Nessie
🦕
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
Posts: 4,895
|
Post by Nessie on Oct 31, 2022 9:29:15 GMT
"In the months following the massacre, German authorities stationed at Kiev killed thousands more Jews at Babi Yar, as well as non-Jews including Roma (Gypsies), Communists, and Soviet prisoners of war. It is estimated that some 100,000 people were murdered at Babi Yar." Most of "the others" were not Jews. So where did these 26229 stay prior to the rest of the expulsions by execution.
The evidence is that the Nazis occupied Kiev starting the 19th Sept 1941 and before the executions started, the Jews of Kiev were still living in their homes. An order was then put out on the 28th Sept for all Jews to report to Babi Yar;
Those who complied were the 33,771 Jews who were shot by the EG on the 29th and 30th Sept. The Jews who did not comply with the order were then rounded up over the following months and shot
"The ravine at Babyn Yar was a killing site for two years after the September 1941 massacre."
|
|
nazgul
🕵️
𝕰𝖗𝖒𝖎𝖙𝖙𝖑𝖚𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖓 𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 (Reichshaupamptgeheimepolizei)
Posts: 1,220
|
Post by nazgul on Oct 31, 2022 10:12:43 GMT
The Jews who did not comply with the order were then rounded up over the following months and shot Until they were shot where did they stay? Strangely when the camp came online the following year it was full of Jews. That sort of counteracts your statements.
|
|
Nessie
🦕
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
Posts: 4,895
|
Post by Nessie on Oct 31, 2022 10:24:34 GMT
The Jews who did not comply with the order were then rounded up over the following months and shot Until they were shot where did they stay? Strangely when the camp came online the following year it was full of Jews. That sort of counteracts your statements. The Nazis entered Kiev on the 19th Sept and at that time, the remaining Jews were still living in their homes. They remained in their homes until the 28th Sept when the order was put out for them to gather at Babi Yar. Those who did not comply remained in their homes, or went into hiding in Kiev and over the next year or so, they were tracked down and taken to Babi Yar and shot.
A similar situation happened in the Netherlands. Many Jews fled, and of those who remained, initially they were registered and remained in their homes, until they were many were rounded up and taken to, or ordered to report to Westerbork. Thereafter, they were taken to Sobibor, where they were killed. Other Jews remained, in hiding and over a period of many months, they were tracked down and taken to Auschwitz.
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Oct 31, 2022 17:04:15 GMT
WHERE DID WINSTON CHURCHILL GO?
Philomena Cunk deconstructs Churchill’s legacy and with the help of Dr. Peter Catterall (historian at the University of Westminster) starts the legend that no-one knows where Churchill went either. 🙂
|
|
Nessie
🦕
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
Posts: 4,895
|
Post by Nessie on Oct 31, 2022 18:39:48 GMT
Not being able to evidence what did happen at Babi Yar, or the AR camps and to show what happened to the Jews allegedly not killed, is the elephant in the room for revisionism. Any rational person will understand that.
|
|
nazgul
🕵️
𝕰𝖗𝖒𝖎𝖙𝖙𝖑𝖚𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖓 𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 (Reichshaupamptgeheimepolizei)
Posts: 1,220
|
Post by nazgul on Oct 31, 2022 18:57:36 GMT
The Nazis entered Kiev on the 19th Sept and at that time, the remaining Jews were still living in their homes. They remained in their homes until the 28th Sept when the order was put out for them to gather at Babi Yar. Those who did not comply remained in their homes, or went into hiding in Kiev and over the next year or so, they were tracked down and taken to Babi Yar and shot. But all the Jews were not shot just over half of them. It begs the question of what happened to the other half. There was a judenlager attached to the Konzentrationslager which defies the pathetic explanation that all were shot. There is no evidence of this just assumptions based on assumptions.
|
|
Nessie
🦕
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
Posts: 4,895
|
Post by Nessie on Oct 31, 2022 20:20:56 GMT
The Nazis entered Kiev on the 19th Sept and at that time, the remaining Jews were still living in their homes. They remained in their homes until the 28th Sept when the order was put out for them to gather at Babi Yar. Those who did not comply remained in their homes, or went into hiding in Kiev and over the next year or so, they were tracked down and taken to Babi Yar and shot. But all the Jews were not shot just over half of them. It begs the question of what happened to the other half. I have just explained to you what happened. The 34,000 who complied and gathered at Babi Yar were shot and then the "other half" were tracked down over the following moths and taken to Babi Yar and shot. That some Jews were selected to work, rather than killed, is part of the whole Holocaust narrative.
|
|
nazgul
🕵️
𝕰𝖗𝖒𝖎𝖙𝖙𝖑𝖚𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖓 𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 (Reichshaupamptgeheimepolizei)
Posts: 1,220
|
Post by nazgul on Oct 31, 2022 20:46:18 GMT
the "other half" were tracked down over the following moths and taken to Babi Yar and shot. That some Jews were selected to work, rather than killed, is part of the whole Holocaust narrative. You are just quoting the narrative from Yad Vashem or whatever; this is not needed. If 100 thousand Jews managed to flee the Russians then those that remained were likely to be red Army or NKVD to cause mayhem. This happened with fires and bombs going off killing German soldiers. If so the Germans were justified in shooting them. I am sure you are aware of the "Socks of Stalin" given to soldiers of the Wehrmacht in other places. I doubt that many remained. How was the order to assemble at Babi yar be given, posters put around town? This is NKVD propaganda.
|
|
Nessie
🦕
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
Posts: 4,895
|
Post by Nessie on Nov 1, 2022 9:29:42 GMT
the "other half" were tracked down over the following moths and taken to Babi Yar and shot. That some Jews were selected to work, rather than killed, is part of the whole Holocaust narrative. You are just quoting the narrative from Yad Vashem or whatever; this is not needed. If 100 thousand Jews managed to flee the Russians then those that remained were likely to be red Army or NKVD to cause mayhem. This happened with fires and bombs going off killing German soldiers. If so the Germans were justified in shooting them. I am sure you are aware of the "Socks of Stalin" given to soldiers of the Wehrmacht in other places. I doubt that many remained. The links I have given you explain that many of those who did not flee were elderly or otherwise unfit and could not get out. We are discussing what the Nazis did, not the NKVD. You are trying to dodge that you cannot bring any evidence to show what did happen to the Jews in Kiev after the Nazis had occupied the city. The events that are evidenced, are the mass shootings of Jews. You have the same problem with many ghettos and camps. Proof of life of the majority of the Jews ends in those places and you cannot evidence the Jews survived.
|
|
nazgul
🕵️
𝕰𝖗𝖒𝖎𝖙𝖙𝖑𝖚𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖓 𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 (Reichshaupamptgeheimepolizei)
Posts: 1,220
|
Post by nazgul on Nov 1, 2022 9:32:03 GMT
The events that are evidenced, are the mass shootings of Jews. Shooting of partisans, perhaps jewish partisans but terrorists.
|
|
Nessie
🦕
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
Posts: 4,895
|
Post by Nessie on Nov 1, 2022 10:36:35 GMT
The events that are evidenced, are the mass shootings of Jews. Shooting of partisans, perhaps jewish partisans but terrorists. The Nazis saw the Jews as an enemy, partisans, terrorists. That is why so many were killed and why the Holocaust by bullets took place in eastern Nazi occupied Europe.
|
|
Nessie
🦕
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
Posts: 4,895
|
Post by Nessie on Nov 1, 2022 14:14:54 GMT
..
“But, but, but… if they weren’t ‘holocausted’ where did they go?" . .. . .. . .. . .. A very frequent objection to revisionist arguments is that revisionists cannot describe in detail what happened to the Jews who were transported to the "extermination camps" but who were (according to revisionists) not killed. It is the elephant in the room for revisionism. Not being able to evidence what did happen to those not gassed or killed in mass shootings undermines revisionist claims they were not gassed or shot. The question "where did they go?" starts at the death camps and revisionists cannot evidence something other than mass gassings took place inside those places and that there were regular mass transportations back out of the camps. Occasional transports of people to other camps in Poland is evidence of the selection process, whereby the Nazis did not kill when they needed workers. The claim of a mass cover up of what happened, is an incredible claim that needs an incredible level of evidence. The idea that the Nazis accepted punishment for something they did not do, and that it was possible to hide all the evidence of millions of Jews not being killed, is something that needs revisionists to prove. If they had not been killed, then by the end of the war, there would have been millions of Jews being liberated. Instead the Soviets found largely empty camps and ghettos and the largest single liberation was Bergen_Belsen, which had c60,000 prisoners, not all of whom were Jewish. If the Nazis had not been gassing and mass shooting, then instead of closing all the ghettos by the autumn of 1944, they would have been opening more and more and had millions of Jews in captivity. If that had happened, it would have left a lot of evidence, impossible to hide. True, they had an interest in hiding their theft. They also had an interest in denying they had been mass murdering Jews. Plenty of Nazis accused of such murders were safe in South America for decades after the war. Why did they come forward and put the record straight? When Nazis were tried in Germany for the mass murders, why did they not present the evidence as to what did happen? It is normal when someone is accused of a crime and they have evidence it was not them, to disclose that evidence. That is not true, they were mass murdered at named sites, primarily in eastern Europe. There has been disagreement as to how many were killed, not that they were killed and what happened. That does not mean historians do not know where they went. There is ample evidence of large areas of disturbed ground at the AR camps containing cremated remains. Where are claims being made by historians that almost all the Jews were killed? Any source that claims that the Nazis killed almost all the Jews is wrong. The Jewish population in Europe was estimated at 10.37 million in 1937 by Korherr. Other estimates have it at 9.5 million (Pew Research Centre). Historians are in broad agreement that 5-6 million died. Korherr reported that the Jewish population had dropped by 4 million by the start of 1943. Pew estimate it dropped by 5.7 million by 1945. That leaves 3.8 million at least survived. Compensation claims can be made multiple times by one person, which is why the figures do not tally.
|
|
nazgul
🕵️
𝕰𝖗𝖒𝖎𝖙𝖙𝖑𝖚𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖓 𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 (Reichshaupamptgeheimepolizei)
Posts: 1,220
|
Post by nazgul on Nov 1, 2022 18:51:35 GMT
The Jewish population in Europe was estimated at 10.37 million in 1937 by Korherr. Other estimates have it at 9.5 million (Pew Research Centre). Historians are in broad agreement that 5-6 million died. Korherr reported that the Jewish population had dropped by 4 million by the start of 1943. Pew estimate it dropped by 5.7 million by 1945. That leaves 3.8 million at least survived. Compensation claims can be made multiple times by one person, which is why the figures do not tally. The issue is how one defines a Jew; ethnicity, language or because they say so. There are many kinds of Jews, even Chinese ones so ethnicity is not really viable. The language also varies widely depending on location. Of course the population dropped, though clear research has shown the pre war numbers to have been likely fudged by the AJC with Untermeyer in charge. The numbers dropped due to emigration, population transfers and fleeing. Pew and other Historians are relying on the figures presented by Untermeyer's cronies; there is little independent corroboration of these figures, which are derived from the Jews themselves. One must also take into account the natural attrition with negligible birth-rate. Due to congenital diseases, lack of medicines the attrition rate of Jews would be higher than the normal population; about 2 million died of natural causes during the war period. Due to pogroms many wannabe Jews changed their religion and appearance to Catholic or whatever; they also had to disappear in the masses of emigrees. The compensation claims were single claims by individual Jews. All this has been discussed before over multiple threads and yet this poster continue with never ending monotony to keep vomiting his claims again and again.
|
|
Nessie
🦕
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿 (Nessies forum)
Posts: 4,895
|
Post by Nessie on Nov 1, 2022 19:40:57 GMT
That the Nazis chief statistician estimated the drop as 4 million by the start of 1943, is in itself damning evidence.
You have failed to evidence what happened to the Jews of Kiev, if they were not shot at Babi Yar and previously you have failed to evidence what happened to those you claim were not gassed at the AR camps and A-B.
Since you have no evidence to contribute to the debate, I suggest you drop out.
|
|
nazgul
🕵️
𝕰𝖗𝖒𝖎𝖙𝖙𝖑𝖚𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖓 𝖉𝖊𝖗 𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎 (Reichshaupamptgeheimepolizei)
Posts: 1,220
|
Post by nazgul on Nov 1, 2022 19:50:51 GMT
That the Nazis chief statistician estimated the drop as 4 million by the start of 1943, is in itself damning evidence. You have failed to evidence what happened to the Jews of Kiev, if they were not shot at Babi Yar and previously you have failed to evidence what happened to those you claim were not gassed at the AR camps and A-B. Since you have no evidence to contribute to the debate, I suggest you drop out. The chief statistician also said they "pass through the camps of the GG to the Russian East". He also had this to say on their numbers: This is basically suggesting using great caution with these figures which you fail to ignore. It is likely most of the Jews in Kiev left prior to the arrival. There are so many inconsistencies with the Babi Yar story as to suggest yes people were shot but probably not Jews with much lower numbers.
|
|