Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Nov 8, 2021 12:28:33 GMT
The AR camp documents referring to transports, all record regular mass transports arriving at those camps. No record exists of regular mass transports leaving.
The witnesses who worked at the AR camps all speak of regular mass arrivals at those camps. None speak about regular mass departures.
The witnesses who worked nearby to the AR camps, in particular Polish rail workers, all speak to regular mass arrivals at those camps and either do not speak to mass departures, or they speak to empty trains leaving, or trains only carrying property.
|
|
|
Post by ๐๐จ๐๐๐ซ๐๐ญ๐จ๐ซ on Nov 8, 2021 18:02:25 GMT
This is the issue, it is possible the transports arrived at a generalized border location to which there were a complex of camps there to deal with a border situation for whatever purpose. It is a leap of faith to assume all the people on the transports disembarked; obviously transports carried on due to the people arriving in Latvia and Bobruysk and Minsk.
The witnesses at those camps have little credibility so enough said about them. However, the Sobibor witnesses speak of arriving at that location; they did not say all got off the train but there were euthanasia selections. The rail workers are connected in the most part to underground resistance movement, so there is an issue of bias. They say what they were told to say, like Zabecki.
This thread you started is on transports which is fine, you have presented some evidence (we can ask for details later). The latter part highlighted above presupposes an attitude and off topic. There can be no mass departures if there were no mass arrivals; you need to prove that people arrived in those quantities at those places and not moved through. As the witnesses lack credibility and potentially compromised something else is needed to advance your case.
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Nov 8, 2021 18:43:12 GMT
There are numerous documents recording transports to the AR camps. Examples include the Hofle telegram, Ganzenmuller Letter, the Warsaw Shuttle train record, the Monastir to Treblinka transport report, referring to Treblinka as the "final destination" and then there are the numerous ghetto transit records that have enabled historians to put together timelines of transports to the AR camps.
All of those records have survived. There is no record at all, of regular mass transports back out of the AR camps, or arrivals anywhere else.
|
|
|
Post by Sandhurst on Nov 9, 2021 13:17:31 GMT
There are numerous documents recording transports to the AR camps. Examples include the Hofle telegram, Ganzenmuller Letter, the Warsaw Shuttle train record, the Monastir to Treblinka transport report, referring to Treblinka as the "final destination" and then there are the numerous ghetto transit records that have enabled historians to put together timelines of transports to the AR camps. All of those records have survived. There is no record at all, of regular mass transports back out of the AR camps, or arrivals anywhere else. So, again, why do revisionists do everything possible to try and dodge debating their lack of evidence of mass transports back out of the AR camps? Please show the forum a record where a particular camp was mentioned and not the nearby town. The Hรถfle telegram is inconclusive, the letters may represent towns or customs points. There are many examples, some given on the previous forum of people allegedly sent to Treblinka for extermination, made a fact but they ended up elsewhere. The people from the Polish village of Ciechanow is a prime example. It was reported they were all rounded up and sent to Treblinka, all 80 thousand of them. The reality is that about 75 thousand were sent to the Russian East while occupied by the Soviets, the rest being sent to Auschwitz. This shows that many of those reports are unreliable. There can be no record of mass exits out of any place if they did not arrive in the first place. There is huge documentation of people arriving in Ostland. The 600 camps there were not just for the scouts.
|
|
|
Post by ๐๐ฅ๐๐๐ณ๐ง๐จ๐๐ซ on Nov 9, 2021 13:25:38 GMT
Off topic posts have been relocated to logic & absurdities. Stick to the topic please gentlemen.
|
|
|
Post by Sandhurst on Nov 9, 2021 18:12:05 GMT
The topic is about the evidence of transports to the AR camps AND the lack of evidence of transports from the AR camps. Why is that? There is no point in further discussion if only transports to the AR camps are allowed to be part of the topic. The topic is in the AR camps sub board, so it has to relate to AR camps. No one cares if you make a passing comment about other transports to highlight a point so long as that does not become the main thread topic. You can make a post on other transports (or anything else) in the Holocaust and Genocide matters of interest board. It says clearly, if there is interest in the topic a new separate thread or whatever will be made to cater for it.
|
|
|
Post by Sandhurst on Nov 9, 2021 20:01:25 GMT
I was only discussing AR camp transports. That is great. I often make posts, re read them and think, "what the hell is that about", then delete whole paragraphs; no one is perfect. How do you know that the wagons did not back into the siding or spur (if PR is wrong), drop off a few hundred people, allow people to embark and move on to Siedlce with the new people and the rest who stayed in their carriages. The evidence Turnagain supplied about 10 thousand or so relocating elsewhere got on transports somehow. We need more clarification on that point if he has it.
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Nov 9, 2021 20:13:55 GMT
I go with what is evidenced to have happened. Trains were split, shunted into TII, the people disembarked, the vast majority going to the gas chambers and 6-9,000 were sent to work at other camps in Poland. That is about 1% of the arrivals, left TII. Those who claimed to have been to TII and then left were collated and listed by Eric Hunt here studylib.net/doc/7233192/treblinka-transit-list-editedHowever, a number of the witnesses listed, such as Helen Schwartz, are likely to be mistaken about having been to TII. She does not describe a camp that bears any resenblance to the TII as described by people who were there.
|
|
|
Post by Sandhurst on Nov 9, 2021 20:28:29 GMT
I go with what is evidenced to have happened. Trains were split, shunted into TII, the people disembarked, the vast majority going to the gas chambers and 6-9,000 were sent to work at other camps in Poland. That is about 1% of the arrivals, left TII. Those who claimed to have been to TII and then left were collated and listed by Eric Hunt here studylib.net/doc/7233192/treblinka-transit-list-editedHowever, a number of the witnesses listed, such as Helen Schwartz, are likely to be mistaken about having been to TII. She does not describe a camp that bears any resenblance to the TII as described by people who were there. Not all evidence and eyewitness testimony is reliable. As Sobibor had various functions: work classification, sorting valuables and euthanasia then it is likely that Treblinka had a similar theme. ( I don't care if the euthanized were gassed or shot, hanged or injected with strychnine). The assessment of witness credibility is important but outside the scope of this thread; that can be discussed elsewhere. If there are transports across the Bug to wherever, they (the Nazis) would not want the elderly and infirm to head there; the best idea is to get them dealt with while the valuables were confiscated in the same place. As the prisoners were just whisked off the street and onto transports for the most part they were given inmate clothing (striped pajamas or whatever); the best place is some camp near the border so that clothes do not need to be sent to the various judenlagers 100km away. Trains going to those places are for troops and ammo etc not inmate garb. I am putting it to you Nessie that like Sobibor where euthanasia was mistaken for "extermination" and people moved on as the witnesses stated, Treblinka and perhaps Belzec all border camps at one time or another had a similar function.
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Nov 10, 2021 14:55:34 GMT
Call it euthanasia or extermination, it amounts to the same, the Nazis killed those they regarded as of no use. They cleared ghettos to the AR camps, where the last of the people's property was stolen from them and then most were gassed, with some exceptions when workers were needed. Hence the lack of evidence of mass transports back out of the camps. The evidence and the narrative of AR fits.
|
|
|
Post by Ulios on Nov 10, 2021 20:01:06 GMT
There are numerous documents recording transports to the AR camps. Examples include the Hofle telegram, Ganzenmuller Letter, the Warsaw Shuttle train record, the Monastir to Treblinka transport report, referring to Treblinka as the "final destination" I go with what is evidenced to have happened. Trains were split, shunted into TII, the people disembarked, the vast majority going to the gas chambers and 6-9,000 were sent to work at other camps in Poland. That is about 1% of the arrivals, left TII. Those who claimed to have been to TII and then left were collated and listed by Eric Hunt here studylib.net/doc/7233192/treblinka-transit-list-editedHowever, a number of the witnesses listed, such as Helen Schwartz, are likely to be mistaken about having been to TII. She does not describe a camp that bears any resenblance to the TII as described by people who were there. It seems you go with whatever, fits your preconceptions; there is no need to repeat the "narrative" time again but to provide new information. The issue you have not proved is those transports arrived at a camp; it only seems you think they did without definitive proof. It is logical in any administration who has a presence to name nearby locations the same as the institution. For instance departures from London by air are referred simply as Heathrow (named after a small hamlet); no one assumes they are going to the location of the old town. As Treblinka like the other AR camps were border camps of course they are a final destination; there are customs to deal with. Not even the SS could bypass the revenue gatherers. They were going into a different district which was controlled in a different manner than the GG. To sort the paper work etc for border crossings would be timely; people also needed to be in different attire so a nearby camp would be needed. In the case of the AR camps, all near borders I suggest the border exit point is named after the nearest facility or town. There was an existing camp there which did have something to do with the border. Why murder people at the border? This could have been done anywhere; if they wanted to fool them let them cross the Bug to give a false sense of security. Instead of doing that these border camps a few km from the border were alleged to have done "the deed". I do hope you realize how absurd this seems. Helen Schwartz was never at Treblinka, only at Auschwitz and Belsen. In her biography she never mentions Treblinka at all, it is only you who have said this. This is nonsense and I think you well know. Aktion 14f13, also called invalid or prisoner euthanasia, the campaign culled the sick, elderly and those deemed no longer fit for work; this involved about 20 thousand people at the most. Not many would deny this Aktion was a fact; this is evidenced by the Sobibor Dutch survivors and highly unethical. What has happened is the conceptual slippery slope to mass exterminations. From this absurdity claims were made as though they were fact, with little or no evidence to support them. Euthanizing those not fit to work is hardly a holocaust nor is it genocide as the aim was not to get rid of a group; it was applied equally to all groups across the spectrum. It is only the Jews who seem to think they were the ones worthy of such horrors. Pierre Berg at Auschwitz (non Jew) got sick and thought he was going to be euthanized; this was the rumors going around. He did meet Dr Mengele who got extra nutritious rations for him; the same happened to Schlomo Pivnik a jew. Both men got better.
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Nov 11, 2021 10:49:23 GMT
It seems you go with whatever, fits your preconceptions No, I follow the evidence... [snip]To encourage the preservation of only genuine discussion of history at the new RODOF forum, I request that this post โ and this my reply to it โ be removed. This is a repeated false statement that has been previously refuted and that refutation has been dodged and ignored. This person does not follow the empirically provable evidence at all. He instead ONLY relies upon discredited and non-credible lie-witness testimony from vengeful โsurvivorsโ plus upon physcally impossible and self-contradictory coerced โconfessionsโ.
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,750
|
Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2021 13:27:44 GMT
No, I follow the evidence... [snip]To encourage the preservation of only genuine discussion of history at the new RODOF forum, I request that this post โ and this my reply to it โ be removed. This is a repeated false statement that has been previously refuted and that refutation has been dodged and ignored. This person does not follow the empirically provable evidence at all. He instead ONLY relies upon discredited and non-credible lie-witness testimony from vengeful โsurvivorsโ plus upon physcally impossible and self-contradictory coerced โconfessionsโ. Examples of documentary evidence of mass transports to the AR camps;
- Hofle telegram - Ganzenmuller Letter - Ghetto records of transports - Stroop Report - Korherr Report - Warsaw shuttle train record
Examples of circumstantial evidence of mass transports to the AR camps;
- Frank report on the disposition of Jewish property - Globocnik report to Himmler on AR
Been-there is being dishonest when he claims that I "ONLY" rely on witnesses. There are NO documents recording regular mass transports back out of the AR camps or their arrival anywhere else. That issue is being dodged, because it drives a huge hole through revisionist claims the AR camps were not death camps.
|
|
Turnagain
โ๏ธ
๐๐ผ๐ป๐ผ๐ฟ๐ฎ๐๐๐
Posts: 2,302
|
Post by Turnagain on Nov 11, 2021 14:38:42 GMT
Of course there are records of Jews leaving T-II by the trainload but Nessie just dismisses those deportees as "being chosen for work". So, we're back to Nessie wailing, "Where did they gooooooo?".
|
|
|
Post by Sandhurst on Nov 11, 2021 17:42:34 GMT
We are obviously back to you wailing that you are being asked to evidence your claim TII was a transit camp and you have no evidence.
You say you have all this evidence, but that is only in your mind; it fails to convince others. Fraudulent eye witness testimony is not evidence but an attempted distortion of the truth. It is clear that only some of the transports arrived at AR camps, most by passing them. This is the same as those returning from Bialystok mentioned by Zabecki. We are trying to discern the truth, while Nessie is just peddling the mantra again.
|
|