Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2021 20:50:47 GMT
OK. There is no evidence of regular mass transports back out of Sobibor or Belzec, so why should anyone believe what is not evidenced to have happened?
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 11, 2021 21:02:28 GMT
OK. There is no evidence of regular mass transports back out of Sobibor or Belzec, so why should anyone believe what is not evidenced to have happened? A Treblinka transport thread has been created for you in the Treblinka sub forum. There is no evidence of regular disembarkation of people at Sobibor or Belzec; some people were removed from the trains, not all. Some Dutch Survivors said they embarked on a train and it moved on. At Sobibor nearby camps are within trucking distance. This is mentioned a few times by people who disembarked at Sobibor and were taken to Trawniki. The last comment about evidencing is off topic and could be construed or misconstrued as an attempt to derail. It is a question which people cannot answer for that reason.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2021 21:20:03 GMT
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 11, 2021 22:41:00 GMT
Information on the transports from Westerbork in the Netherlands to Sobibor here; Every single witness speaks to arriving at Sobibor, being selected to work and the rest of the transport being taken away, and either shot or gassed. By the end of the war, there were only 18 known survivors out of 34,313 people sent to Sobibor. When the camp was excavated, four Dutch children's name tags were found. Sobibor was near Wlodawa the exit point to the Ukraine and Bialystok, it was here that statistical information was collated as to the transports. Some obviously disembarked at Sobibor, embarked again and the train moved on. Jetje Veterman mentions that the train stopped at Sobibor the men and woman separated. The woman were asked if they wished to work, despite the suggestion of selections. Jetse says: It is clear from this description there were more than 18 survivors as most of the woman embarked aboard the train again. She is unsure what happened to the men. So these Dutch females were taken to the border camp and then to Lublin; seems little point to be transported to an extermination camp only to be sent on their way again. The only reason for this is that the men were to cross the border, but that is speculation at this stage, though it is known that inmates did walk; this could be the only reason for the transport bi passing Auschwitz (why not exterminate them there?) locating the woman to another camp. Here is the shortest path to Sobibor from Auschwitz by train in yellow, the movement to the marmalade factory near Lublin in blue. [/a][/div]
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 12, 2021 9:19:29 GMT
Which means the only evidence, is the evidence of Dutch Jews being sent to work in other camps in Poland from Sobibor.
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 12, 2021 17:39:15 GMT
Nessie said: Lets see what the Dutch people (1943) have to say about this:
- Alex Cohen:...17 March
The men were immediately separated from the women and children. The camp SS called out they needed workers and Cohen volunteered as a metal worker. He and the other selected men were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp.
- Judith Eliazar..10 March
Together with the other selected women Judith and Bertha were taken to Lublin-Majdanek.
- Jules Schelvis:...1 June
From among the men a group of eighty young men were selected for, so it seemed, the Jewish camp police and Schelvis managed to get included in the group. As it turned out the men were chosen to work in a nearby camp
- Joseph Wins
:...11 May Wins was among the eighty men who were taken from his transport to be brought to the nearby Dorohucza labour camp.
This thread is not about the camp use but the transports which in this case were internal within the GG. Just from the statements above it is blatantly obvious that there were far more than 18 known survivors out of 34,313 people sent to Sobibor as claimed above; Jules & Joseph mention 160 people alone and that is just two transports and what they saw. One could postulate it was the vast majority who moved on the same transport. It is clear people disembarked and embarked on the same transport in most of the witness statements.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 12, 2021 20:12:11 GMT
Nessie said: Lets see what the Dutch people (1943) have to say about this:
- Alex Cohen:...17 March
The men were immediately separated from the women and children. The camp SS called out they needed workers and Cohen volunteered as a metal worker. He and the other selected men were herded back onto the train and transported to the Lublin-Majdanek camp.
- Judith Eliazar..10 March
Together with the other selected women Judith and Bertha were taken to Lublin-Majdanek.
- Jules Schelvis:...1 June
From among the men a group of eighty young men were selected for, so it seemed, the Jewish camp police and Schelvis managed to get included in the group. As it turned out the men were chosen to work in a nearby camp
- Joseph Wins
:...11 May Wins was among the eighty men who were taken from his transport to be brought to the nearby Dorohucza labour camp.
This thread is not about the camp use but the transports which in this case were internal within the GG. Just from the statements above it is blatantly obvious that there were far more than 18 known survivors out of 34,313 people sent to Sobibor as claimed above; Jules & Joseph mention 160 people alone and that is just two transports and what they saw. One could postulate it was the vast majority who moved on the same transport. It is clear people disembarked and embarked on the same transport in most of the witness statements. You are confused. By the end of the war, there were only 18 known survivors. More than 18 Dutch Jews survived the selections on arriving at Sobibor in 1943.
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Agandaur
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Post by Agandaur on Nov 13, 2021 1:51:47 GMT
You are confused. By the end of the war, there were only 18 known survivors. More than 18 Dutch Jews survived the selections on arriving at Sobibor in 1943. Reading your post, the implication was that 18 people survived being in Sobibor (the assumption in the minds of others is the rest were murdered at that place). Now there is some back tracking, very fast pedaling indeed, now there is the claim they merely did not survive the war. This has nothing to do with the transports or Sobibor. Other readers can clearly see what the poster was trying to do here. 
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 21, 2021 11:07:37 GMT
... There is no evidence of regular disembarkation of people at Sobibor or Belzec; some people were removed from the trains, not all. ... Albert Ganzenmรผller was the Secretary of State for the Ministry of Transport and head of the German Reichsbahn. In July 1942 he wrote the following to a member of Himmler's staff; www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/pic/ganzenmueller2.jpgIt references daily trains to Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec. Stop pretending that there is "no evidence". Fact up to the fact that there is no corresponding evidence of regular mass transports from those camps.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Nov 21, 2021 12:40:50 GMT
There are statements from credible witnesses that there were mass transports of Jews from T-II. Nessie claims that these witnesses are the only witnesses but in fact their statements are the only ones recorded. The total number of deportees from T-II is unknown. On the other hand, there's NO credible witnesses to Jews being systematically murdered at T-II. Neither does any unequivocal evidence of mass murder exist.
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