Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 19:59:37 GMT
I have never said they are buried there, you just made that up. Ok, where are these dead jews of Auschwitz? I am not here to do your research. You lied and made a false claim. This thread is about how many Jews were liberated at each camp at the end of the war, not how many died at each camp.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 11, 2022 20:11:23 GMT
Ok, where are these dead jews of Auschwitz? I am not here to do your research. You lied and made a false claim. This thread is about how many Jews were liberated at each camp at the end of the war, not how many died at each camp. Official historiography asserts that the AB dead are somewhere in AB, so assuming you think so to was fair and reasonable. We can agree on that.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2022 20:15:53 GMT
I am not here to do your research. You lied and made a false claim. This thread is about how many Jews were liberated at each camp at the end of the war, not how many died at each camp. Official historiography asserts that the AB dead are somewhere in AB, so assuming you think so to was fair and reasonable. We can agree on that. Wrong. You need to read up on the evidence as to what happened, but you can do that in another thread. This thread about how many were alive on liberation.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 11, 2022 20:20:56 GMT
Official historiography asserts that the AB dead are somewhere in AB, so assuming you think so to was fair and reasonable. We can agree on that. Wrong. You need to read up on the evidence as to what happened, but you can do that in another thread. This thread about how many were alive on liberation. No youre wrong and you literally just accused me of lying. And I dont need to do anything you say.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 27, 2024 9:16:53 GMT
"79 years ago today over 7,000 prisoners of the German Nazi camp #Auschwitz, including some 700 children, were liberated by the soldiers of the Soviet Army."
That was the single largest liberation of a camp by the Soviets. A-B had held up to 130,000 prisoners. The absence of millions of Jews being liberated and as displaced persons and returning home means that revisionist claims millions were not gassed are contradicted further by the evidence.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Feb 8, 2024 17:56:35 GMT
"79 years ago today over 7,000 prisoners of the German Nazi camp #Auschwitz, including some 700 children, were liberated by the soldiers of the Soviet Army." That was the single largest liberation of a camp by the Soviets. A-B had held up to 130,000 prisoners. The absence of millions of Jews being liberated and as displaced persons and returning home means that revisionist claims millions were not gassed are contradicted further by the evidence. Which of these Jews were gassed? Why would every jew stay when they could leave with the SS?
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Post by Callahan on Feb 8, 2024 19:57:49 GMT
Wrong. 700,000 registered prisoners were in camps [per your statistic]. We already know that many Jews were unregistered, particularly those being evacuated (to the East). These are numbers that the Germans did want to, essentially, "make disappear", as they did not want them reintegrated with Germany and its territories postwar, and keeping them secret also helped conceal their property confiscation/reallocation effort. Sorry, but the records you are referencing do not appear to help your case, here.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 9, 2024 15:20:32 GMT
"79 years ago today over 7,000 prisoners of the German Nazi camp #Auschwitz, including some 700 children, were liberated by the soldiers of the Soviet Army." That was the single largest liberation of a camp by the Soviets. A-B had held up to 130,000 prisoners. The absence of millions of Jews being liberated and as displaced persons and returning home means that revisionist claims millions were not gassed are contradicted further by the evidence. Which of these Jews were gassed? None of them. The SS took as many as they could cope with, leaving those who could not work.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 9, 2024 15:27:19 GMT
Wrong. 700,000 registered prisoners were in camps [per your statistic]. We already know that many Jews were unregistered, particularly those being evacuated (to the East). These are numbers that the Germans did want to, essentially, "make disappear", as they did not want them reintegrated with Germany and its territories postwar, and keeping them secret also helped conceal their property confiscation/reallocation effort. Sorry, but the records you are referencing do not appear to help your case, here. Registration took place in the home villages, towns and cities, as Jews were identified and then registered. Registration meant they would lose jobs, property and be sent to camps and ghettos. The ghettos were then gradually emptied to camps, with no ghetto left by mid 1944. If they were not being gassed, that means millions in camps by the end of 1944, into 1945 and liberated at the end of the war. There is no reason for the Nazis to keep the existence of Jews they were being accused of killing, secret. They had kept extensive records of who was Jewish and the transports and people at the camps and those records show a huge drop in the numbers of Jews under Nazi control, from millions to a few hundred thousand in 1945. That does not help your case.
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Post by Callahan on Feb 9, 2024 20:01:54 GMT
Wrong. 700,000 registered prisoners were in camps [per your statistic]. We already know that many Jews were unregistered, particularly those being evacuated (to the East). These are numbers that the Germans did want to, essentially, "make disappear", as they did not want them reintegrated with Germany and its territories postwar, and keeping them secret also helped conceal their property confiscation/reallocation effort. Sorry, but the records you are referencing do not appear to help your case, here. Registration took place in the home villages, towns and cities, as Jews were identified and then registered. Registration meant they would lose jobs, property and be sent to camps and ghettos. The ghettos were then gradually emptied to camps, with no ghetto left by mid 1944. If they were not being gassed, that means millions in camps by the end of 1944, into 1945 and liberated at the end of the war. There is no reason for the Nazis to keep the existence of Jews they were being accused of killing, secret. They had kept extensive records of who was Jewish and the transports and people at the camps and those records show a huge drop in the numbers of Jews under Nazi control, from millions to a few hundred thousand in 1945. That does not help your case. There seems to be a misunderstanding, here. The "registration" we are talking about refers to those prisoners who were registered as prisoners by the end of the war. You seem to have gone back in time several years to when Jews were first being registered as Jews. I hope that clears things up. Jews who were unregistered as prisoners (e.g. at Birkenau) were to begin the long journey eastward, sifting through numerous camps and labor sites along the way, depending on the needs in any given area at a time, with the overall trend of pushing the broader collective of Jews under German control further and further East by the end of the war. These Jews were kept secret because of the controversy (and arguable immorality) of such a policy, which would necessarily be quite brutal. Dispossession, long journeys maximizing hard labor of a disease-ridden population... including women and children. There is no question this was a brutal policy which international onlookers and propagandists would have a field day with. The justification for secrecy is obvious. Your claim is that any sign of secrecy is evidence of "secret genocide"; an unsupported viewpoint. Mine is that the Germans meant evacuation literally and that this included an elimination of record-keeping (total erasure) of Jews once they had been deemed fully separated from German territories by passing through Eastbound dispossession and resettlement routes.
Germany recognized they were losing the war. Their policy decisions reflected this -- they had no need nor intention to keep long-term records of Jewish evacuation routes and destinations, especially given the frail condition of most of these Jews as they were resettled (rendering them a trivial threat with regard to partisan warfare). Those who were not [yet] frail would be employed at labor camps studded along the evacuation routes. Any records which tied certain Jews to German territories would become problematic as the victors' might seek to eventually reunite these Jews with their prior residences. Maximal separation both physically and on paper was the official, explicit "final solution" policy, and all of the most reliable evidence seems to support this is what actually occurred.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 10, 2024 8:48:21 GMT
Registration took place in the home villages, towns and cities, as Jews were identified and then registered. Registration meant they would lose jobs, property and be sent to camps and ghettos. The ghettos were then gradually emptied to camps, with no ghetto left by mid 1944. If they were not being gassed, that means millions in camps by the end of 1944, into 1945 and liberated at the end of the war. There is no reason for the Nazis to keep the existence of Jews they were being accused of killing, secret. They had kept extensive records of who was Jewish and the transports and people at the camps and those records show a huge drop in the numbers of Jews under Nazi control, from millions to a few hundred thousand in 1945. That does not help your case. There seems to be a misunderstanding, here. The "registration" we are talking about refers to those prisoners who were registered as prisoners by the end of the war. You seem to have gone back in time several years to when Jews were first being registered as Jews. I hope that clears things up. As soon as a Jew was rounded up and put on a transport to a camp, they were registered as a prisoner, being taken to a specific camp. They had now lost all control over their lives and were in the custody and control of the Nazis. All of the Jews who arrived at Birkenau were already registered. Some were selected to work at Birkenau, where they were then also registered as being a camp inmate, photographed, tattooed and details taken. When Jews then move camp, they then get in deregistered from the camp they were in and re-registered at the camp they were sent to. The Nazis kept track of the Jews in their custody, as they were an enemy. There is no evidence of mass transports of Jews supposedly sifted through the AR camps and A-B at other camps in the east. Instead, the majority of the registered Jews on the transports disappear from the records. There is no evidence of a policy to repopulate the eastern territories, that the EG had been clearing of Jews, with other Jews from Poland and Western Europe. No documents, no witnesses, no huge camps with ever-increasing populations, in 1942-4. The Nazis did not need to keep a policy of relocation secret. Indeed, they claimed relocation was what was happening. They did need to keep a policy of mass murder secret. You have zero evidence of the mass resettlement of millions of Jews in any eastern territory, from Estonia to Ukraine, between 1942 and 1944. Instead, there is evidence that from 1941 the EG were clearing those places of Jews, as the German army marched east. They had a clear need to keep records, because from the earliest Polish reports in 1942, they were being accused of mass murder. There is a clear need to keep exculpatory evidence. What reliable evidence?
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blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Feb 10, 2024 9:47:05 GMT
Which of these Jews were gassed? None of them. The SS took as many as they could cope with, leaving those who could not work. I think the bottom left picture would be interpreted as the clothing of Jews that were gassed - probably some weeks earlier (or maybe longer).
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Post by Callahan on Feb 11, 2024 10:59:45 GMT
All of the Jews who arrived at Birkenau were already registered. Some were selected to work at Birkenau, where they were then also registered as being a camp inmate, photographed, tattooed and details taken. When Jews then move camp, they then get in deregistered from the camp they were in and re-registered at the camp they were sent to. The Nazis kept track of the Jews in their custody, as they were an enemy. Some persisting confusion, it seems. The 700,000 figure you quoted earlier refers to registered prisoners, and "prisoners" is often used interchangeably with "inmates". You seem to be suggesting there were more camp "prisoners" than camp "inmates", and that the 700,000 figure necessarily refers to the former. Your cited Wiki article states plainly: Those never considered prisoners includes most alleged 'Einsatzgruppen' victims (and similar), of course. In any case, Jews being evacuated were not considered in the same category of other Jews or "prisoners", as made clear by their designation for "special treatment". Their treatment insofar as any record as a "prisoner" (or lack thereof) reflects this. There is no evidence of mass transports of Jews supposedly sifted through the AR camps and A-B at other camps in the east. Instead, the majority of the registered Jews on the transports disappear from the records. Yes, there is. There is evacuation policy of physically uprooting Jews and dispossessing them entirely, sending them extreme distances for labor and maximal isolation from German life. This was the official policy as of early 1942. There is no evidence of a policy to repopulate the eastern territories, that the EG had been clearing of Jews, with other Jews from Poland and Western Europe. No documents, no witnesses, no huge camps with ever-increasing populations, in 1942-4. The EG was not simply 'exterminating' every Jew but, rather, those areas and corresponding populations which were perceived for their partisan affiliations. This risk of partisan activity was not deemed significant for Jews incoming from territories further West, who would be disproportionately frail, elderly, very young, etc. Some number of these Jews would be assigned to whatever labor assignments they could reasonably fulfill (some of these individuals perishing in "death marches" necessary to maintain German labor resources upon retreat), others dispersed through some multiple dozens or hundreds of collection sites (temporary or permanent), some of which likely being repurposed from earlier ghettos. Bare-minimal rations arrive along with the newest evacuees until the final months of the war and Soviet "liberation". The Nazis did not need to keep a policy of relocation secret. Indeed, they claimed relocation was what was happening. They did need to keep a policy of mass murder secret. Their relocation policy became much more brutal than was ever let on publicly, of course, even though this shift was mainly due to the dire circumstances and limited resources caused by the war. The dispossession effort (Aktion Reinhard) highlighted the need for secrecy, due to this being a violation of international law. And the mere fact of loading non-combatives, women, and children into railcars for days or weeks on end in all weather conditions (during an epidemic and while often starving, with limited chances of survival thereafter within the Eastern territories) was more than awful enough to necessitate secrecy. This was arguably one of the worst things Germany had ever done, particularly for those lacking an understanding of how Jews had violated Germany. They had a clear need to keep records, because from the earliest Polish reports in 1942, they were being accused of mass murder. There is a clear need to keep exculpatory evidence. They had not fathomed the degree of significance these false atrocity claims would come to have within the public eye. These atrocity lies did not reach their peak efficacy and implementation until well-after the war was over. Germany's focus was not upon explaining away the false horror stories claimed about them, but to dissociate themselves from as many Jews as possible by sending them far to the East. Their experience by the onset of the war was that international Jewry would deploy its own into host nations (e.g. Germany) to subvert and overrun the nation from within. In a sense, the physical proximity of these Jews to within the nation corresponded to the nation's demise. Their removal to the East was expected to minimize this risk. Explicit and official German evacuation policy as described (and thousands of related documents and official statements), lack of excavated remains at AR sites, demonstrable lies throughout development of "Holocaust" claims and especially in their earliest iterations, fact of post-war power dynamics favoring Allied narratives despite known mendacity, proof of Soviet "show trial" approach implementation in many of the post-war trials (East Germany), substantial Soviet involvement at Nuremberg, no 'gassing' in British decodes, etc., etc.
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Post by Callahan on Feb 11, 2024 12:05:31 GMT
There is no evidence of mass transports of Jews supposedly sifted through the AR camps and A-B at other camps in the east. Instead, the majority of the registered Jews on the transports disappear from the records. There is something else I should have added regarding the above. The concept of "sifting through" was not applied specifically to the AR camps (or A-B). This phrase is used in the Korherr report to refer to "camps in the General Government", which more accurately describes the many other labor camps (as first presented on this forum by Nazgul) prior to reaching the border of the General Government (the AR camps' location). Thus, the Korherr report apparently does not tell us how many Jews necessarily reached any AR camp, only how many were sent toward them [onto designated routes, each of which had one of these camps as the final stop in the GG, along the route and gateway further East]. This is further supported by (or at least, compatible with) the Hoefle telegram which describes the number of Jews who had accessed a given labor route by a certain date ("Zugang bis..."). It is a common misconception (even among Revisionists) to infer these documents necessarily suggest a given number of Jews arrived at Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor by a given time. These camps were important designations along these routes (and of key importance given their function for rail gauge conversions, change in administrative jurisdiction, property confiscation and sorting/disposal, possible medical treatment and limited euthanasia, limited corpse disposal, etc.) but they were not the focus of these outbound expeditions, which were focused on maximizing labor resources and consolidating the dispossession effort, while steadily moving Jews eastward.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Feb 11, 2024 16:25:23 GMT
All of the Jews who arrived at Birkenau were already registered. Some were selected to work at Birkenau, where they were then also registered as being a camp inmate, photographed, tattooed and details taken. When Jews then move camp, they then get in deregistered from the camp they were in and re-registered at the camp they were sent to. The Nazis kept track of the Jews in their custody, as they were an enemy. Some persisting confusion, it seems. The 700,000 figure you quoted earlier refers to registered prisoners, and "prisoners" is often used interchangeably with "inmates". You seem to be suggesting there were more camp "prisoners" than camp "inmates", and that the 700,000 figure necessarily refers to the former. You cannot evidence millions of Jews in camp in 1944 and being liberated in 1945. It is correct that most Jews did not end up as prisoners in concentration camps, because they were killed in death camps or mass shootings. That explains why you cannot evidence millions of Jews in camps in 1944 and being liberated in 1945. Documents from A-B referring to special treatment, are about the Kremas and make no reference to relocation to other places. You claim it is odd that code words were used to disguise mass murder, but think it fine they were used to hide mass resettlement. That makes no sense. What was the policy for Jews already living in the east, in Ukraine and the Baltic State in 1941-early 1942? Where is your evidence of an increasing Jewish population in those places in 1942? What was the policy for Jews in 1944? There are so many gaps in your claims. The EG reported shooting partisans, Communists and Jews, as separate groups. They also reported areas as being Jew free, which contradicts your claim they were being filled with Jews from the west. The transports of western Jews were not just the frail etc, they were of all Jews. There is no evidence of camps in the east between 1942 and 1944, filling up with Dutch, French, Italian, Greek, German and Belgian Jews, let alone Polish, Hungarian and Romanians. The Nazis knew they were being accused of mass murders from 1942. Mass force migration is better than mass murder, so there is no reason for the Nazis to keep that a secret, when the accusation is even worse. You are just making claims up. There is no evidence of the Nazis deciding not to challenge the mass murder claims, whilst hiding the evidence they were not mass murdering Jews, and instead they were relocating them. As the war progressed and likelihood of loss increased, it would become even more in the Nazi's interest to challenge the mass murder claims. You cannot produce a single document that records a mass transport from an AR camp, to a location in the east, or the development of a system of camps that could contain millions of Jews in 1944. You suggest words not associated with evacuation, were code words for evacuation, when that is not an operation that needs hiding, unlike mass murders. You cannot name any operation to resettle Jews in the east in 1942-4, let alone identify the Nazis responsible, or documents recording the huge undertaking of camp construction and mass transportation required. All the excavations at the AR camps identified large areas of disturbed ground containing human and cremated remains. It is a revisionist delusion that did not happen. Your idea of demonstrating lies is arguing your personal disbelief and reliance on arguing from personal incredulity. You cannot even explain how you assess credibility, let alone truthfulness. You ignore it was the Polish Government in London, who first reported death camps. You cannot attack them, as you can the Soviets, over their reliability and motives. You ignore that German historians and courts have assessed the evidence and found that there were Nazis guilty of mass murder. You cannot evidence what did happen.
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