Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 10, 2022 12:31:35 GMT
Here is one of the timelines, which historians have pieced together using ghetto transport records "Fahrplananordnung", of the transports to TII, as those ghettos were being emptied of people; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka_extermination_campHere is the Warsaw timetable, known as the shuttle record;
Those transports also referenced in the Ganzenmuller Letter;
which recorded a daily transport of 5000 Jews from Warsaw to TII. Here is the Radom district record, with transports from Sedziszow, Syzdlowiec and Kozienice
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Timetable_to_Treblinka_from_Radom_district_September_1942.jpgHere is the Lukow record; The records alone prove trains from all over Poland, transported people to TII and then returned empty. That is consistent with gassings, not resettlement.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on May 10, 2022 19:40:20 GMT
Here is one of the timelines, which historians have pieced together using ghetto transport records "Fahrplananordnung", of the transports to TII, as those ghettos were being emptied of people; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka_extermination_campHere is the Warsaw timetable, known as the shuttle record;
Those transports also referenced in the Ganzenmuller Letter;
which recorded a daily transport of 5000 Jews from Warsaw to TII. Here is the Radom district record, with transports from Sedziszow, Syzdlowiec and Kozienice
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Timetable_to_Treblinka_from_Radom_district_September_1942.jpgHere is the Lukow record; The records alone prove trains from all over Poland, transported people to TII and then returned empty. That is consistent with gassings, not resettlement. No that's consistent with both narratives in fact. Both resettlement and extermination would see empty trains returning given the limited carrying capacity of the transport equipment. Is all this stuff any advance on Raul Hilberg or are we just re hashing his stuff?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 11, 2022 9:08:35 GMT
.... The records alone prove trains from all over Poland, transported people to TII and then returned empty. That is consistent with gassings, not resettlement. No that's consistent with both narratives in fact. Both resettlement and extermination would see empty trains returning given the limited carrying capacity of the transport equipment. Is all this stuff any advance on Raul Hilberg or are we just re hashing his stuff? [/quote] The trains that carried people from the ghettos to TII, that returned empty, would mean that other trains would be needed for any onward journey. There is no evidence, from documents or witnesses, of empty trains arriving at TII to transport hundreds of thousands of people elsewhere.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on May 11, 2022 15:32:46 GMT
.... The records alone prove trains from all over Poland, transported people to TII and then returned empty. That is consistent with gassings, not resettlement. No that's consistent with both narratives in fact. Both resettlement and extermination would see empty trains returning given the limited carrying capacity of the transport equipment. Is all this stuff any advance on Raul Hilberg or are we just re hashing his stuff? The trains that carried people from the ghettos to TII, that returned empty, would mean that other trains would be needed for any onward journey. There is no evidence, from documents or witnesses, of empty trains arriving at TII to transport hundreds of thousands of people elsewhere. [/quote] Indeed, in fact there is a dearth of transport evidence either empty or full. So there is no evidence of murder on this line of enquiry.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 11, 2022 16:14:28 GMT
.... Indeed, in fact there is a dearth of transport evidence either empty or full. So there is no evidence of murder on this line of enquiry. There are multiple documents and/or witnesses evidencing mass transports of trains full of people to TII, most trains leaving TII empty, with some carrying property to Lublin and others carrying people selected for work at Majdanek, Budzyn or Poniatowa camps in Poland. There is no evidence from any source of trains carrying hundreds of thousands of people back out of TII, or those people leaving the camp on foot or in vehicles.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on May 11, 2022 20:29:02 GMT
.... Indeed, in fact there is a dearth of transport evidence either empty or full. So there is no evidence of murder on this line of enquiry. There are multiple documents and/or witnesses evidencing mass transports of trains full of people to TII, most trains leaving TII empty, with some carrying property to Lublin and others carrying people selected for work at Majdanek, Budzyn or Poniatowa camps in Poland. There is no evidence from any source of trains carrying hundreds of thousands of people back out of TII, or those people leaving the camp on foot or in vehicles. Yes, and there is a dearth of evidence here ie the record is incomplete.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 11, 2022 21:09:55 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Of course there's evidence of deportees being transported from T-II to other destinations. There is testimony that people stayed at T-II for up to eight days before being transported onward so the deportees generally didn't leave Treblinka on the same train they arrived in. The number of trains that entered Treblinka empty is unknown due to such records being destroyed.
Nessie has no way to determine if his claim that only the 15-20,000 deportees who are known to have left Treblinka for other destinations were the only deportees who left Treblinka alive. Nessie claims that those deportees were "selected for work" so don't count fails to take into account that in one instance an entire trainload of men, women and children were sent to Auschwitz. There's no records for any of those trains.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 12, 2022 9:06:59 GMT
Nessie wrote: Of course there's evidence of deportees being transported from T-II to other destinations. Be specific, there is evidence of 15-20 trains that took a few thousand to work at Majdanek, Budzyn and Poniatowa camps in Poland. What happened to the rest of the people? I presume you speak of Kulawy, whose testimony is not available online to read it all and who said he went on a mass transport to A-B. Records at A-B show a mass transport from Malkinia, nearby to TII. No one who worked at TII speaks to prisoners being transferred to other camps being accommodated at TII and none who produce plans of the camp included anywhere for deportees to stay. The evidence is that he was not at TII. Many in Hunt's video speak to leaving on the train they arrived on. Correct, we do not know how many trains entered TII, though we do know it is a far higher number than the transports sent to TII, since those transports had to be split to fit into TII. We know of 394 transports, so if each one was split into 3 to enter TII, that is 1182 trains. Lie, there is the evidence as to what happened. You demand we believe in what is not evidenced, which is stupid. Except there is a record at A-B of a mass transport from Malkinia, which you weasel dodge.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 12, 2022 9:11:03 GMT
Turnagain weasel dodges that there is no evidence of hundreds of transports leaving TII full of people. There are no documents, no witnesses from TII, no witnesses from the trains and no evidence of any sort of hundreds of thousands arriving at other places, to be fed, clothed and accommodated.
Talking about feeding and clothing, the Nazis had stripped people of everything when they arrived at TII, cut their hair and removed their gold teeth. So, according to Turnagain, the resettlement process was of naked people with no hair and missing teeth!!!
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on May 12, 2022 12:27:32 GMT
Turnagain weasel dodges that there is no evidence of hundreds of transports leaving TII full of people. There are no documents, no witnesses from TII, no witnesses from the trains and no evidence of any sort of hundreds of thousands arriving at other places, to be fed, clothed and accommodated. Talking about feeding and clothing, the Nazis had stripped people of everything when they arrived at TII, cut their hair and removed their gold teeth. So, according to Turnagain, the resettlement process was of naked people with no hair and missing teeth!!! And there are no bodies either, so you weasel dodge that this is not evidence of mass murder. Further, cutting hair is a good thing, people were not being sent anywhere naked, and taxation is common. But if you've got photos of naked people that would be interesting.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 12, 2022 13:34:39 GMT
Turnagain weasel dodges that there is no evidence of hundreds of transports leaving TII full of people. There are no documents, no witnesses from TII, no witnesses from the trains and no evidence of any sort of hundreds of thousands arriving at other places, to be fed, clothed and accommodated. Talking about feeding and clothing, the Nazis had stripped people of everything when they arrived at TII, cut their hair and removed their gold teeth. So, according to Turnagain, the resettlement process was of naked people with no hair and missing teeth!!! And there are no bodies either, so you weasel dodge that this is not evidence of mass murder. There are large areas of buried cremated and larger human remains. According to you, they were sent for resettlement naked, since all their clothes were taken from them.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on May 12, 2022 13:53:07 GMT
And there are no bodies either, so you weasel dodge that this is not evidence of mass murder. There are large areas of buried cremated and larger human remains. According to you, they were sent for resettlement naked, since all their clothes were taken from them. No there are not. While it's conceivable that there are some bodies buried there it's most likely in the magnitude and circumstances of Belzec. There are no enormous amounts of cremains. Being sent from the camp naked is silly. No one in Reich camps was ever naked unless dead and stripped or bathing in showers.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 12, 2022 14:07:27 GMT
There are large areas of buried cremated and larger human remains. According to you, they were sent for resettlement naked, since all their clothes were taken from them. No there are not. While it's conceivable that there are some bodies buried there it's most likely in the magnitude and circumstances of Belzec. There are no enormous amounts of cremains. Show me your archaeological evidence that site examinations found hardly any cremains. Where is the evidence of people being showered and given their clothes, or new clothes back and then put on to trains and sent onwards for resettlement?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 12, 2022 14:47:44 GMT
Nessie wrote:
For years hoaxsters claimed that only a handful of people escaped Treblinka alive after a rebellion by the inmates. Wiernik wrote in his book that the Germans killed a German woman and her two sons to keep the Treblinka extermination facility a secret. That has been proven to be a lie. Not a "mistake" or an "exaggeration" but an outright LIE.
Contrary to Nessie's claims there is no PROOF of Jews being gassed with CO at Treblinka, buried, exhumed, cremated and reburied. Nessie tries to morph his "evidence" into proof but fails and fails miserably. All of his witnesses to the lethal gassing participated in the lie that only a handful of prisoners escaped from Treblinka. That lie makes suspect all of those witnesses testimony. There are 15-20,000 Jews who are KNOWN to have left Treblinka which puts paid to the lie that only a handful of prisoners escaped.
Nessie's claim that everyone who isn't recorded as leaving Treblinka was murdered based on the words of known liars is bullsh!t. If 15-20,000 deportees are KNOWN to have left Treblinka alive there's no reason to not believe that the rest of the deportees also left Treblinka for alternate destinations.
Note how Nessie never specifically lists his evidence and the quantity of that evidence. For example his claim for cremains being found at Treblinka consists of a tiny handful of unidentified bone shards while he fails to mention the fact that Jews have been video recorded dumping cremains at the site. Nessie has NOTHING to prove that Treblinka was an extermination facility.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on May 12, 2022 16:54:07 GMT
Nessie wrote: For years hoaxsters claimed that only a handful of people escaped Treblinka alive after a rebellion by the inmates. Wiernik wrote in his book that the Germans killed a German woman and her two sons to keep the Treblinka extermination facility a secret. That has been proven to be a lie. Not a "mistake" or an "exaggeration" but an outright LIE. Contrary to Nessie's claims there is no PROOF of Jews being gassed with CO at Treblinka, buried, exhumed, cremated and reburied. Nessie tries to morph his "evidence" into proof but fails and fails miserably. All of his witnesses to the lethal gassing participated in the lie that only a handful of prisoners escaped from Treblinka. That lie makes suspect all of those witnesses testimony. There are 15-20,000 Jews who are KNOWN to have left Treblinka which puts paid to the lie that only a handful of prisoners escaped. Nessie's claim that everyone who isn't recorded as leaving Treblinka was murdered based on the words of known liars is bullsh!t. If 15-20,000 deportees are KNOWN to have left Treblinka alive there's no reason to not believe that the rest of the deportees also left Treblinka for alternate destinations. Note how Nessie never specifically lists his evidence and the quantity of that evidence. For example his claim for cremains being found at Treblinka consists of a tiny handful of unidentified bone shards while he fails to mention the fact that Jews have been video recorded dumping cremains at the site. Nessie has NOTHING to prove that Treblinka was an extermination facility. Nessie defends the lies and the character of liars, and ignores the issues that are raised. In a separate bit related matter I read today on codoh he also lied about not knowing about Franz Blaha to a revisionist named Bob. Bob then posted a post by Nessie literally linking to information about and by said person. Nessie feebly tried to claim that just because he linked to him in argument didn't mean he knows about him, clearly trying to parse exactly what "know about" means. His argumentation then begins to sputter out on that thread, he doesn't try to continue claiming things about revisionists to Bob,and his fight there day is over. Hilariously Nessie then tries to lecture us about truthfulness and credibility. ;-)
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