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Post by been_there on Jan 1, 2022 20:25:47 GMT
The most accurate figures as to how many Jews were in Nazi occupied Europe is from the Korherr Report of March 1943... Why? On what basis do you make that judgement? By what criteria do you decide that is more accurate than other estimates, e.g. the Jewish World Almanacs.
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Post by Venatỏr on Jan 1, 2022 20:34:36 GMT
"These figures indicate that the Jewish population of Europe has already been reduced by 4 million. On the European continent (after Russia with c. 4 million) only Hungary (750,000, Rumania (302,000) and possibly France have large Jewish populations." Korherr admits he had issues with getting reliable statistics. Interestingly while there is a huge spike in world Jewish population numbers (see graph above); this data shows that in the 50 years from 1890-1940 the world jewish population increased 8.9 million which is about 178,000 per year. This is despite a huge number of fertile jewish males perishing in the first world war and others. Twelve thousand Jewish Males perished in Germany alone during WWI. link. This data shows that in the following 50 years from 1960-2010 the world jewish population increased a mere 1.8 million which is about 36,000 per year. This is only 20% of previous fertility rates. Korherr notices the following: Of course he is only mentioning decrepit German Jews; perhaps the rest after the first World War were breeding like flies. The other interesting point is his source of data: These are the same Jews who compiled the data for Samuel Untermeyer. Samuel Untermyer Jewish American lawyer and civic leader probably had a huge role to play in fudging data to suit zionist causes. Untermyer advocated the Zionist movement and was President of the Keren Hayesod, the agency through which the movement was then and still is conducted in the United States. In May 1933, the American League for the Defense of Jewish Rights (ALC) was founded in New York City to organize a boycott of Nazi Germany. The League was inspired by a speech by the controversial Wall Street attorney, Samuel Untermyer. Untermyer was a guest speaker at the AJC meeting. The league invited Jude Untermyer to become their President. In virtually all aspects the the AJC and the League are one and the same. Since inception, the American Jewish Year Book has documented the Jewish world and has given significant attention to Jewish population issues. This data was collected and collated by the AJC (American Jewish Council) for which the Zionist Untermyer was leader. Nothing was published without his editing and potential fudging of figures. The jews who compiled Korhers data also compiled it for Untermyer; they were in league with Untermyer during the Nazi rise to power.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 1, 2022 20:43:35 GMT
The most accurate figures as to how many Jews were in Nazi occupied Europe is from the Korherr Report of March 1943... Why? On what basis do you make that judgement? By what criteria do you decide that is more accurate than other estimates, e.g. the Jewish World Almanacs. I explained why I believe that the Nazis had the most accurate figures for the number of Jews. It is because of the Nuremberg Laws requiring the identification and registering of all Jews and the subsequent time and organisation the Nazis then put into that task. The Nazis were organised and considered the Jewish question to be a high priority policy which had a lot of resources allocated to it.
Can you link to the "Jewish World Almanac" referred to above? I cannot find it, to see how the claim of an increased population is evidenced. Instead, I get other confirmation of a decline in the Jewish population, such as;
"In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them – 9.5 million, or 57% – lived in Europe, according to DellaPergola’s estimates. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the world’s 11 million Jews. "
The original report here;
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Post by Venatỏr on Jan 1, 2022 21:29:18 GMT
"In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them – 9.5 million, or 57% – lived in Europe, according to DellaPergola’s estimates. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the world’s 11 million Jews. " The number of jews is only an estimate at best. It is really closer to 11 million if modern back extrapolation figures are correct. So assuming your figures are correct and the Jewish Population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million from 9.5 million, what does this mean.? The assumption Nessie is trying to get across is that these people were murdered. But could there be another story. Ulios has calculated the natural attrition by mortality of Jews during that time period here; this accounts for 1.9 million deaths over that period. That data was based on modern Phillipino mortality who live in conditions similar to ghettos etc. Add that to the 3.8 million jews left + the jews who died of natural causes ( 3.8 + 1.9 = 5.7) there remains 5.7 million Jews leaving a remaining 3.8 million to be murdered or whatever. However, this is not the end, more jews moved on. Of these 630 k jews (0.6 m) were tranported by the Russians from East Poland, Belarus etc. The people who left rises to 6.3 million jews . Added to this are the emigrations of about 0.53 million this leaves 6.8 million jews roughly untouched. These are just official emigration figures, one could easily add another 0.5 million + of people who fled; if so this gives a figure of 7.3 million leaving 2.2 million at the hands of the evil Nazis. Putting this in tabular forum European Jews (million) | Event | No. Millions | Remaining |
| 1939 |
| 9.5 | 9.5 | natural attrition | 1.90 | 7.6 | 7.6 | Soviet transports | 0.63 | 6.97 | 6.97 | Emigration | 0.53 | 6.44 | 6.44 | fleeing | 0.50 | 5.94 | 5.94 | remaining | 3.8 | 2.14 |
About 20k of these people were given special treatment (14f13) or euthanized. The remaining few million Jews were simply scatterred around Poland, Belarus, Channel Islands and the Baltic States. This is not saying that there were not mass murders but it seems unlikely. One thing for sure is that the Holocaust is NOT 6 million dead Jews. While there are compelling grounds to claim a genocide the Holocaust claims seem unfounded. How many dead jews does it take to make a Holocaust; would 2.14 million be enough?
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Post by been_there on Jan 1, 2022 23:28:41 GMT
Why? On what basis do you make that judgement? By what criteria do you decide that is more accurate than other estimates, e.g. the Jewish World Almanacs. I explained why I believe that the Nazis had the most accurate figures for the number of Jews. It is because of the Nuremberg Laws requiring the identification and registering of all Jews and the subsequent time and organisation the Nazis then put into that task. The Nazis were organised and considered the Jewish question to be a high priority policy which had a lot of resources allocated to it. Again, this is the answer of a ‘believer’ mindset. The actual answer is more likely to be that he believes it BECAUSE it confirms his pre-conceived belief-system. He doesn’t believe the Red Cross reports or the Jewish World Almanacs because to do so would cause problems for his holocaust belief. The answer, in essence is because of him being in the grip of a confirmation bias. The World Almanac series of books sometimes provided two sets of figures for the world Jewish population. One came from the AJC (American Jewish Committee), and the other is the World Almanac's own estimation. 1933 : 15,316,359 (AJC), page 419 1936 : 15,753,633, page 748 1938 : 15,748,091 (AJC), page 510 1939 : uses 1938 data1940 : 15,290,983 (AJC), page 519; 15,319,359 (Almanac), page 129 1941 : uses 1938 data1942 : 15,192,089, page 849 1943 : uses 1942 data1944 : uses 1942 data1945 : 15,688,259 (AJC), page 494; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1946 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 488; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1947 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 219; 15,690,000 (Almanac), page 748 1948 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 249; 15,753,638 (Almanac), page 849 1949 : n/a (AJC); 15,713,638 (Almanac), page 289 1950 : n/a (AJC); n/a (Almanac)In 1949, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1939 and 1947: 1949 AJC revision for 1939 : 16,643,120, page 204 1949 AJC revision for 1947 : 11,266,600, page 204 After 1949, the World Almanac discontinued providing their own estimations, instead, they only reported the numbers given by AJC. In 1950, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1948: 1950 AJC revision for 1948 : 11,373,000, page 473 So, let's brief this quickly. The last available pre-war number comes from 1938. In 1940, they somehow got a new estimation. In 1941, they use the 1938 number, not the 1940 number. In 1942, they got a new estimation, which was then used in both the 1943 and 1944 versions, until the war ended and they made a new estimation for 1945, which was then used for 1946, 1947 and 1948. In 1949, the Almanac made an estimation of their own, whereas the AJC decided to revise the 1947 number instead. 15,688,259 - 11,266,600 = 4,421,659Hmmmmm? 4,4 million missing Jews. No, that can't be right. We all knew 6 million died before the Nuremberg Trials began anyway. So what to do? Well, the AJC had a great idea! They revised the 1939 number by adding 1 million Jews. 895,029 to be precise. So: 4,421,659 + 895,029 = 5,316,688Bingo. The official Holocaust story goes that somewhere from 5,4 to 6 million Jews died. The number was predetermined and the AJC played along. Somehow they knew, 10 years later in 1949, that the 1938 and 1939 numbers were wrong. No mention of their source, no mention of their methodology used. They just changed the number. Poof. Historians will tell you the added one million Jews comes from the Wannsee Conference, where the Nazis counted 11,000,000 Jews in Europe, but it is known that this number was exaggerated by roughly two million, therefore their point is moot. The additional one million are imaginary Jews, added for the sole purpose of having more Jews killed on paper. This is one of the essential bits of the lie that six million Jews died, but as we can, it couldn't possibly be six million, but 4,4 million maximum. Now, this doesn't mean 4,4 million Jews died, because they didn't, it's just that most Jews after the war spread all over the world, took gentile names and became crypto-Jews. What's more, the AJC stopped reporting the actual number of Jews for current years, instead, they reported for two years back. Starting with 1949 when they "revised" the 1947 number, then in 1950 when they "revised" the 1948 number. They just kept "revising" the number of Jews two years back, ignoring the actual numbers. I wonder why? Here's something interesting: The 1933 World Almanac lists 682,400,000 Christians. The 1949 World Almanac lists 592,406,542 Christians. That's 89,993,458 less. The Handbook of Council of Churches in the USA from 1951 lists 15,300,000 Jews. . Source
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 9:19:31 GMT
"In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them – 9.5 million, or 57% – lived in Europe, according to DellaPergola’s estimates. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the world’s 11 million Jews. " The number of jews is only an estimate at best. It is really closer to 11 million if modern back extrapolation figures are correct. So assuming your figures are correct and the Jewish Population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million from 9.5 million, what does this mean.? The assumption Nessie is trying to get across is that these people were murdered. But could there be another story. Ulios has calculated the natural attrition by mortality of Jews during that time period here; this accounts for 1.9 million deaths over that period. That data was based on modern Phillipino mortality who live in conditions similar to ghettos etc. Add that to the 3.8 million jews left + the jews who died of natural causes ( 3.8 + 1.9 = 5.7) there remains 5.7 million Jews leaving a remaining 3.8 million to be murdered or whatever. However, this is not the end, more jews moved on. Of these 630 k jews (0.6 m) were tranported by the Russians from East Poland, Belarus etc. The people who left rises to 6.3 million jews . Added to this are the emigrations of about 0.53 million this leaves 6.8 million jews roughly untouched. These are just official emigration figures, one could easily add another 0.5 million + of people who fled; if so this gives a figure of 7.3 million leaving 2.2 million at the hands of the evil Nazis. Putting this in tabular forum European Jews (million) | Event | No. Millions | Remaining |
| 1939 |
| 9.5 | 9.5 | natural attrition | 1.90 | 7.6 | 7.6 | Soviet transports | 0.63 | 6.97 | 6.97 | Emigration | 0.53 | 6.44 | 6.44 | fleeing | 0.50 | 5.94 | 5.94 | remaining | 3.8 | 2.14 |
About 20k of these people were given special treatment (14f13) or euthanized. The remaining few million Jews were simply scatterred around Poland, Belarus, Channel Islands and the Baltic States. There is no evidence of a few million Jews being "scattered around". That number of people would need a lot of resources to transport and accommodate them, which would leave evidence of it happening. It would be evidence that the Nazis would have used to prove the allegations they murdered millions of Jews were false. Of course the murder of 2.14 million people would be a genocide and it would not be unreasonable for that genocide to be given a name, such as the Holocaust.
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Post by Venatỏr on Jan 2, 2022 9:41:51 GMT
[There is no evidence of a few million Jews being "scattered around". That number of people would need a lot of resources to transport and accommodate them, which would leave evidence of it happening. There is a huge amount of evidence that Poland. Belarus and the Baltic states were full of Jews. These people were in camps, Schmelt and Todt organizations from Riga to St Peter Port in the Channel Islands. This information was provided on the old forum. As Auschwitz had a huge number this cuts down the issue by about half. If this is just 14f13 then the number murdered or euthanized is about 20 k. If you bothered to read the definition of genocide you would understand there is no magic number; ten would be enough if the intent to destroy a group was there, perhaps a single person. I personally think if say 20k oldies were treated, involuntary euthanasia there could be a basis of a claim, though of course this Aktion applied to everyone. It is just that Jews were in a position to get more diseases for one reason or another. If this atrocious deed was the Holocaust claim then I doubt if there would be many "deniers". Even you have mentioned multiple times useless feeders being sent to their deaths. This is Aktion14F13. What could they do if a train load of typhus victims from Hungary arrived about to infect everyone? The talk of a planned policy to kill all Jews is nonsense as even you agree that the fit and healthy were safe. There were no lines of 2 thousand people heading into the Leichenkellers of Birkenau. It is possible that the near dead were thrown into the morgue to save time moving them there later.
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 9:51:41 GMT
I explained why I believe that the Nazis had the most accurate figures for the number of Jews. It is because of the Nuremberg Laws requiring the identification and registering of all Jews and the subsequent time and organisation the Nazis then put into that task. The Nazis were organised and considered the Jewish question to be a high priority policy which had a lot of resources allocated to it. Again, this is the answer of a ‘believer’ mindset. The actual answer is more likely to be that he believes it BECAUSE it confirms his pre-conceived belief-system. He doesn’t believe the Red Cross reports or the Jewish World Almanacs because to do so would cause problems for his holocaust belief. The answer, in essence is because of him being in the grip of a confirmation bias. The World Almanac series of books sometimes provided two sets of figures for the world Jewish population. One came from the AJC (American Jewish Committee), and the other is the World Almanac's own estimation. 1933 : 15,316,359 (AJC), page 419 1936 : 15,753,633, page 748 1938 : 15,748,091 (AJC), page 510 1939 : uses 1938 data1940 : 15,290,983 (AJC), page 519; 15,319,359 (Almanac), page 129 1941 : uses 1938 data1942 : 15,192,089, page 849 1943 : uses 1942 data1944 : uses 1942 data1945 : 15,688,259 (AJC), page 494; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1946 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 488; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1947 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 219; 15,690,000 (Almanac), page 748 1948 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 249; 15,753,638 (Almanac), page 849 1949 : n/a (AJC); 15,713,638 (Almanac), page 289 1950 : n/a (AJC); n/a (Almanac)In 1949, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1939 and 1947: 1949 AJC revision for 1939 : 16,643,120, page 204 1949 AJC revision for 1947 : 11,266,600, page 204 After 1949, the World Almanac discontinued providing their own estimations, instead, they only reported the numbers given by AJC. In 1950, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1948: 1950 AJC revision for 1948 : 11,373,000, page 473 So, let's brief this quickly. The last available pre-war number comes from 1938. In 1940, they somehow got a new estimation. In 1941, they use the 1938 number, not the 1940 number. In 1942, they got a new estimation, which was then used in both the 1943 and 1944 versions, until the war ended and they made a new estimation for 1945, which was then used for 1946, 1947 and 1948. In 1949, the Almanac made an estimation of their own, whereas the AJC decided to revise the 1947 number instead. 15,688,259 - 11,266,600 = 4,421,659Hmmmmm? 4,4 million missing Jews. No, that can't be right. We all knew 6 million died before the Nuremberg Trials began anyway. So what to do? Well, the AJC had a great idea! They revised the 1939 number by adding 1 million Jews. 895,029 to be precise. So: 4,421,659 + 895,029 = 5,316,688Bingo. The official Holocaust story goes that somewhere from 5,4 to 6 million Jews died. The number was predetermined and the AJC played along. Somehow they knew, 10 years later in 1949, that the 1938 and 1939 numbers were wrong. No mention of their source, no mention of their methodology used. They just changed the number. Poof. Historians will tell you the added one million Jews comes from the Wannsee Conference, where the Nazis counted 11,000,000 Jews in Europe, but it is known that this number was exaggerated by roughly two million, therefore their point is moot. The additional one million are imaginary Jews, added for the sole purpose of having more Jews killed on paper. This is one of the essential bits of the lie that six million Jews died, but as we can, it couldn't possibly be six million, but 4,4 million maximum. Now, this doesn't mean 4,4 million Jews died, because they didn't, it's just that most Jews after the war spread all over the world, took gentile names and became crypto-Jews. What's more, the AJC stopped reporting the actual number of Jews for current years, instead, they reported for two years back. Starting with 1949 when they "revised" the 1947 number, then in 1950 when they "revised" the 1948 number. They just kept "revising" the number of Jews two years back, ignoring the actual numbers. I wonder why? Here's something interesting: The 1933 World Almanac lists 682,400,000 Christians. The 1949 World Almanac lists 592,406,542 Christians. That's 89,993,458 less. The Handbook of Council of Churches in the USA from 1951 lists 15,300,000 Jews. . SourceThe problem I can see with the figures quoted is that they use old data. "1938 : 15,748,091 (AJC), page 510" That is the last use of collected data. The following data reuses that 1938 data. "1939 : uses 1938 data 1940 : 15,290,983 (AJC), page 519; 15,319,359 (Almanac), page 129 1941 : uses 1938 data 1942 : 15,192,089, page 849[/quote] Using 1938 data to 1941 means the 1941 data is old date and out of date. The 1942 data is that the population has dropped by 556,002. How did the Almanac achieve such detail during the war? Where did it get its figures from? "1943 : uses 1942 data 1944 : uses 1942 data 1945 : 15,688,259 (AJC), page 494; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1946 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 488; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1947 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 219; 15,690,000 (Almanac), page 748 1948 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 249; 15,753,638 (Almanac), page 849" The suggestion is that from 1938 to 1948, the world population of Jews increased by 5,547. How are those numbers estimated? Where has the information been gathered from? Occams Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is that the data estimates are wrong. The Almanac has simply rolled forward pre-war estimates throughout the war, the 1938 data is still being used to estimate the population in 1948. It would be better if you had a primary source to check those secondary sources, especially how the numbers were gathered.
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 10:00:27 GMT
[There is no evidence of a few million Jews being "scattered around". That number of people would need a lot of resources to transport and accommodate them, which would leave evidence of it happening. There is a huge amount of evidence that Poland. Belarus and the Baltic states were full of Jews. These people were in camps, Schmelt and Todt organizations from Riga to St Peter Port in the Channel Islands. This information was provided on the old forum. As Auschwitz had a huge number this cuts down the issue by about half. I repeatedly asked to be shown the evidence, but nothing more than secondary claims and rumours were posted. There are witnesses and documents recording huge drops in the Jewish population in the Baltic States, Poland and Belarus 1941-1944. The Soviets found empty ghettos and camps, with only a few Jews remaining in hiding, or abandoned by the Nazis as they marched west and fled. You need to produce evidence of the numbers and locations of Jews in 1945. For example, c60,000 were liberated from Bergen-Belsen (not all were Jewish). No Nazi used the euthanasia program as evidence to justify their actions. How would killing disabled people be evidence that they were not killing Jews? A euthanasia programme murdering tens of thousands of disabled people, is not evidence that millions of Jews were not also murdered, especially when so many Nazis who were involved in the euthanasia program went on to work in the AR camps.
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Post by been_there on Jan 2, 2022 10:42:27 GMT
Again, this is the answer of a ‘believer’ mindset. The actual answer is more likely to be that he believes it BECAUSE it confirms his pre-conceived belief-system. He doesn’t believe the Red Cross reports or the Jewish World Almanacs because to do so would cause problems for his holocaust belief. The answer, in essence, is because of him being in the grip of a confirmation bias. . SourceOccams Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is that the data estimates are wrong. Ha ha ha! 😅🤣😂 The believer mind-set strikes again. If primary source material fits the belief it is viewed as accurate. If it doesn’t fit but contradicts the belief-system then it must be ‘wrong’ data. 🤦♂️This again shows that for a holocaust-believer and defender the belief is considered ‘right’ no matter what evidence is discovered that refutes it. Thus we see here yet again that the starting position for judging what is acceptable ‘evidence’ is whether it confirms the pre-conceived belief or not. Debbie Lipstadt, Nick Terry, Robbie Muhlenkamp, and all the anonymous online promoters such as those at klowns share this approach. That is why I maintain the problem is psychological not historiographical. Facts don’t count here for the true-believer. They aren’t interested in analysing the TRUTH of ‘what actually happened’. They BELIEVE they already know.
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