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Post by Ulios on Aug 15, 2022 10:39:12 GMT
I think it was mentioned that the Treblinka II at the current location is not that described in the maps and witness statements. It seems that Treblinka was an exit point near the camps something quite generalized. There is eye witness evidence from the 13 German and 7 Ukrainian camp staff and 14 Jewish Sonderkommandos who gave testimony about working at TII, the dozen or so Polish local and railway workers who lived around Treblinka and the 30 or so people who were transported back out of TII, to the mass transports to the camp.
There is documentary evidence from multiple ghettos and Nazi transport reports, including the Hofle Telegram, Ganzenmuller Letter and Stroop and Korherr reports of regular mass transports to TII.
There is the circumstantial evidence of Action Reinhardt and the clearing of ghettos to camps, involving hundreds of thousands of people.
How is that "severely lacking" in terms of evidence? ? The TII you speak of is not the Treblinka in their testimony. The Korherr report does not mention TII at all, just the camps of the General Government. The Hoefle telegram does not mention Treblinka, just a T, which could be the town.
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Post by Nessie on Aug 15, 2022 10:51:35 GMT
There is eye witness evidence from the 13 German and 7 Ukrainian camp staff and 14 Jewish Sonderkommandos who gave testimony about working at TII, the dozen or so Polish local and railway workers who lived around Treblinka and the 30 or so people who were transported back out of TII, to the mass transports to the camp.
There is documentary evidence from multiple ghettos and Nazi transport reports, including the Hofle Telegram, Ganzenmuller Letter and Stroop and Korherr reports of regular mass transports to TII.
There is the circumstantial evidence of Action Reinhardt and the clearing of ghettos to camps, involving hundreds of thousands of people.
How is that "severely lacking" in terms of evidence? ? The TII you speak of is not the Treblinka in their testimony. The Korherr report does not mention TII at all, just the camps of the General Government. The Hoefle telegram does not mention Treblinka, just a T, which could be the town. All of the witnesses are clear that they are referring to a camp on a spur line running from the mainline near Treblinka station, to a quarry and labour camp. All of the Nazi witnesses worked on AR and before that T4. The Hofle Telegram is in reference to AR transports.
There is no evidence c850,000 people were sent to Treblinka village or general area, all the evidence is that they were sent to the camp commonly referred to TII, or Treblinka death camp.
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Post by Ulios on Aug 15, 2022 11:07:53 GMT
There is no evidence c850,000 people were sent to Treblinka village or general area, all the evidence is that they were sent to Treblinka was a camp complex or a series of camps. I think also includes Kosow Podlaski a few km from your TII. The witnesses description in many cases are different to your description AS ARE the first maps.
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Post by Nessie on Aug 15, 2022 11:25:43 GMT
There is no evidence c850,000 people were sent to Treblinka village or general area, all the evidence is that they were sent to Treblinka was a camp complex or a series of camps. I think also includes Kosow Podlaski a few km from your TII. The witnesses description in many cases are different to your description AS ARE the first maps. This thread is about people transported to the camp commonly known as TII or Treblinka death camp, located on the spur line between Treblinka station and Treblinka labour camp/quarry.
Your wanderings about other camps are off topic.
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Post by Ulios on Aug 15, 2022 11:31:46 GMT
Treblinka was a camp complex or a series of camps. I think also includes Kosow Podlaski a few km from your TII. The witnesses description in many cases are different to your description AS ARE the first maps. This thread is about people transported to the camp commonly known as TII or Treblinka death camp, located on the spur line between Treblinka station and Treblinka labour camp/quarry.
Your wanderings about other camps are off topic.
It is not off topic if the evidence depicts another camp or a plethora of similar camps in the area.
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Post by Nessie on Aug 15, 2022 11:35:06 GMT
This thread is about people transported to the camp commonly known as TII or Treblinka death camp, located on the spur line between Treblinka station and Treblinka labour camp/quarry.
Your wanderings about other camps are off topic.
It is not off topic if the evidence depicts another camp or a plethora of similar camps in the area. You have joined in the attempt to distract from the complete lack of any evidence of mass transports back out of TII, by trying to pretend that there is a lack of evidence of mass transports to that camp. That is why you ignored my post where I asked you to explain how the evidence is "severely lacking" when there are multiple witnesses and documents and the circumstantial evidence of mass transports to TII.
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 15, 2022 11:37:17 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie further demonstrates his inability to distinguish between "evidence" and "proof". There is PROOF that ~15,000 deportees left Treblinka via rail. That is EVIDENCE that Treblinka was a transit camp. Nessie claims (or pretends) to not be able to understand that. Which is it, Nessie, can't you understand the difference between "evidence" and "proof" or are you just pretending?
Evidence is proven by corroboration from alternate sources. Evidence that has no corroborating documents remains unproven evidence. There are estimates of between 700,000 and 3 million being sent to Treblinka. There are no supporting documents such as the complete train records to support such estimates.
Zabecki claimed that 1.2 million were sent to Treblinka. He also testified that NO trains carrying passengers left Treblinka. There are eyewitnesses who claim to have left Treblinka via rail. There is also at least one eyewitness, Zabecki, who claims that NO trains left Treblinka with passengers. All of that has been beaten to death. Your faux ignorance of it constitutes a deliberate lie.
The number of trains that entered and left Treblinka is UNKNOWN. Those records are missing. Your claim that the majority of trains that entered and left Treblinka were shuttle/fahrplanaordnung trains is specious bullsh!t.
There is proof that mass transport was used to transport thousands of people out of Treblinka. You have no proof that the deportees weren't transported out of Treblinka but were gassed, buried, exhumed and cremated.
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Post by Nessie on Aug 15, 2022 11:55:56 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie further demonstrates his inability to distinguish between "evidence" and "proof". There is PROOF that ~15,000 deportees left Treblinka via rail. That is EVIDENCE that Treblinka was a transit camp. Nessie claims (or pretends) to not be able to understand that. Which is it, Nessie, can't you understand the difference between "evidence" and "proof" or are you just pretending? How about you say what the evidence is and how it proves your claim? A conclusion is proven by corroborating evidence. Evidence is verified by other corroborating evidence. One eyewitness, or one document, is normally insufficient on its own to prove a conclusion. Two eyewitnesses, or two documents, or an eyewitness and a document can corroborate each other. The Korherr Report, Ganzenmuller Letter, Hofle Telegram, Stroop Report and all the ghetto population and transport records corroborate to prove hundreds of thousands were sent to TII, to the tune of at least 700,000. Any figure over that is estimated, but whether it is the lowest 715,000 or the highest of 3 million, it still means a huge number of people need to be accounted for AFTER they arrived at the camp. The 3 million figure is an exaggeration and the best evidence is the figure is c840-860,000. That is evidence of mass arrivals and empty trains leaving and that the few thousand who did leave were missed, is circumstantial evidence it was only a few thousand who left. You are again ignoring there is no evidence of a stream of mass transports leaving TII. Evidence one place that was not a ghetto, that sent trains to TII. There is no where. Only ghettos sent trains to TII, as they emptied their populations to the camp. The records you claim are missing, never existed, because there were nowhere else that sent anyone to TII and there are no missing records of empty trains arriving to take people away, because that did not happen. There is eye witness and some documentary evidence that a few thousand left TII to work in labour camps in Poland. There is no evidence from any source whatsoever, to back up your claim hundreds of thousands left TII.
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 15, 2022 13:10:08 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Quit your weasel dodging. That's been beaten to death. Then answer the question, "Are you truly ignorant or just pretending?".
Indeed and Wiernik, Rajchman and Rosenberg all corroborate each other's claim that the gas chamber was hermetically sealed.
The Stroop report is a forgery. Neither Korherr nor Hoefle mention Treblinka by name. The Ganzenmueller/Wolff letters discuss the capacity of trains used to transfer Jews from Warsaw to Treblinka. They don't discuss the total number of Jews to be transferred. They corroborate nothing except that an unknown number of Jews were moved.
You are apparently hanging your hat on the Zabecki testimony. Giddoutahere! From your link, about 40 people testified to leaving Treblinka and Hunt used about 20 of them in his video. You are claiming that Zabecki was off having a pee or something and just happened to miss seeing the 40 trains carrying passengers go past his station. That ranks close to the little boy riding his tricycle to the moon fairy tale.
Take your Wikipedia timeline and sell it down the street, Nessie.
Are you seriously claiming that the Germans kept no records of the movement of their rolling stock? A simple yes or no will do. You might note that the Germans did have fahrplanaordnung records but you're saying that those were the only records of trains kept by the Germans. You should also realize how idiotic you sound.
Once again Nessie demonstrates that he's unaware of the difference between "evidence" and "proof". Either that or he's just pretending to suit the needs of his holyhoax claims. He's also now claiming that the train records that would provide definitive proof of whether the deportees were transported to alternate destination never existed. Nessie's pile of contradictory claims is reaching astronomical heights.
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Post by Nessie on Aug 15, 2022 13:50:37 GMT
Nessie wrote: Quit your weasel dodging. That's been beaten to death. Then answer the question, "Are you truly ignorant or just pretending?". You don't understanding evidencing and proof. Proof comes from evidence. Evidence is eye witnesses, documents, physical items etc. Evidence is not your opinion on the way witnesses describe what they saw. They also all agree on the same context, the hermetic sealing was once the chamber was full of people and the doors were closed. As you said, they were ignorant of Boyle's Law and did not realise that because of the gas being pumped in, the chamber was not a perfect hermetic seal. They were referring to the doors not leaking. An unknown number, that was in the hundreds of thousands, and the ghettos that were cleared to TII amounted to c840-860,000, which is corroborated by Hofle and Korherr. Hofle worked for Action Reinhardt. Korherr personally confirmed his report. Stroop worked at the Warsaw ghetto. The ghetto records provide details about how many were sent to TII. You are missing; 1 - since we do not have online access to his entire report, we do not know if he recorded details of trains leaving with passengers 2 - we do not know it was 40 trains, since some witnesses may have left on the same train 3 - with all the hundreds of trains shuttling back and forth to TII, it would be easy to miss those with passengers. 4 - Treblinka station was north of the spur, Majdanek to the south, trains leaving to go to Majdanek would not pass through Treblinka station. IOW, there is no evidence of a transport to TII, other than from a ghetto. No. You are. You are suggesting they kept records of all movements, except the hundreds of thousands who left for the Lublin District. The only transports that are not evidenced by at least some documentary evidence, are the magical mystery transports you claim took hundreds of thousands of people back out of TII. The Germans left documents evidencing mass arrivals from ghettos with the trains returning empty and documents at Majdanek of arrivals from TII. You have no eye witnesses and no documents to use as evidence to prove hundreds of thousands of people left TII. There is evidence to prove they did not leave TII, because they were gassed. You are unable to provide an evidenced narrative as to what happened at TII.
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Post by been_there on Aug 15, 2022 13:54:59 GMT
...Most people have never looked into the actual evidence. So they are believing based upon gullible ignorance. All people applying rationality, logic and intelligence to the actual evidence realise the mass-gassing calumny is a non-credible, anti-German mythology. If event A is evidenced and event B is not evidenced, then logically, event A took place. That is not a non sequitur. I agree. But in this case event A is not evidenced. On the contrary the claims for event A have been scientifically and empirically refuted. Which therefore rquires another explanation. Case B is one such. You are in denial of this logic. Which ironically shows that you are the real โdenierโ here. ๐
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Post by been_there on Aug 15, 2022 13:56:57 GMT
Treblinka was a camp complex or a series of camps. I think also includes Kosow Podlaski a few km from your TII. The witnesses description in many cases are different to your description AS ARE the first maps. This thread is about people transported to the camp commonly known as TII or Treblinka death camp, located on the spur line between Treblinka station and Treblinka labour camp/quarry.
Your wanderings about other camps are off topic.
๐คฆโโ๏ธ You understand nothing if it refutes your cultish belief-system
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Post by Nessie on Aug 15, 2022 14:03:06 GMT
If event A is evidenced and event B is not evidenced, then logically, event A took place. That is not a non sequitur. I agree. But in this case event A is not evidenced. That is not true. It is evidenced by eye witnesses, documents, physical, archaeological, forensic, photographic and circumstantial evidence. Which means there is evidence, it is just you disagree with it. In any case, deniers have not been through every single eye witness statement, document etc and refuted them all. Furthermore, the methodology used for the supposed refutation is flawed, as it is based on argument, not contemporaneous evidence directly relating to or from TII. No denier has produced an evidenced case as to what did happen inside TII and that hundreds of thousands of people left the camp to be accommodated elsewhere.
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Post by Ulios on Aug 15, 2022 20:25:50 GMT
No denier has produced an evidenced case as to what did happen inside TII and that hundreds of thousands of people left the camp to be accommodated elsewhere. To find issues with the TII scenario does not make one a "denier"; the evidence produced is not sufficient to warrant blind belief like some do. Treblinka was a set of camps named after the centre town, it was also an exit point. The Germans did not build over 600 camps in Belarus just to leave them empty.
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Post by Turnagain on Aug 16, 2022 0:36:07 GMT
Ulios wrote:
There is proof that deportees did leave Treblinka via rail. That is evidence that Treblinka was a transit camp. The ~600 camps built by the Germans in Belarus is more evidence that the AR camps were transit camps.
Nessie also argues that to be eligible for deportation to Treblinka a Jew must first have been a ghetto inmate. The fact that a Jew wasn't a ghetto dweller was apparently an automatic "get out of being sent to Treblinka" card.
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