Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 8, 2021 12:28:33 GMT
The AR camp documents referring to transports, all record regular mass transports arriving at those camps. No record exists of regular mass transports leaving.
The witnesses who worked at the AR camps all speak of regular mass arrivals at those camps. None speak about regular mass departures.
The witnesses who worked nearby to the AR camps, in particular Polish rail workers, all speak to regular mass arrivals at those camps and either do not speak to mass departures, or they speak to empty trains leaving, or trains only carrying property.
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Velรฒhaven
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Post by Velรฒhaven on Nov 8, 2021 18:02:25 GMT
This is the issue, it is possible the transports arrived at a generalized border location to which there were a complex of camps there to deal with a border situation for whatever purpose. It is a leap of faith to assume all the people on the transports disembarked; obviously transports carried on due to the people arriving in Latvia and Bobruysk and Minsk.
The witnesses at those camps have little credibility so enough said about them. However, the Sobibor witnesses speak of arriving at that location; they did not say all got off the train but there were euthanasia selections. The rail workers are connected in the most part to underground resistance movement, so there is an issue of bias. They say what they were told to say, like Zabecki.
This thread you started is on transports which is fine, you have presented some evidence (we can ask for details later). The latter part highlighted above presupposes an attitude and off topic. There can be no mass departures if there were no mass arrivals; you need to prove that people arrived in those quantities at those places and not moved through. As the witnesses lack credibility and potentially compromised something else is needed to advance your case.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 8, 2021 18:43:12 GMT
There are numerous documents recording transports to the AR camps. Examples include the Hofle telegram, Ganzenmuller Letter, the Warsaw Shuttle train record, the Monastir to Treblinka transport report, referring to Treblinka as the "final destination" and then there are the numerous ghetto transit records that have enabled historians to put together timelines of transports to the AR camps.
All of those records have survived. There is no record at all, of regular mass transports back out of the AR camps, or arrivals anywhere else.
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 9, 2021 13:17:31 GMT
There are numerous documents recording transports to the AR camps. Examples include the Hofle telegram, Ganzenmuller Letter, the Warsaw Shuttle train record, the Monastir to Treblinka transport report, referring to Treblinka as the "final destination" and then there are the numerous ghetto transit records that have enabled historians to put together timelines of transports to the AR camps. All of those records have survived. There is no record at all, of regular mass transports back out of the AR camps, or arrivals anywhere else. So, again, why do revisionists do everything possible to try and dodge debating their lack of evidence of mass transports back out of the AR camps? Please show the forum a record where a particular camp was mentioned and not the nearby town. The Hรถfle telegram is inconclusive, the letters may represent towns or customs points. There are many examples, some given on the previous forum of people allegedly sent to Treblinka for extermination, made a fact but they ended up elsewhere. The people from the Polish village of Ciechanow is a prime example. It was reported they were all rounded up and sent to Treblinka, all 80 thousand of them. The reality is that about 75 thousand were sent to the Russian East while occupied by the Soviets, the rest being sent to Auschwitz. This shows that many of those reports are unreliable. There can be no record of mass exits out of any place if they did not arrive in the first place. There is huge documentation of people arriving in Ostland. The 600 camps there were not just for the scouts.
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Post by ๐๐ฅ๐๐๐ณ๐ง๐จ๐๐ซ on Nov 9, 2021 13:25:38 GMT
Off topic posts have been relocated to logic & absurdities. Stick to the topic please gentlemen.
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 9, 2021 18:12:05 GMT
The topic is about the evidence of transports to the AR camps AND the lack of evidence of transports from the AR camps. Why is that? There is no point in further discussion if only transports to the AR camps are allowed to be part of the topic. The topic is in the AR camps sub board, so it has to relate to AR camps. No one cares if you make a passing comment about other transports to highlight a point so long as that does not become the main thread topic. You can make a post on other transports (or anything else) in the Holocaust and Genocide matters of interest board. It says clearly, if there is interest in the topic a new separate thread or whatever will be made to cater for it.
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 9, 2021 20:01:25 GMT
I was only discussing AR camp transports. That is great. I often make posts, re read them and think, "what the hell is that about", then delete whole paragraphs; no one is perfect. How do you know that the wagons did not back into the siding or spur (if PR is wrong), drop off a few hundred people, allow people to embark and move on to Siedlce with the new people and the rest who stayed in their carriages. The evidence Turnagain supplied about 10 thousand or so relocating elsewhere got on transports somehow. We need more clarification on that point if he has it.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 9, 2021 20:13:55 GMT
I go with what is evidenced to have happened. Trains were split, shunted into TII, the people disembarked, the vast majority going to the gas chambers and 6-9,000 were sent to work at other camps in Poland. That is about 1% of the arrivals, left TII. Those who claimed to have been to TII and then left were collated and listed by Eric Hunt here studylib.net/doc/7233192/treblinka-transit-list-editedHowever, a number of the witnesses listed, such as Helen Schwartz, are likely to be mistaken about having been to TII. She does not describe a camp that bears any resenblance to the TII as described by people who were there.
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 9, 2021 20:28:29 GMT
I go with what is evidenced to have happened. Trains were split, shunted into TII, the people disembarked, the vast majority going to the gas chambers and 6-9,000 were sent to work at other camps in Poland. That is about 1% of the arrivals, left TII. Those who claimed to have been to TII and then left were collated and listed by Eric Hunt here studylib.net/doc/7233192/treblinka-transit-list-editedHowever, a number of the witnesses listed, such as Helen Schwartz, are likely to be mistaken about having been to TII. She does not describe a camp that bears any resenblance to the TII as described by people who were there. Not all evidence and eyewitness testimony is reliable. As Sobibor had various functions: work classification, sorting valuables and euthanasia then it is likely that Treblinka had a similar theme. ( I don't care if the euthanized were gassed or shot, hanged or injected with strychnine). The assessment of witness credibility is important but outside the scope of this thread; that can be discussed elsewhere. If there are transports across the Bug to wherever, they (the Nazis) would not want the elderly and infirm to head there; the best idea is to get them dealt with while the valuables were confiscated in the same place. As the prisoners were just whisked off the street and onto transports for the most part they were given inmate clothing (striped pajamas or whatever); the best place is some camp near the border so that clothes do not need to be sent to the various judenlagers 100km away. Trains going to those places are for troops and ammo etc not inmate garb. I am putting it to you Nessie that like Sobibor where euthanasia was mistaken for "extermination" and people moved on as the witnesses stated, Treblinka and perhaps Belzec all border camps at one time or another had a similar function.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 10, 2021 14:55:34 GMT
Call it euthanasia or extermination, it amounts to the same, the Nazis killed those they regarded as of no use. They cleared ghettos to the AR camps, where the last of the people's property was stolen from them and then most were gassed, with some exceptions when workers were needed. Hence the lack of evidence of mass transports back out of the camps. The evidence and the narrative of AR fits.
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