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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 10:49:21 GMT
Occams Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is that the data estimates are wrong. Ha ha ha! ๐
๐คฃ๐ The believer mind-set strikes again. If primary source material fits the belief it is viewed as accurate. If it doesnโt fit but contradicts the belief-system then it must be โwrongโ data. Facts donโt count here for the true-believer. They arenโt interested in analysing the TRUTH of โwhat actually happenedโ. They BELIEVE they already know. It begs the question of how they "know"; they actually think they know, but know very little. Their intent is to promulgate their belief system to the masses in the disguise of learned men. Wolf in sheeps attire indeed. Nessie claims he wishes to know what happened but starts with the premise he knows already. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 13:50:19 GMT
Occams Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is that the data estimates are wrong. Ha ha ha! ๐
๐คฃ๐ The believer mind-set strikes again. If primary source material fits the belief it is viewed as accurate. If it doesnโt fit but contradicts the belief-system then it must be โwrongโ data. ๐คฆโโ๏ธThis again shows that for a holocaust-believer and defender the belief is considered โrightโ no matter what evidence is discovered that refutes it. Thus we see here yet again that the starting position for judging what is acceptable โevidenceโ is whether it confirms the pre-conceived belief or not. Debbie Lipstadt, Nick Terry, Robbie Muhlenkamp, and all the anonymous online promoters such as those at klowns share this approach. That is why I maintain the problem is psychological not historiographical. Facts donโt count here for the true-believer. They arenโt interested in analysing the TRUTH of โwhat actually happenedโ. They BELIEVE they already know. There are plenty of reasons to be suspect of the "facts" you present. If you were open-minded, you would agree.
1 - they are from secondary sources that show bias 2 - they offer no links to the primary source, they only provide short quotes with no context and then give their opinion. 3 - on the face of it, estimates that the Jewish population hardly declined during WWII are odd, considering there was a war on and how Jews were generally treated by the Nazis.
4 - the figures are estimates, the sources show they are based on a pre-war estimate in 1938.
"The figures listed for 1941, 1947, and 1948 are identified as estimates made in 1938. The source for the estimate for 1944 is not given."
"In 1949, however, the World Almanac gives a revised 1939 population of 16,643,120 giving a difference of between 1938 and 1947 of 5,376,520."
Because you think the Almanac gives information you want to believe, you have not bothered to check if it is correct or not. You have unquestionably assumed it is correct and you have failed to analyse the data it has produced.
You have also failed to think through your allegation to its logical conclusion. If the Jewish population in Europe in WWII had barely declined, as the almanac suggests, then in 1944-5, millions of Jews would be returning to their homes, from Riga, to Warsaw, Budapest, Berlin, Amsterdam and Paris. The Allies would have been liberating so many Jews, they could hardly cope.
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Post by been_there on Jan 2, 2022 17:38:06 GMT
Ha ha ha! ๐
๐คฃ๐ The believer mind-set strikes again. If primary source material fits the belief it is viewed as accurate. If it doesnโt fit but contradicts the belief-system then it must be โwrongโ data. ๐คฆโโ๏ธThis again shows that for a holocaust-believer and defender the belief is considered โrightโ no matter what evidence is discovered that refutes it. Thus we see here yet again that the starting position for judging what is acceptable โevidenceโ is whether it confirms the pre-conceived belief or not. Debbie Lipstadt, Nick Terry, Robbie Muhlenkamp, and all the anonymous online promoters such as those at klowns share this approach. That is why I maintain the problem is psychological not historiographical. Facts donโt count here for the true-believer. They arenโt interested in analysing the TRUTH of โwhat actually happenedโ. They BELIEVE they already know. There are plenty of reasons to be suspect of the "facts" you present...
1 - they are from secondary sources that show bias... ๐๐
๐ Iโm not presenting โfactsโ. Again another misrepresentation. I first merely asked why this believer rates the Korherr report as more accurate over other sources. He had no coherent reply. And then I gave the figures from a nuetral source and a Jewish source. And now that he has seen the alternative figures โ in order to buttress the holocaust belief even further and to avoid problematical issues for his belief โ the International Red Cross AND the Jewish World Almanac must be regarded as โshowing biasโ!! ๐ฎ๐ |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 20:08:54 GMT
There are plenty of reasons to be suspect of the "facts" you present...
1 - they are from secondary sources that show bias... ๐๐
๐ Iโm not presenting โfactsโ. Again another misrepresentation. I first merely asked why this believer rates the Korherr report as more accurate over other sources. He had no coherent reply. Please explain how my reply was not coherent. The Nazis had the most accurate figures on Jewish populations in the occupied countries, because they identified and registered all Jews in each country. From that, they had very detailed population figures, as seen with Korherr, Wannsee and Hofle. How are "Stormfront" and "From the Trenches" neutral sources? That "From the Trenches" claims the Almanac is the most "authentic source" does not make it so. How is that website an authority, to determine the authenticity of the estimated world population? I checked their claim that Encyclopedia Britannica uses the Almanc and cannot find any trace of that on their website;
You have dodged the points I raised about the Almanac's use of estimates and how odd it is, for the Jewish population to barely decrease during the war years. You have found a source that suits you and you have blindly believed it without making any checks. |
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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 20:14:03 GMT
You have dodged the points I raised about the Almanac's use of estimates and how odd it is, for the Jewish population to barely decrease during the war years. You have found a source that suits you and you have blindly believed it without making any checks. The question of "where did they go" is really a fiction, a mathematic analytic a priori gesture of incompetence. The data is compiled by Zionists, edited by Zionist organizations and published by Zionists. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 20:37:17 GMT
You have dodged the points I raised about the Almanac's use of estimates and how odd it is, for the Jewish population to barely decrease during the war years. You have found a source that suits you and you have blindly believed it without making any checks. The question of "where did they go" is really a fiction, a mathematic analytic a priori gesture of incompetence. The data is compiled by Zionists, edited by Zionist organizations and published by Zionists.
There are clearly flaws with the Almanac data and interpretation. The Nazis own data is more credible and is supported by corroborating evidence, such as the Dutch archives, whereby Dutch civil servants assisted the Nazis in identifying and registering the number of Jews in the Netherlands.
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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 20:47:02 GMT
The Nazis own data is more credible and is supported by corroborating evidence, such as the Dutch archives, whereby Dutch civil servants assisted the Nazis in identifying and registering the number of Jews in the Netherlands. If you bothered to read all the information a poster quoted Korherr who said: I find it annoying that information is reposted time and time again due to an apparent inability to read what was presented. |
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Post by been_there on Jan 2, 2022 23:18:10 GMT
...I gave the figures from a neutral source and a Jewish source. [the RED CROSS and the WORLD JEWISH ALMANAC How are "Stormfront" and "From the Trenches" neutral sources? Wow! The dishonest mind-set of that reply! ๐ฎ Proof there is no possibility of reasonable discussion with this person on his holocaust belief-system. |
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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 23:54:26 GMT
Proof there is no possibility of reasonable discussion with this person on his holocaust belief-system. This is the exact reason why "white" groups like "Stormfront" have negative press; anything they said can be negated. This is of course "Gerrymandering" on a global scale. Those who do this generally have Antifa type leanings. What the poster Nessie is trying to imply is that 2.14 million Jews were not scattered across the Reich and its territories, in the Todt and Schmelt organizations and concentration camps. There were plenty of groups in private industries like Oskar Schindler portrayed; he needed his Jews to make a profit, had little to do with their health and well being. When one considers the work going on in the Channell Islands, the fortification in France, the muster of the 660 concentration camps in Poland, another 250 + in Belarus and even more in the Baltic states, I really do think there is enough room for a few million Jews. What I mentioned is just 950 camps. Those alone would give a muster of 2200 which is the normal camp muster. This is reduced significantly when the Todt and Schmelt including the Schindler type camps. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 3, 2022 8:49:38 GMT
The Nazis own data is more credible and is supported by corroborating evidence, such as the Dutch archives, whereby Dutch civil servants assisted the Nazis in identifying and registering the number of Jews in the Netherlands. If you bothered to read all the information a poster quoted Korherr who said: I find it annoying that information is reposted time and time again due to an apparent inability to read what was presented. I have searched and cannot find any time that information has been posted before now. Please justify your claim it has been posted time and time again.
How accurate the Nazi records were varied from country to country. Countries such as the Netherlands had detailed records of their population anyway and their civil service and police were cooperative with the Nazis. But, when the Dutch heard rumours of what was happening to the Jews, the underground started to bomb records offices to help hide the identity of the Jewish population. There was detailed knowledge of the Jewish population in Germany and Austria. There was far less detail in Poland and the Baltic States. But overall, the Nazis had access to records and the on the ground organisation to gather statistics, that the Jewish World Almanac did not.
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