Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 5, 2021 16:54:08 GMT
As I just pointed out the self-evident fact that he didnโt claim ALL the T2 witnesses lied. E.g. he has often referred to the testimony of numerous witnesses being transited through T2 as accurate. ..... Turnagain has claimed that every witness who worked inside TII has lied. He then ignores that the witness who stated they had stayed at and/or were transited through TII also stated their belief it was a death camp, which he clearly does not believe is accurate, as you claim. Indeed, their claims it was a death camp would make them also liars.
Fact is, neither Turnagain, or you or any other revisionist or denier can name one single witness who was inside TII and told the truth about what happened there.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 5, 2021 17:06:05 GMT
..... OK. Last attempt to engage you in intelligent dialogue: can YOU explain those statements of the so-called eyewitnesses to the alleged murder and disposal of some 850,000 Jews at Treblinka which defy laws of physics, are refuted by the remaining empirical evidence at the site and some of which have even been accepted by believers and professional champions of the official narrative as false and therefore as lies? Do you understand yet? Do you need examples of such eye-witness (lie-witness?) testimony? I explain the statements as being within the normal range of mistakes, exaggerations and inaccuracies from witnesses and accused who are interviewed, years, if not decades after the event.
It is only by taking what the witnesses and accused said very literally, and assuming they would not make mistakes, exaggerate, hide or otherwise misremember, that it is made to appear what they claim is physically impossible. It is in fact not physically impossible for the Germans to have built gas chambers using concrete, bricks, tiles, wood, pipes, valves and an engine, or to have dug huge pits, or to have cremated bodies on pyres on rails above wood fires.
The empirical evidence at TII backs up the witness claims, it does not refute them. Large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains have been found there, which corroborates the witnesses.
You keep on asking loaded questions, which contain false claims.
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Post by been_there on Nov 5, 2021 17:27:53 GMT
...Turnagain ignores the witnesses who stated they had stayed at and/or were transited through TII also stated their belief it was a death camp, which he clearly does not believe is accurate, as you claim. Indeed, their claims it was a death camp would make them also liars.
Fact is, neither Turnagain, or you or any other revisionist or denier can name one single witness who was inside TII and told the truth about what happened there. Oh boy! ๐๐คฆโโ๏ธ Well, there we have it. Proof that attempting a logical, rational, intelligent conversation with this person is an exercise in futility. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 5, 2021 17:38:15 GMT
...Turnagain ignores the witnesses who stated they had stayed at and/or were transited through TII also stated their belief it was a death camp, which he clearly does not believe is accurate, as you claim. Indeed, their claims it was a death camp would make them also liars.
Fact is, neither Turnagain, or you or any other revisionist or denier can name one single witness who was inside TII and told the truth about what happened there. Oh boy! ๐๐คฆโโ๏ธ Well, there we have it. Proof that attempting a logical, rational, intelligent conversation with this person is an exercise in futility. You are demanding that I accept the premise that the witnesses lied about TII being a death camp, then you have tried to claim that there are witnesses who told the truth, so how about you name those witnesses?
Start with Helen Schwartz. Do you believe what she said about TII? She said she hid inside a latrine to avoid work, that it was a death camp and when she went for a shower, she was relieved it was not gas that came out. Liar, or accurate and truthful witness?
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 5, 2021 19:27:53 GMT
What did happen inside TII, 1942-3? Show your evidence from eyewitnesses who worked inside the camp, or were otherwise at the camp, and any documents directly pertaining to the camp, and any physical and archaeological evidence gathered from the camp site. What happened inside this facility is important, but there is much conjecture about the status of the place and the reality. Most people are well aware of the alleged atrocities, so there is little point in describing them ad infinitum. While there are the stories of horror another witness Marian Oszluk who live nearby saw, heard or smelled anything untoward; he was not not approached as an official witness by post war allied investigators. There is a monument now at the place which may be fitting considering the suffering of many, It is irrelevant whether there are corpses beneath the stones. As mentioned in another post ( Definition of Holocaust) a genocide can involve murder of people, but that is not a necessity; the intention of bringing about serious mental harm is enough. The fact that some people have said atrocities occurred at this particular geographical location is not enough to ascertain the reality; it has been considered that Czerwony bor, 30 km north, an execution centre was the cause of the TII myth. Some 10 km south of Treblinka was another camp called Kosow Podlaski regarded as an extermination centre at least by US Intelligence. For some reasons no one seems to bother about this "Treblinka" camp any more. If Treblinka II was at the geographical location described and the horrors mentioned did occur, then one would expect greater physical evidence than what is found; after all the destruction of 750 thousand corpses would leave a good deal of detritus. It can be acknowledged that perhaps some evidence of corpses were found, which is to be expected in a war where people were legitimately executed or euthanized, died of natural causes or disease. The issue is the magnitude. It is also known that hundreds of thousands of people (Jรผdische) did appear in Ostland, Belarus from Western Poland; as they were under shutzhaft (protective custody) it can be expected they were placed in a series of camps on their journey. This does not preclude the possibility that others were murdered of course; if so what was the criteria for this murder. In the past it has been mentioned in old threads in RODOH 2 that the useless eaters, those unfit for work were euthanized; if so this fits in with Aktion 14F13 in its early stages. (This was modified later on so only the terminally ill were put down) The number of those "put to rest" by euthanasia were in the hundreds, perhaps a few thousand, but nothing of the magnitude as described. Turnagain and others have shown evidence of people transiting out of Treblinka II (12 thousand or so people), which is possibly just the tip of the iceberg. While it is possible that TII at this geographical location may have been responsible for the murder of some 750 souls that thought should be held with a great deal of caution unless more evidence is presented. Either way, the alleged events is not relevant to the attempted genocide of a group of people, which by definition could be (article 2 of the convention) - murder of some (or all)
- physical and or mental harm
- Physical conditions to bring partial destruction
- sterilization, segregation
- Removal of children
It just seems that Treblinka is now a monument to the collection of horrors that the Jรผdische people felt at the time, and perhaps still do. The truth would give a good deal of more dignity to those who suffered, perhaps here and elsewhere than some fanciful story. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 5, 2021 20:07:28 GMT
1 - It is rather odd that Robert Faurisson forgot to ask Marian Olszuk what he saw regarding mass transports of people back out of TII; www.whale.to/b/treblinka2.htmlTypical revisionist, he was so intent on trying to prove no gassings, he forgot to look for evidence of what did happen. Such is the bizarre methodology of revisionism. 2 - Revisionists like to claim not enough physical evidence has been found at TII, of ground disturbances and remains, without ever quantifying what has been found. How much is not enough? 3 - A camp that euthanises "useless eaters" and only transports about 1% of arrivals to other camps, where those camps are west and south and are still in Poland, is not a transit camp sending hundreds of thousands to be accommodated in the east. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 5, 2021 20:46:03 GMT
1 - It is rather odd that Robert Faurisson forgot to ask Marian Olszuk what he saw regarding mass transports of people back out of TII; www.whale.to/b/treblinka2.htmlTypical revisionist, he was so intent on trying to prove no gassings, he forgot to look for evidence of what did happen. Such is the bizarre methodology of revisionism. 2 - Revisionists like to claim not enough physical evidence has been found at TII, of ground disturbances and remains, without ever quantifying what has been found. How much is not enough? 3 - A camp that euthanises "useless eaters" and only transports about 1% of arrivals to other camps, where those camps are west and south and are still in Poland, is not a transit camp sending hundreds of thousands to be accommodated in the east. - Marian saw nothing untoward, he was aware of people in the camp. "Every day people gathered in groups outside the front gate, openly engaging in barter and black market dealing." Olszuk tended fields every day 300 m from the camp. He thought they were juden from Warsaw. It begs the question why people in an extermination camp were bartering for goods. Perhaps there were not mass transports either in or out, the person describing those mistaken but people did leave as attested.
- 700 thousand or so bodies is much detritus quantitatively different to say a few hundred; what is significant can be mathematically determined once (if ever) all the information is really known and not just inferred.
- Aktion 14F13 occurred throughout the Reich, not limited to camps and certainly occurred in Sobibor. It was not limited to a single class of people either. As mentioned 11 thousand or so people did leave. The assumption it appears Nessie is making is that the transport numbers equate to the inmate muster; the train could have backed into the siding, dropped of the human contents of a few wagons, pulled out and went on its merry way; this happens all the time with rolling stock. There is a report of this happening and the train heading with human cargo to Wlodawa near Sobibor
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 5, 2021 21:29:40 GMT
Blackmarket at Extermination camp The thought of amiable guards throwing cigarettes to a Polish farm worker or the thought of black market activities occurring at an extermination center seem incompatible. Below are two eye witnesses to black market activities occurring at the alleged extermination camp Treblinka II. Henryk Gawkowski was a locomotive conductor at the Treblinka station and estimates that he transported approximately 18,000 Jews to the camp. He describes the black market and the prostitution that developed around the camp. says:"every day people gathered in groups outside the front gate, openly engaging in barter and black market dealing. Traffickers came from Warsaw to sell goods to the Ukrainian guards who, in turn, would do business with the Jewish prisoners to whom they sold food. Some of those Jews bought ham and sausages, which were luxury items at that time. The existence of the two camps at Treblinka was common knowledge, and a good many of the Jewish inmates seemed to have money, gold, or jewelry." What sort of a top secret extermination facility would allow such nonsense to go on. I am sure that Henryk and Marian were not confusing TII with Luft Stalag 13. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 6, 2021 3:34:55 GMT
Anyone who claims that close to a million people were gassed/asphyxiated, buried in giant mass graves then exhumed and cremated using little to no fuel on grates constructed from railroad rails, rocks, concrete pylons or blocks and their cremains either thrown back into the graves, used to grit roads or whatever is lying. Brick buildings cannot be used as pressure vessels. Giant graves can't be dug without proper equipment and cremations can't be conducted without sufficient fuel. Nessie's claim that I must prove what did happen is merely a deflection. What is claimed are impossibilities. What is impossible didn't happen. Nessie believes this with what seems to be insufficient information to sustain a belief; he has presented all of his witnesses etc before so there is little point him presenting them again (he can however, put in a formal proposition with his considered post). Nessie is heavily relying on personal testimony, which on the face of it is flawed, coerced or mistaken, especially at the Geographical location in question, where reliable eye witnesses give a different account, one of normality almost. Nessie, it seems, wants the horror stories of Treblinka II to be true and cannot tolerate any dissension away from that narrative. The stories are not even fit for Halloween. Nessie is also relying heavily on supposed transports that arrived at the location with no evidence of mass departures. The mass graves, the diggers have been done to death, which after 6 years or so have reached no satisfactory conclusion; there is simply information lacking which no amount of speculation can fill in, whatever, verbal drag-line is used. It is quite possible that one or two cars were dropped off by the train on some siding or spur line; the train then carries on its merry way towards some distant destination with the rest of the people. Much has been said about the Zabecki, station master at the village of Treblinka; waybills like anything can be forged; his lack of knowledge also means he is filling unknown gaps with speculation. What would be interesting if the waybills at other stations like Malkinia and Siedlce showing human stock rolling eastwards could be produced. Treblinka was not the only railways station in Poland and Zabecki not the only station master. |
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Nov 6, 2021 4:20:44 GMT
There are physical laws, universal truths such as water is wet and fire is hot. Claiming the contrary to suit an agenda isn't and can't be valid. Nessie can kick and screech from now til forever but he can't change reality. Some have the reason why there are no trees around this camps was due to them being cut down for fire wood, the funeral pyres. Of course it was all farmland and not forest. This Nessie believes in this event and has to bend reality to make the parts fit. However, he can think what he wishes. Others do not need to follow him. There are more things to discuss than the impossible. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 6, 2021 8:37:46 GMT
Anyone who claims that close to a million people were gassed/asphyxiated, buried in giant mass graves then exhumed and cremated using little to no fuel on grates constructed from railroad rails, rocks, concrete pylons or blocks and their cremains either thrown back into the graves, used to grit roads or whatever is lying. Brick buildings cannot be used as pressure vessels. Giant graves can't be dug without proper equipment and cremations can't be conducted without sufficient fuel. Nessie's claim that I must prove what did happen is merely a deflection. What is claimed are impossibilities. What is impossible didn't happen. Just because you think something was impossible, does not therefore mean it is impossible. Germans could engineer and construct gas chambers, dig big pits and cremate on pyres. Ironically, you happily believe what is physically impossible, the resettlement of millions of Jews without leaving any evidence whatsoever of that happening. Even for Germans, that is impossible. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 6, 2021 8:41:16 GMT
There are physical laws, universal truths such as water is wet and fire is hot. Claiming the contrary to suit an agenda isn't and can't be valid. Nessie can kick and screech from now til forever but he can't change reality. Some have the reason why there are no trees around this camps was due to them being cut down for fire wood, the funeral pyres. Of course it was all farmland and not forest. This Nessie believes in this event and has to bend reality to make the parts fit. However, he can think what he wishes. Others do not need to follow him. There are more things to discuss than the impossible. The claim you are making is that Germans cannot build a secure building using bricks, concrete and wood that can be used as a gas chamber with pipes, valves and an engine. They cannot dig big pits, or cremate on pyres with wood delivered from one of many Polish wood yards. You claim that is physically impossible.  |
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 6, 2021 8:58:59 GMT
Just because you think something was impossible, does not therefore mean it is impossible. Germans could engineer and construct gas chambers, dig big pits and cremate on pyres. Ironically, you happily believe what is physically impossible, the resettlement of millions of Jews without leaving any evidence whatsoever of that happening. Even for Germans, that is impossible. Nessie is correct in that nothing is impossible, it is really a matter of probability, when the constraints and resources at the time are considered. Some Germans could engineer and construct the things mentioned as could any experts with the resources needed. This thread is about Treblinka, not any resettlement which is another topic ( Dissolution of people); to bring up another topic while discussing this one could be misconstrued as attempted derailing.  Please stay on topic thank you Nessie. This thread is on "the fatuous lies of the so-called eyewitnesses" which seems like an emotional statement, except when one considers the plethora of threads made in the previous incarnation of RODOH. Why would anyone believe that wooden shacks could be gaskammer, like presented at Majdanek. If that shack is claimed to be a gaskammer, there is no reason to believe the Treblinka ones, if they existed would be any different. I am sure the German engineers were building rockets, planes and armaments, not gaskammer. Perhaps the poster Nessie could explain why a planned extermination center had black market issues going on, when the concentration should be on killing the people not allowing them to trade. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Nov 6, 2021 9:08:20 GMT
The claim you are making is that Germans cannot build a secure building using bricks, concrete and wood that can be used as a gas chamber with pipes, valves and an engine. They cannot dig big pits, or cremate on pyres with wood delivered from one of many Polish wood yards. You claim that is physically impossible. I do not think that was Wilibalds claim at all but just as you perceive it Nessie. Wilibald is saying that the statements you claim lack evidence and most unlikely to reflect reality, possible but improbable. The cremations on pyres has been discussed at length with mathematical calculations on thermo-chemistry; though while not impossible, highly improbable. On those cold winter nights I think the Poles would be more concerned with burning wood for heat than burning corpses; the same with the Germans inside their wooden huts. If there is evidence of some wood transports, seasoned wood, to this camp then that might be a different story but until then that is just speculation with little merit. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 6, 2021 9:33:52 GMT
My point is that physical possibility or otherwise cannot be determined by what witnesses say and how they describe something. Physical possibility can only be reliably determined by the engineering, construction and capabilities at that time. Considering what the Nazis were able to engineer and construct during WII, there is no doubt gas chambers, large pits and pyres were within their capabilities. What was not within their capabilities, was to transport and accommodate millions of people without leaving any evidence. That is physically impossible.
That is how to reliably determine if a witness is lying or not. The revisionist methodology of what they think was possible or not, based on how witnesses described events, is not a reliable methodology for determining truthfulness, because it fails to take into account normal witness issues, such as exaggeration, mistakes, mis-estimation, forgetfulness, hearsay etc.
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Please stay on topic thank you Nessie.