false statement that has been previously refuted and that refutation has been dodged and ignored. This person does not follow the empirically provable evidence at all. He instead ONLY relies upon discredited and non-credible lie-witness testimony from vengeful โsurvivorsโ plus upon physcally impossible and self-contradictory coerced โconfessionsโ. Examples of documentary evidence of mass transports to the AR camps;
- Hofle telegram - Ganzenmuller Letter - Ghetto records of transports - Stroop Report - Korherr Report - Warsaw shuttle train record
Examples of circumstantial evidence of mass transports to the AR camps;
- Frank report on the disposition of Jewish property - Globocnik report to Himmler on AR
Been-there is being dishonest when he claims that I "ONLY" rely on witnesses. There are NO documents recording regular mass transports back out of the AR camps or their arrival anywhere else. That issue is being dodged, because it drives a huge hole through revisionist claims the AR camps were not death camps.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 11, 2021 14:38:42 GMT
Of course there are records of Jews leaving T-II by the trainload but Nessie just dismisses those deportees as "being chosen for work". So, we're back to Nessie wailing, "Where did they gooooooo?".
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 11, 2021 17:42:34 GMT
We are obviously back to you wailing that you are being asked to evidence your claim TII was a transit camp and you have no evidence.
You say you have all this evidence, but that is only in your mind; it fails to convince others. Fraudulent eye witness testimony is not evidence but an attempted distortion of the truth. It is clear that only some of the transports arrived at AR camps, most by passing them. This is the same as those returning from Bialystok mentioned by Zabecki. We are trying to discern the truth, while Nessie is just peddling the mantra again.
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Post by ๐๐ฅ๐๐๐ณ๐ง๐จ๐๐ซ on Nov 11, 2021 17:50:21 GMT
Off topic posts and repeated content have been moved. I will remind posters of the rules: ๐ฆ๐๐ฎ๐ ๐ผ๐ป ๐๐ผ๐ฝ๐ถ๐ฐ. ๐๐ผ ๐ป๐ผ๐ ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฝ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ ๐๐ต๐ฒ ๐๐ฎ๐บ๐ฒ ๐บ๐ฎ๐ป๐๐ฟ๐ฎ ๐๐ป๐น๐ฒ๐๐ ๐ฎ๐๐ธ๐ฒ๐ฑ ๐ณ๐ผ๐ฟ ๐ฐ๐น๐ฎ๐ฟ๐ถ๐ณ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ถ๐ผ๐ป. ๐๐ผ ๐ป๐ผ๐ ๐ฑ๐ฒ๐ฟ๐ฎ๐ถ๐น. ๐๐ณ ๐๐ผ๐ ๐ต๐ฎ๐๐ฒ ๐ป๐ผ๐๐ต๐ถ๐ป๐ด ๐ป๐ฒ๐ ๐๐ผ ๐๐ฎ๐ ๐๐ต๐ฒ๐ป ๐ถ๐ ๐ถ๐ ๐ฏ๐ฒ๐๐ ๐๐ผ ๐๐ฎ๐ ๐ป๐ผ๐๐ต๐ถ๐ป๐ด. ๐๐ป๐ฒ๐ฒ ๐ท๐ฒ๐ฟ๐ธ ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฝ๐น๐ถ๐ฒ๐ ๐ป๐ผ๐ ๐ฎ๐ฐ๐ฐ๐ฒ๐ฝ๐๐ฎ๐ฏ๐น๐ฒ.
Repeat offenders will lose posting permissions in this section of the forum.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2021 19:29:19 GMT
Of course there are records of Jews leaving T-II by the trainload but Nessie just dismisses those deportees as "being chosen for work". So, we're back to Nessie wailing, "Where did they gooooooo?". My response to this post has been moved to "gibberish". I do not know why, since I agree with you that there is evidence of Jews leaving TII, how many Jews left and I explain why I say they were "chosen for work". I do not see how that is off topic.
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 11, 2021 19:59:29 GMT
I do not see how that is off topic. Your posts seem to be a mixture of on topic and off topic. I checked the "Gibberish" because my post is there as well. Nessie said: The green is on topic, the orange marginal but acceptable in the context. The red is off topic. The thread is on AR camp transports, not Treblinka, certainly not transit camps.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2021 20:12:34 GMT
A discussion about AR camp transports, but where TII transports are considered off topic, makes for a very disjointed discussion. Much of the evidence about transports relates to TII.
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 11, 2021 20:39:29 GMT
A discussion about AR camp transports, but where TII transports are considered off topic, makes for a very disjointed discussion. Much of the evidence about transports relates to TII. Whenever the transports to Belzec, Sobibor and elsewhere get discussed (on the old forum) the topic always changes to TII, transit camps and "where did they go", a total derail 
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