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Post by been_there on Dec 11, 2021 14:25:42 GMT
Yeah, I wonder why no Jewish โwitnessesโ gave testimony that contradicted the โspecial-suffering, eternal-victim, โpoor usโ, emerging H-narrative. Hmmmm? Strange, that!? By the way, Raul Hilberg put the figure of Jews killed by the Einsatsgruppen at 1.4 million. Also... the initial claim for jews killed at Majdanek was 1.4 million (it later had to be reduced to 78,000). And... the claim of numbers of Jews killed in just the Ukraine is ....[wait for it]... yes, you guessed, ...it is 1.4 million.
 Then there is this from the BBC on the very convenient story of a non-credible manuscript miraculously found at Auschwitz:  Does this number perhaps have some special mythological significance for Jews, as the โ6 millionโ figure does? ๐ค Your lengthy post didnโt address my post at all. I suggest it did. What I think has occurred is that your faith in this closed โHโ belief-system has blinded you, making you unable to comprehend anything outside of its narrow acceptable parameters. No, that is not correct. Firstly, โRevisionistsโ are merely people interested in accurate history and who therefore question and seek to revise obviously false or unsubstantisted historically inaccurate narratives. โRevisionistsโ are therefore not a set group, with a fixed and never-changing belief. You appear to be psychologicaly projecting. โRevisionistsโ in this case would be anyone who seeks to revise ANY PART of the protected โholocaustโ closed and legally protected belief-system. E.g. I myself do not affirm that T2 was soley a transit camp. Though I do believe the evidence of those Jewish people who said they were transited through Treblnka. Do you not believe them? Neither do I โdenyโ that Jewish people met their end there, by whatever means. So for them it could accurately be described as an โexterminationโ camp. Though I do know with surety that CURRENTLY there is no credible, documentary or forensic (empirical) evidence that they did in the numbers claimed, by the methods claimed and were disposed of in the way and place claimed. IF YOU can provide that evidence I will be grateful. So please go ahead. Obviously because it would not help them in the least. If you havenโt understood even this yet, it does rather show you are not able to approach the topic reasonably, rationally, intelligently, impartially and unemotionally |
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Post by Nessie on Dec 11, 2021 15:14:29 GMT
.... The revisionist narrative is that Treblinka was a transit camp and not an extermination camp, but no revisionist can explain why none of the Jews who were allegedly transited from Treblinka to the East ever wrote or spoke about that policy being carried out. The revisionists got very excited when Eric Hunt produced his videos claiming TII was a transit camp. But they failed to check what the witnesses he used actually said in full. Exactly. For example, Hunt makes out the witness Helen Schwartz went from TII to Majdanek, but her testimony is that she went from Majdanek to TII. Hunt misses out much of the witness testimony, that reveals they all went to labour camps, such as at Budzyn, Majdanek and Poniatowa, which are either west or south of TII, and still in Poland. None went to the east. Those witnesses all believe TII was a death camp, which normally would make them liars according to the revisionists. But for some reason they cannot explain, they suspend their normal disbelief and claim those witnesses are all credible and truthful. Witnesses such as Sam Kulawy, who said he left in a full train and went to A-B, made their claims when interviewed in the 1980s. How reliable is a witness, who went to various camps, 40 years after the event, as to which camp he was at. In any case, A-B records show arrivals from Malkinia, the transit point near to the Treblinka camps. The witness claims about selections to be sent to work in labour camps, are the same as witness claims at Sobibor, Belzec and best known of all, at A-B. The Nazis involved were all tried in German courts, who took a very sympathetic view to what they had done, with lenient sentences and many acquittals. They had ample opportunity to set the record straight and say what had happened, if the AR camps were not death camps. There is no evidence of mass transports back out if the AR camps, of 1.27 million people by the end of 1942, rising to 1.5 million by the end of 1943. That is why revisionists hate to discuss this topic in any detail and instead they resort to arguments from incredulity. |
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Post by Nessie on Dec 11, 2021 16:28:03 GMT
I donโt need to do that. Thatโs not how history and evidence work. I see that youโve still not learnt a thing since our last interactions a couple of years ago. You need to be on your best behaviour on this forum though, hehe. That's not how history and evidence works on the Klown's forum. In the real world, proof of your accusation of mass murder must be proved. You are asking for lab testing, because you have been provided with expert opinion that the remains are cremated bits of bone and the larger remains are identified as human. You then thought up an excuse to reject the lab testing that was done at Sobibor, which confirmed human remains.
You then provide no archaeological, physical or forensic evidence to back up your claims that the ground disturbances at the AR camps are insufficient to have been from mass graves and that hundreds of thousands of people were buried and cremated at those places. You reverse the burden of proof and demand we prove you wrong.
This thread is about transports, so back to that topic. You have no evidence of regular mass transports back out of the AR camps.
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Post by goody on Dec 11, 2021 16:31:09 GMT
I donโt need to do that. Thatโs not how history and evidence work. I see that youโve still not learnt a thing since our last interactions a couple of years ago. You need to be on your best behaviour on this forum though, hehe. That's not how history and evidence works on the Klown's forum.ย In the real world, proof of your accusation of mass murder must be proved. Please provide evidence of mass transports from Treblinka. Did the Jews who you claim werenโt murdered go to the Russian East as the Nazis claimed they did? Or, did the Nazis lie? |
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Dec 11, 2021 17:19:09 GMT
It did not. Instead you just showed your lack of sympathy for the millions of families even today who lost their loved ones by the genocide carried out by the Nazis. Genocide as prescribed by Article II does not equate to the Holocaust. While the holocaust is genocidal, genocide is not the Holocaust. See thread. It may well be that Holocaust adherents fail to acknowledge the real victims of genocide, fail to give them the dignity they deserve by adhering to a false ideology. That aside this post is off topic which should be about AR transports. |
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Post by ๐๐ฌ๐ซ๐๐๐ on Dec 11, 2021 17:39:42 GMT
Off topic posts have been removed. While some of the content was on topic, the personal additions make the posts unpalatable.
Please stick to the topic of AR transports, the evidence for or against without discussing flaws of evidencing, personal attributes or continuing to ask about dissolution unless it supports some new information.
Thank you for your co-operation.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 12, 2021 10:34:49 GMT
Goody wrote:
Goody (and Nessie) are essentially asking, "Where did they goooooo"? Which, of course gets it arse to front. The question isn't "where did they go" but, "Were the Jews gassed/steamed/suffocated or murdered by some means at Treblinka?". If the Jews were murdered then they're still at Treblinka. According to the official narrative their cremains are at Treblinka, that is.
Mass murder is your accusation of the Germans. Saying, "If the Jews weren't murdered then where did they go" isn't proof that they were actually murdered. The accusation of mass murder is an extraordinary accusation and requires some extraordinary proof. Testimony by biased/coerced witnesses simply isn't enough. Especially since the testimony is vague, contradictory and filled with obvious lies. Is there any evidence that can still be produced that would confirm that mass murder did in fact take place? The answer is "yes".
Can the gas/steam/vacuum chambers be proved to exist? No. Can the means of cremation be proven? No. However, if 700,000 cadavers were first buried then the graves can be proven to exist. Such ground disturbances simply can't be hidden from GPR and other means of recording underground structure. Cremains don't degrade so if the Jews were murdered and cremated then their cremains still exist. If that's the case then there are ~2,000-2,500 TONS of human cremains located somewhere around Treblinka. The official account has the cremains being thrown back into a grave(s).
At six (6) lbs of cremains per cadaver and one cubic inch of cremains per pound of weight that amounts to ~6,200 (6,173) cubic yards of cremains. Those numbers are estimates but can be taken as reasonably accurate. That would amount to ~205-210 truckloads of cremains using modern 18 wheeler truck and pups, belly dumps or side dumps.
I'm continually amazed at the exterminationists lack of practical knowledge concerning the scale of their claims. Nessie likens the cremation process to a backyard barbeque. The notion that the M&H draglines both excavated and stockpiled the ex from the graves as described by Wiernik and Rajchman with no auxiliary equipment is mind boggling.
The fact remains that if the Jews were murdered at Treblinka then YOU must provide some reasonable proof of that claim. So far, no exterminationist has come even remotely close to doing that.
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Post by Nessie on Dec 12, 2021 17:41:07 GMT
Goody wrote: Goody (and Nessie) are essentially asking, "Where did they goooooo"? Which, of course gets it arse to front. No, it is asking revisionists to evidence their claims. You believe it was a transit camp, and you have copied Eric Hunt's attempt to evidence that, whilst failing to acknowledge hewas debunked and admitted he had been debunked. Which makes the "where did they go?" question very relevant. If you claim they were not gassed, they had to have left the camp, that is basic logic. When you cannot answer "where did they go?", that logically means the only evidenced alternative is they were gassed. Again, basic logic. Logically, since there is no evidence they left the camp and were transported and resettled elsewhere, then that proves your doubts about the gassing narratives are wrong. Your doubts are based on a series of arguments from incredulity and ignorance, where you take witnesses far too literally and fail to understand how witnesses behave, and you then come up with bogus reasons to dismiss the physical evidence found at the camp sites. You are defeated by logic, as well as the evidence. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 12, 2021 18:42:54 GMT
Nessie wrote: No, I haven't unequivocally claimed that Treblinka was a transit camp. What I've said on numerous occasions is that I don't give a fat rat's patootie about where the Jews went. I have said that Treblinka most likely functioned as a transit camp and offered the testimony of the witnesses in Hunt's video as evidence of that. That and I've pointed out the impossibilities of the claims made by the alleged eyewitnesses. You've responded with claims of "misestimations", "exaggerations" and other such tripe.
Horse frocky! The idiotic, "Where did they goooo?" question is totally irrelevant to the exterminationist's claim that the Jews were murdered at Treblinka. Exterminationists accuse the Germans of committing mass murder; genocide. You must PROVE beyond a doubt that the Germans are guilty of that crime and you haven't done that. All you've done is offer your half-assed excuses for the blatant lies of the alleged eyewitnesses. NOBODY has proven beyond any doubt that the mass graves or the cremains of ~850,000 people exist at Treblinka. If you can prove your case for genocide then the question of, "Where did they goooo?" is totally irrelevant.
There IS evidence that deportees left the camp. Saying that there isn't is a baldfaced lie. According to US military intelligence reports there's even confusion about the location of the Treblinka extermination facility. There is also the accepted evidence that steam was the murder weapon. See PS 3011, IMT. Claiming that genocide at Treblinka is a proven fact is complete and utter bullshit. The fact remains that there's no unequivocal proof of mass graves capable of containing ~700,000 cadavers and no verifiable proof for the cremains of ~850,000 people. Finito. End of story. Provide your PROOF or give it a rest. |
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Post by Nessie on Dec 13, 2021 11:38:33 GMT
Nessie wrote: No, I haven't unequivocally claimed that Treblinka was a transit camp. What I've said on numerous occasions is that I don't give a fat rat's patootie about where the Jews went. I have said that Treblinka most likely functioned as a transit camp and offered the testimony of the witnesses in Hunt's video as evidence of that. That and I've pointed out the impossibilities of the claims made by the alleged eyewitnesses. You've responded with claims of "misestimations", "exaggerations" and other such tripe. Thank you for admitting you believe TII was a transit camp, without there being evidence to do so. That you not only believe in what you admit you cannot evidence, you declare it does not matter you cannot evidence it! How do you think that is a credible belief? Explain how a belief in mass transports, without any evidence of mass transports, is credible. There is only evidence of some mass transports, which went to labour camps in Poland. For TII, the total was at most 2% of the transports that arrived, left the camp. That is consistent with evidence from other AR camps and A-B, of occasional selections, to send people to work elsewhere in Poland. It is not evidence of resettlement in the east. It is the opposite of that. |
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 13, 2021 17:14:24 GMT
Nessie first admits that the records for transports to and from Treblinka are incomplete, anecdotal and even fragmentary. He then goes on to claim that the witnesses in Hunt's video are the total number of witnesses who left Treblinka alive and the people who left with them are the only deportees to ever have left Treblinka alive. Nessie has apparently received that information from holyhoax la-la land since there's no basis in the real world to make such an assumption.
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Post by Nessie on Dec 13, 2021 19:59:16 GMT
Nessie first admits that the records for transports to and from Treblinka are incomplete, anecdotal and even fragmentary. He then goes on to claim that the witnesses in Hunt's video are the total number of witnesses who left Treblinka alive and the people who left with them are the only deportees to ever have left Treblinka alive. Nessie has apparently received that information from holyhoax la-la land since there's no basis in the real world to make such an assumption. The ghetto evidence, such as the Warsaw shuttle train record, proves trains left the ghettos full and no one returned, as they were being closed down. The Warsaw record accounts for about 1/3 of all the trains arriving at TII, leaving empty. That alone means your claim that the vast majority who arrived, also left, is disproved.
Then we have not one single witness who worked inside TII stating mass transports left the camp. That would have been a superb defence for the Nazis, but even they admitted people were gassed, not transported onwards. The Polish rail workers also report mass arrivals and empty trains leaving. The local farmer's son, Marian Olszuk admits there were mass arrivals and he states nothing about mass departures.
The witnesses in Hunts video only evidence a few transports to labour camps in Poland, so that is not evidence of mass resettlement in the east. So, I am not making assumptions. I am following the evidence.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Dec 13, 2021 23:18:11 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Another little strawman from Nessie. I didn't claim that the vast majority who arrived at Treblinka left. What I did say was that the lack of records results in an indeterminate number of deportees who left Treblinka. Again you cite witnesses who worked in camp two but refuse to name any such witness or post a link to their coherent and reliable testimony. You post your laundry list as a weasel dodge of that request.
Nessie's score so far, one strawman and a weasel dodge. Then we have:
Hunt's witnesses show that at least 15-20,000 deportees left Treblinka. There is no proof or even evidence that they were the only deportees to leave Treblinka. That's contrary to what Black of the USHMM and Arad both claimed for Treblinka. What evidence are you following that leads you to make the assumption that no deportees ever left Treblinka and were transported to the East?
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Post by Nessie on Dec 14, 2021 11:55:28 GMT
Nessie wrote: Another little strawman from Nessie. I didn't claim that the vast majority who arrived at Treblinka left. What I did say was that the lack of records results in an indeterminate number of deportees who left Treblinka. Again you cite witnesses who worked in camp two but refuse to name any such witness or post a link to their coherent and reliable testimony. You post your laundry list as a weasel dodge of that request. Nessie's score so far, one strawman and a weasel dodge. The lack of records is not as much as you suggest. The Warsaw record alone accounts for around a third of all the transports arriving, having left empty. Other ghettos also sent trains to TII as they were being closed down, so it stands to reason that they also left empty. Ghetto documents (the Fahrplananordnung) evidence transports to the camp. Those ghettos were closing, so any train returning, like the Warsaw trains, returned empty to get more people from the ghettos. Since the vast majority of transports to TII were from ghettos as they were being closed down, there is a lot of documentary and circumstantial evidence of full trains arriving and empty trains leaving. That leaves the few thousand for whom there are witnesses. You ask for names and links, I give you names and links and you dismiss that as a laundry list and ask again. The people named in the link all worked inside TII and speak to mass arrivals that were processed and those people were gassed. None speak to transports back out of the camp. That is why you are dismissing that evidence, none of the witnesses say you want to hear. You were happy with a laundry list of the people who say they were sent to TII and left.  That is not true, there is evidence from documents and witnesses. Some sources do claim no one left TII, but there are wrong. I am following the evidence from documents and all the witnesses who worked inside TII and Polish railworkers of the vast majority of trains that arrived, then left empty or carrying property, with only a very occasional transport of people. I am also following the lack of any evidence from camps or ghettos in the east, that record or otherwise evidence receiving mass transports from the AR camps. What evidence are you following? |
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Post by Agandaur on Dec 14, 2021 12:08:51 GMT
The lack of records is not as much as you suggest. The Warsaw record alone accounts for around a third of all the transports arriving, having left empty. Other ghettos also sent trains to TII as they were being closed down, so it stands to reason that they also left empty. Ghetto documents (the Fahrplananordnung) evidence transports to the camp. Those ghettos were closing, so any train returning, like the Warsaw trains, returned empty to get more people from the ghettos. Since the vast majority of transports to TII were from ghettos as they were being closed down, there is a lot of documentary and circumstantial evidence of full trains arriving and empty trains leaving. That leaves the few thousand for whom there are witnesses. The stuff about witnesses and evidencing are irrelevant for this thread (and most others) The records you speak of, which camp or location is on those? : Do they specify Treblinka or TII. Trains of course left Warsaw to transport people. It would be assumed no one would return to the same place if they are Jewish. What evidence is there that the returned trains came directly from Treblinka?; the exact camp spoken so often of. It is quite possible that trains from Treblinka, wherever that was, continued south and other trains returned on the other duel track. It is mentioned that only some of the transport wagons were unloaded at Treblinka, the rest continued; if so this puts a to rest the myth of empty wagons. Of course empty wagons returned to the origin, empty of people, but it can be guaranteed they would have been full of items. |
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