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Post by been_there on Sept 9, 2022 15:27:37 GMT
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“But, but, but… if they weren’t ‘holocausted’
where did they go?" . .. . .. . .. . .. A very frequent objection to revisionist arguments is that revisionists cannot describe in detail what happened to the Jews who were transported to the "extermination camps" but who were (according to revisionists) not killed. As noted in previous sections, there were numerous other camps in Poland and adjacent areas to which deportations occurred and possibly after first transiting through the "extermination camps" without being killed. Documentary evidence, such as transport records, contradicting the politically correct version are argued by revisionists to have been destroyed. Not just the Allies, but also the Germans may have destroyed such records, but with different motivations. For example, "Aktion Reinhard" was according to revisionists a plunder operation involving stealing Jewish property, which the involved Germans likely had an interest in concealing. A seldom mentioned aspect is that cultish H-true-believers cannot exactly answer the question of "where did they go?" either! This is demonstrated by, for example, H-true-believers stating very different numbers of deaths at different camps, as discussed in the section "Very widely differing claims on the number of deaths at different Holocaust camps". H-true-believers claim this to be due to causes such as the allegedly very incomplete camp death records and more generally due to many German documents having been destroyed by a German conspiracy in order to hide the Holocaust. See also the article on the Alleged German conspiracy to hide the Holocaust. Thus, both revisionists and the more intelligent, sane, honest H-true-believers state that documents are missing, that cover-ups occurred, and that demographic estimates are uncertain. That it is not possible to exactly document the movements of individuals does not mean that they must have died or that they must have been killed in gas chambers. Revisionists have also argued that H-true-believers cannot explain what happened to the corpses resulting from the supposed mass killings. The alleged burning of some of the corpses on pyres would still leave behind massive amounts of remains. See Holocaust material evidence: Corpses. Another argued problem for the H-true-believers is explaining where the very large numbers of “Holocaust survivors” came from, if the Jews under German control were almost all killed (see the section “Other methods”). A related argued problem is the origin of the very large number of Jews in camps for displaced persons in Europe, including in Germany, during the postwar period.[28] In 2000, Jewish organizations demanding compensation stated that there were still around 1 million living Holocaust survivors. A demographic estimate based on this is that in 1945 there were between 3.5 and 5 million Holocaust survivors.[34] In 1987, the German Federal Ministry of Finance had received compensation claims from around 4.4 million Holocaust survivors.[35] ____________________ en.metapedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_demographics |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 10, 2022 0:35:54 GMT
In 2000, Jewish organizations demanding compensation stated that there were still around 1 million living Holocaust survivors. A demographic estimate based on this is that in 1945 there were between 3.5 and 5 million Holocaust survivors.[34]
In 1987, the German Federal Ministry of Finance had received compensation claims from around 4.4 million Holocaust survivors.
You may remember that Ulios made the comment with calculations of natural mortality; people died of natural causes and disease including suicide. Ulios report. He calculated 1.9 million deaths by attrition and not murder; the birth rate amongst the Jewish population was negligible. Typhus and disease was rampant and took many lives; this is not disputed. The use of fumigants such as "Zyklon B" and chlorine compounds was to alleviate the distress caused by such diseases. While the common understanding of "genocide" is mass murder it also includes "Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group"; this is what the Reich did by segregating the sexes at the ramps before incarceration in a konzentrationslager; this is not in dispute. Genocide also includes, "Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group"; it is clear that some children were segregated; that said the Jewish boy Peter Lantos remained with his parents in all camps. Another definition is "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", The believers use this when they are tired of claiming all the Jews were done away with in gas chambers. I think that the Germans were stretched for resources in some areas especially the "Kaiserwald" where workers had to live in cardboard huts in the frozen camp of Latvia. The conditions were atrocious for everyone. Everyone faced starvation. Pierre Berg makes it clear that the food in Birkenau was good except that most of it was stolen by the Kapos for use on the black market. Peters father died of starvation due to his bartering his nutrition for smokes. The believers try and assert that it was the Germans that starved him. The 20 thousand killed by euthanasia is insignificant, though this is the basis of the mass murder claim. What must also be taken into account is the Russian mass deportations of Polish and Balkan state citizens including Jews inland prior to Barbarossa; this is in the millions. It is clear from the Lantos report that the Russians kept Jews prisoners after the war; the Lantos family had to escape. It appears that the jews sent to the Russian East supported the army and retreated with the Soviet advance. To ask where they went during a rout is somewhat asinine Even the so called "death marches" were voluntary, many staying behind to be "liberated" by the red army; that is held as prisoner and put to work for the Soviets. This was reported as just a change of guards. |
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Post by been_there on Sept 10, 2022 5:50:50 GMT
In 2000, Jewish organizations demanding compensation stated that there were still around 1 million living Holocaust survivors. A demographic estimate based on this is that in 1945 there were between 3.5 and 5 million Holocaust survivors.[34]
In 1987, the German Federal Ministry of Finance had received compensation claims from around 4.4 million Holocaust survivors.
You may remember that Ulios made the comment with calculations of natural mortality; people died of natural causes and disease including suicide. Ulios report. He calculated 1.9 million deaths by attrition and not murder; the birth rate amongst the Jewish population was negligible. Typhus and disease was rampant and took many lives; this is not disputed. The use of fumigants such as "Zyklon B" and chlorine compounds was to alleviate the distress caused by such diseases. While the common understanding of "genocide" is mass murder it also includes "Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group"; this is what the Reich did by segregating the sexes at the ramps before incarceration in a konzentrationslager; this is not in dispute. Genocide also includes, "Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group"; it is clear that some children were segregated; that said the Jewish boy Peter Lantos remained with his parents in all camps. Another definition is "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", The believers use this when they are tired of claiming all the Jews were done away with in gas chambers. I think that the Germans were stretched for resources in some areas especially the "Kaiserwald" where workers had to live in cardboard huts in the frozen camp of Latvia. The conditions were atrocious for everyone. Everyone faced starvation. Pierre Berg makes it clear that the food in Birkenau was good except that most of it was stolen by the Kapos for use on the black market. Peters father died of starvation due to his bartering his nutrition for smokes. The believers try and assert that it was the Germans that starved him. The 20 thousand killed by euthanasia is insignificant, though this is the basis of the mass murder claim. What must also be taken into account is the Russian mass deportations of Polish and Balkan state citizens including Jews inland prior to Barbarossa; this is in the millions. It is clear from the Lantos report that the Russians kept Jews prisoners after the war; the Lantos family had to escape. It appears that the jews sent to the Russian East supported the army and retreated with the Soviet advance. To ask where they went during a rout is somewhat asinine Even the so called "death marches" were voluntary, many staying behind to be "liberated" by the red army; that is held as prisoner and put to work for the Soviets. This was reported as just a change of guards. Great reply! 👏 |
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Post by been_there on Sept 11, 2022 8:26:00 GMT
Another argued problem for the H-true-believers is explaining where the very large numbers of “Holocaust survivors” came from, if the Jews under German control were almost all killed (see the section “Other methods”). A related argued problem is the origin of the very large number of Jews in camps for displaced persons in Europe, including in Germany, during the postwar period.[28] In 2000, Jewish organizations demanding compensation stated that there were still around 1 million living Holocaust survivors. A demographic estimate based on this is that in 1945 there were between 3.5 and 5 million Holocaust survivors.[34] In 1987, the German Federal Ministry of Finance had received compensation claims from around 4.4 million Holocaust survivors.[35] ____________________ en.metapedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_demographicsPlaying ‘devil’s advocate’ for a moment: if in 1945 “there were... 5 million Holocaust survivors” and the total number of Jews in Europe in the Wannsee protocol was calculated to be 11 million, then simple arithmetic concludes approximately 6 million perished during WW2. 🤔 Or...? |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 15, 2022 21:19:37 GMT
if in 1945 “there were... 5 million Holocaust survivors” and the total number of Jews in Europe in the Wannsee protocol was calculated to be 11 million, then simple arithmetic concludes approximately 6 million perished during WW2. 🤔 Or...? One must also calculate the natural demise of a population over those years with no birth rate; Ulios calculated this at 2 million (or close) which naturally lowers the figure of 6 million to 4 million. Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn claimed that two million Jews were taken from Poland and elsewhere and deported inland by the NKVD or whatever secret police they had at that time. Millions did die in those horrid conditions at Soviet hands. There are also the Jewish massacres by the Soviets which were of a political rather than anti Semitic nature. About 20 thousand Jews perished at Vinnytsia and Kurapaty near Minsk; over 300 thousand people perished. There are many other political massacres which affected many Jews. Belarus is Eastern Europe as is Poland. There were atrocities against Jew by the Ukraine. |
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Post by Turnagain on Oct 3, 2022 9:10:44 GMT
Nessie wrote:
LOL! Nessie can't name one, single, solitary witness who gives a believable account of the holyhoax that doesn't include ridiculous impossibilities. Not one and he's been asked for such a witness on numerous occasions. Nessie excuses all such lies as mere "exaggerations" or "emotive language" and then goes on to claim that since the alleged witnesses corroborate each other then what they claim must be true. Witnesses with contrary and believable accounts are simply ignored. Of course Nessie claims to examine the evidence before making a judgement about the holyhoax. Nessie seems to be in a contest with his alleged witnesses about who can drop the biggest clanger.
Nessie has no records of regularly scheduled trains except for the nine fahrplanaordnungs. There are no train records for even the deportees who were known to have left Treblinka II via rail.
From the fahrplanaordnungs there was a Treblinka about a mile from Malkinia. That's what the Germans called it so if you want to call them liars then go for it.
Yep, and if it supports Nessie's belief in the holyhoax it's accepted and if not then it's either ignored or rejected.
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Post by Nessie on Oct 26, 2022 11:09:46 GMT
The question "where did they go?" is best dealt with by precise examples.
1 - the Kiev Jews ordered to gather at Babi Yar in 1941.
2 - the Riga Ghetto Jews sent to Rumbula in 1941.
3 - the Warsaw Ghetto Jews sent to TII in 1942
4 - the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943
5 - the Hungarian Jews sent to Birkenau in 1944.
For the vast majority who arrived at those places, the evidence of their existence ends there.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Oct 29, 2022 4:11:21 GMT
The question "where did they go?" is best dealt with by precise examples. 1 - the Kiev Jews ordered to gather at Babi Yar in 1941. 2 - the Riga Ghetto Jews sent to Rumbula in 1941. 3 - the Warsaw Ghetto Jews sent to TII in 1942 4 - the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943 5 - the Hungarian Jews sent to Birkenau in 1944. For the vast majority who arrived at those places, the evidence of their existence ends there. - never happened.
- hundreds of labour camps for jews in the region
- Train stopped at destinations of labour camps en route.
- Left Sobibor by the hundreds except for a few disabled.
- The majority went to onr of the 150 or so the Hungarian Jewish Labour camps in Austria
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Post by Nessie on Oct 29, 2022 7:21:08 GMT
The question "where did they go?" is best dealt with by precise examples. 1 - the Kiev Jews ordered to gather at Babi Yar in 1941. 2 - the Riga Ghetto Jews sent to Rumbula in 1941. 3 - the Warsaw Ghetto Jews sent to TII in 1942 4 - the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943 5 - the Hungarian Jews sent to Birkenau in 1944. For the vast majority who arrived at those places, the evidence of their existence ends there. - never happened.
- hundreds of labour camps for jews in the region
- Train stopped at destinations of labour camps en route.
- Left Sobibor by the hundreds except for a few disabled.
- The majority went to onr of the 150 or so the Hungarian Jewish Labour camps in Austria
Can you show any evidence to back up your claims? |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Oct 29, 2022 7:23:20 GMT
- never happened.
- hundreds of labour camps for jews in the region
- Train stopped at destinations of labour camps en route.
- Left Sobibor by the hundreds except for a few disabled.
- The majority went to onr of the 150 or so the Hungarian Jewish Labour camps in Austria
Can you show any evidence to back up your claims? That has been done over multiple threads. |
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Post by Nessie on Oct 29, 2022 7:58:02 GMT
Can you show any evidence to back up your claims? That has been done over multiple threads. That is not true. You have not shown a direct link between the Jews of Kiev under Nazi control and the camps of Ukraine. You think that just finding a reference to a labour camp in Ukraine is good enough to evidence that is where the Kiev Jews went in 1941. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Oct 29, 2022 8:07:17 GMT
That has been done over multiple threads. That is not true. You have not shown a direct link between the Jews of Kiev under Nazi control and the camps of Ukraine. You think that just finding a reference to a labour camp in Ukraine is good enough to evidence that is where the Kiev Jews went in 1941. I have a list of multiple labour camps for Jews in Ukraine. The Kiev Ghetto has also been established as fact as well as the Konzentrationslager nearby. No bones or anything was reported when the ravine dam burst which seriously implies nothing was there. Nothing was reported except for 3 eye witnesses to this apparent atrocity. Please do not pretend to know about the Kiev Ghetto. However to be sorta fair this is work in progress to establish a wilder field of reality. |
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Post by Nessie on Oct 29, 2022 8:14:02 GMT
That is not true. You have not shown a direct link between the Jews of Kiev under Nazi control and the camps of Ukraine. You think that just finding a reference to a labour camp in Ukraine is good enough to evidence that is where the Kiev Jews went in 1941. I have a list of multiple labour camps for Jews in Ukraine. The Kiev Ghetto has also been established as fact as well as the Konzentrationslager nearby. No bones or anything was reported when the ravine dam burst which seriously implies nothing was there. Nothing was reported except for 3 eye witnesses to this apparent atrocity. Please do not pretend to know about the Kiev Ghetto. However to be sorta fair this is work in progress to establish a wilder field of reality.
Is your claim that the only evidence for the massacre of Babi Yar is 3 eyewitnesses correct?
Can you show me evidence of a ghetto for Jews in Kiev in 1941?
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Oct 29, 2022 8:21:48 GMT
Is your claim that the only evidence for the massacre of Babi Yar is 3 eyewitnesses correct?
Can you show me evidence of a ghetto for Jews in Kiev in 1941?
Yes there are only 3 NKVD eyewitnesses to this alleged event. This hinges around them and no other reports. Ghetto: 4162 Place Kiew-Syrezk (Київ/Kyjiw) Name Area Reichskommissariat Ukraine (1941-1944)Opening Liquidation Ende Oktober 1943 [LIT] Deportations Company Kind of work Remarks Map entry Der Ort befindet sich außerhalb des Kartenausschnitts. Literature reference Robel 1996 ghetto number 4162 location Kyiv-Syretsk (Київ/Kyjiw) designation Area Reich Commissariat Ukraine (1941-1944) opening liquidation end of October 1943 [LIT] |
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Post by Nessie on Oct 29, 2022 8:39:37 GMT
Is your claim that the only evidence for the massacre of Babi Yar is 3 eyewitnesses correct?
Can you show me evidence of a ghetto for Jews in Kiev in 1941?
Yes there are only 3 NKVD eyewitnesses to this alleged event. This hinges around them and no other reports. Are you referring to the massacre in Sept 1944, where the EG ordered the remaining Jews in Kiev to gather at Babi Yar? That is the same information, posted twice. Show me the evidence of a ghetto at Kiew-Syrezk that was open in Sept 1941. |
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