Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 9:19:31 GMT
"In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them โ 9.5 million, or 57% โ lived in Europe, according to DellaPergolaโs estimates. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the worldโs 11 million Jews. " The number of jews is only an estimate at best. It is really closer to 11 million if modern back extrapolation figures are correct. So assuming your figures are correct and the Jewish Population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million from 9.5 million, what does this mean.? The assumption Nessie is trying to get across is that these people were murdered. But could there be another story. Ulios has calculated the natural attrition by mortality of Jews during that time period here; this accounts for 1.9 million deaths over that period. That data was based on modern Phillipino mortality who live in conditions similar to ghettos etc. Add that to the 3.8 million jews left + the jews who died of natural causes ( 3.8 + 1.9 = 5.7) there remains 5.7 million Jews leaving a remaining 3.8 million to be murdered or whatever. However, this is not the end, more jews moved on. Of these 630 k jews (0.6 m) were tranported by the Russians from East Poland, Belarus etc. The people who left rises to 6.3 million jews . Added to this are the emigrations of about 0.53 million this leaves 6.8 million jews roughly untouched. These are just official emigration figures, one could easily add another 0.5 million + of people who fled; if so this gives a figure of 7.3 million leaving 2.2 million at the hands of the evil Nazis. Putting this in tabular forum European Jews
(million) | Event | No. Millions | Remaining |
| 1939 |
| 9.5 | | 9.5 | natural attrition | 1.90 | 7.6 | | 7.6 | Soviet transports | 0.63 | 6.97 | | 6.97 | Emigration | 0.53 | 6.44 | | 6.44 | fleeing | 0.50 | 5.94 | | 5.94 | remaining | 3.8 | 2.14 |
About 20k of these people were given special treatment (14f13) or euthanized. The remaining few million Jews were simply scatterred around Poland, Belarus, Channel Islands and the Baltic States. There is no evidence of a few million Jews being "scattered around". That number of people would need a lot of resources to transport and accommodate them, which would leave evidence of it happening. It would be evidence that the Nazis would have used to prove the allegations they murdered millions of Jews were false. Of course the murder of 2.14 million people would be a genocide and it would not be unreasonable for that genocide to be given a name, such as the Holocaust. |
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Venatแปr
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Post by Venatแปr on Jan 2, 2022 9:41:51 GMT
[There is no evidence of a few million Jews being "scattered around". That number of people would need a lot of resources to transport and accommodate them, which would leave evidence of it happening. There is a huge amount of evidence that Poland. Belarus and the Baltic states were full of Jews. These people were in camps, Schmelt and Todt organizations from Riga to St Peter Port in the Channel Islands. This information was provided on the old forum. As Auschwitz had a huge number this cuts down the issue by about half. If this is just 14f13 then the number murdered or euthanized is about 20 k. If you bothered to read the definition of genocide you would understand there is no magic number; ten would be enough if the intent to destroy a group was there, perhaps a single person. I personally think if say 20k oldies were treated, involuntary euthanasia there could be a basis of a claim, though of course this Aktion applied to everyone. It is just that Jews were in a position to get more diseases for one reason or another. If this atrocious deed was the Holocaust claim then I doubt if there would be many "deniers". Even you have mentioned multiple times useless feeders being sent to their deaths. This is Aktion14F13. What could they do if a train load of typhus victims from Hungary arrived about to infect everyone? The talk of a planned policy to kill all Jews is nonsense as even you agree that the fit and healthy were safe. There were no lines of 2 thousand people heading into the Leichenkellers of Birkenau. It is possible that the near dead were thrown into the morgue to save time moving them there later. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 9:51:41 GMT
I explained why I believe that the Nazis had the most accurate figures for the number of Jews.
It is because of the Nuremberg Laws requiring the identification and registering of all Jews and the subsequent time and organisation the Nazis then put into that task. The Nazis were organised and considered the Jewish question to be a high priority policy which had a lot of resources allocated to it. Again, this is the answer of a โbelieverโ mindset. The actual answer is more likely to be that he believes it BECAUSE it confirms his pre-conceived belief-system. He doesnโt believe the Red Cross reports or the Jewish World Almanacs because to do so would cause problems for his holocaust belief. The answer, in essence is because of him being in the grip of a confirmation bias. The World Almanac series of books sometimes provided two sets of figures for the world Jewish population. One came from the AJC (American Jewish Committee), and the other is the World Almanac's own estimation. 1933 : 15,316,359 (AJC), page 419 1936 : 15,753,633, page 748 1938 : 15,748,091 (AJC), page 510 1939 : uses 1938 data1940 : 15,290,983 (AJC), page 519; 15,319,359 (Almanac), page 129 1941 : uses 1938 data1942 : 15,192,089, page 849 1943 : uses 1942 data1944 : uses 1942 data1945 : 15,688,259 (AJC), page 494; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1946 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 488; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1947 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 219; 15,690,000 (Almanac), page 748 1948 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 249; 15,753,638 (Almanac), page 849 1949 : n/a (AJC); 15,713,638 (Almanac), page 289 1950 : n/a (AJC); n/a (Almanac)In 1949, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1939 and 1947: 1949 AJC revision for 1939 : 16,643,120, page 204 1949 AJC revision for 1947 : 11,266,600, page 204 After 1949, the World Almanac discontinued providing their own estimations, instead, they only reported the numbers given by AJC. In 1950, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1948: 1950 AJC revision for 1948 : 11,373,000, page 473 So, let's brief this quickly. The last available pre-war number comes from 1938. In 1940, they somehow got a new estimation. In 1941, they use the 1938 number, not the 1940 number. In 1942, they got a new estimation, which was then used in both the 1943 and 1944 versions, until the war ended and they made a new estimation for 1945, which was then used for 1946, 1947 and 1948. In 1949, the Almanac made an estimation of their own, whereas the AJC decided to revise the 1947 number instead. 15,688,259 - 11,266,600 = 4,421,659Hmmmmm? 4,4 million missing Jews. No, that can't be right. We all knew 6 million died before the Nuremberg Trials began anyway. So what to do? Well, the AJC had a great idea! They revised the 1939 number by adding 1 million Jews. 895,029 to be precise. So: 4,421,659 + 895,029 = 5,316,688Bingo. The official Holocaust story goes that somewhere from 5,4 to 6 million Jews died. The number was predetermined and the AJC played along. Somehow they knew, 10 years later in 1949, that the 1938 and 1939 numbers were wrong. No mention of their source, no mention of their methodology used. They just changed the number. Poof. Historians will tell you the added one million Jews comes from the Wannsee Conference, where the Nazis counted 11,000,000 Jews in Europe, but it is known that this number was exaggerated by roughly two million, therefore their point is moot. The additional one million are imaginary Jews, added for the sole purpose of having more Jews killed on paper. This is one of the essential bits of the lie that six million Jews died, but as we can, it couldn't possibly be six million, but 4,4 million maximum. Now, this doesn't mean 4,4 million Jews died, because they didn't, it's just that most Jews after the war spread all over the world, took gentile names and became crypto-Jews. What's more, the AJC stopped reporting the actual number of Jews for current years, instead, they reported for two years back. Starting with 1949 when they "revised" the 1947 number, then in 1950 when they "revised" the 1948 number. They just kept "revising" the number of Jews two years back, ignoring the actual numbers. I wonder why? Here's something interesting: The 1933 World Almanac lists 682,400,000 Christians. The 1949 World Almanac lists 592,406,542 Christians. That's 89,993,458 less. The Handbook of Council of Churches in the USA from 1951 lists 15,300,000 Jews. . SourceThe problem I can see with the figures quoted is that they use old data. "1938 : 15,748,091 (AJC), page 510" That is the last use of collected data. The following data reuses that 1938 data. "1939 : uses 1938 data 1940 : 15,290,983 (AJC), page 519; 15,319,359 (Almanac), page 129 1941 : uses 1938 data 1942 : 15,192,089, page 849[/quote] Using 1938 data to 1941 means the 1941 data is old date and out of date. The 1942 data is that the population has dropped by 556,002. How did the Almanac achieve such detail during the war? Where did it get its figures from? "1943 : uses 1942 data 1944 : uses 1942 data 1945 : 15,688,259 (AJC), page 494; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1946 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 488; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1947 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 219; 15,690,000 (Almanac), page 748 1948 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 249; 15,753,638 (Almanac), page 849" The suggestion is that from 1938 to 1948, the world population of Jews increased by 5,547. How are those numbers estimated? Where has the information been gathered from? Occams Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is that the data estimates are wrong. The Almanac has simply rolled forward pre-war estimates throughout the war, the 1938 data is still being used to estimate the population in 1948. It would be better if you had a primary source to check those secondary sources, especially how the numbers were gathered. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 10:00:27 GMT
[There is no evidence of a few million Jews being "scattered around". That number of people would need a lot of resources to transport and accommodate them, which would leave evidence of it happening. There is a huge amount of evidence that Poland. Belarus and the Baltic states were full of Jews. These people were in camps, Schmelt and Todt organizations from Riga to St Peter Port in the Channel Islands. This information was provided on the old forum. As Auschwitz had a huge number this cuts down the issue by about half. I repeatedly asked to be shown the evidence, but nothing more than secondary claims and rumours were posted. There are witnesses and documents recording huge drops in the Jewish population in the Baltic States, Poland and Belarus 1941-1944. The Soviets found empty ghettos and camps, with only a few Jews remaining in hiding, or abandoned by the Nazis as they marched west and fled. You need to produce evidence of the numbers and locations of Jews in 1945. For example, c60,000 were liberated from Bergen-Belsen (not all were Jewish). No Nazi used the euthanasia program as evidence to justify their actions. How would killing disabled people be evidence that they were not killing Jews? A euthanasia programme murdering tens of thousands of disabled people, is not evidence that millions of Jews were not also murdered, especially when so many Nazis who were involved in the euthanasia program went on to work in the AR camps. |
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Post by been_there on Jan 2, 2022 10:42:27 GMT
Again, this is the answer of a โbelieverโ mindset. The actual answer is more likely to be that he believes it BECAUSE it confirms his pre-conceived belief-system. He doesnโt believe the Red Cross reports or the Jewish World Almanacs because to do so would cause problems for his holocaust belief. The answer, in essence, is because of him being in the grip of a confirmation bias. . SourceOccams Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is that the data estimates are wrong. Ha ha ha! ๐
๐คฃ๐ The believer mind-set strikes again. If primary source material fits the belief it is viewed as accurate. If it doesnโt fit but contradicts the belief-system then it must be โwrongโ data. ๐คฆโโ๏ธThis again shows that for a holocaust-believer and defender the belief is considered โrightโ no matter what evidence is discovered that refutes it. Thus we see here yet again that the starting position for judging what is acceptable โevidenceโ is whether it confirms the pre-conceived belief or not. Debbie Lipstadt, Nick Terry, Robbie Muhlenkamp, and all the anonymous online promoters such as those at klowns share this approach. That is why I maintain the problem is psychological not historiographical. Facts donโt count here for the true-believer. They arenโt interested in analysing the TRUTH of โwhat actually happenedโ. They BELIEVE they already know. |
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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 10:49:21 GMT
Occams Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is that the data estimates are wrong. Ha ha ha! ๐
๐คฃ๐ The believer mind-set strikes again. If primary source material fits the belief it is viewed as accurate. If it doesnโt fit but contradicts the belief-system then it must be โwrongโ data. Facts donโt count here for the true-believer. They arenโt interested in analysing the TRUTH of โwhat actually happenedโ. They BELIEVE they already know. It begs the question of how they "know"; they actually think they know, but know very little. Their intent is to promulgate their belief system to the masses in the disguise of learned men. Wolf in sheeps attire indeed. Nessie claims he wishes to know what happened but starts with the premise he knows already. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 13:50:19 GMT
Occams Razor tells us that the simplest explanation is that the data estimates are wrong. Ha ha ha! ๐
๐คฃ๐ The believer mind-set strikes again. If primary source material fits the belief it is viewed as accurate. If it doesnโt fit but contradicts the belief-system then it must be โwrongโ data. ๐คฆโโ๏ธThis again shows that for a holocaust-believer and defender the belief is considered โrightโ no matter what evidence is discovered that refutes it. Thus we see here yet again that the starting position for judging what is acceptable โevidenceโ is whether it confirms the pre-conceived belief or not. Debbie Lipstadt, Nick Terry, Robbie Muhlenkamp, and all the anonymous online promoters such as those at klowns share this approach. That is why I maintain the problem is psychological not historiographical. Facts donโt count here for the true-believer. They arenโt interested in analysing the TRUTH of โwhat actually happenedโ. They BELIEVE they already know. There are plenty of reasons to be suspect of the "facts" you present. If you were open-minded, you would agree.
1 - they are from secondary sources that show bias 2 - they offer no links to the primary source, they only provide short quotes with no context and then give their opinion. 3 - on the face of it, estimates that the Jewish population hardly declined during WWII are odd, considering there was a war on and how Jews were generally treated by the Nazis.
4 - the figures are estimates, the sources show they are based on a pre-war estimate in 1938.
"The figures listed for 1941, 1947, and 1948 are identified as estimates made in 1938. The source for the estimate for 1944 is not given."
"In 1949, however, the World Almanac gives a revised 1939 population of 16,643,120 giving a difference of between 1938 and 1947 of 5,376,520."
Because you think the Almanac gives information you want to believe, you have not bothered to check if it is correct or not. You have unquestionably assumed it is correct and you have failed to analyse the data it has produced.
You have also failed to think through your allegation to its logical conclusion. If the Jewish population in Europe in WWII had barely declined, as the almanac suggests, then in 1944-5, millions of Jews would be returning to their homes, from Riga, to Warsaw, Budapest, Berlin, Amsterdam and Paris. The Allies would have been liberating so many Jews, they could hardly cope.
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Post by been_there on Jan 2, 2022 17:38:06 GMT
Ha ha ha! ๐
๐คฃ๐ The believer mind-set strikes again. If primary source material fits the belief it is viewed as accurate. If it doesnโt fit but contradicts the belief-system then it must be โwrongโ data. ๐คฆโโ๏ธThis again shows that for a holocaust-believer and defender the belief is considered โrightโ no matter what evidence is discovered that refutes it. Thus we see here yet again that the starting position for judging what is acceptable โevidenceโ is whether it confirms the pre-conceived belief or not. Debbie Lipstadt, Nick Terry, Robbie Muhlenkamp, and all the anonymous online promoters such as those at klowns share this approach. That is why I maintain the problem is psychological not historiographical. Facts donโt count here for the true-believer. They arenโt interested in analysing the TRUTH of โwhat actually happenedโ. They BELIEVE they already know. There are plenty of reasons to be suspect of the "facts" you present...
1 - they are from secondary sources that show bias... ๐๐
๐ Iโm not presenting โfactsโ. Again another misrepresentation. I first merely asked why this believer rates the Korherr report as more accurate over other sources. He had no coherent reply. And then I gave the figures from a nuetral source and a Jewish source. And now that he has seen the alternative figures โ in order to buttress the holocaust belief even further and to avoid problematical issues for his belief โ the International Red Cross AND the Jewish World Almanac must be regarded as โshowing biasโ!! ๐ฎ๐ |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 20:08:54 GMT
There are plenty of reasons to be suspect of the "facts" you present...
1 - they are from secondary sources that show bias... ๐๐
๐ Iโm not presenting โfactsโ. Again another misrepresentation. I first merely asked why this believer rates the Korherr report as more accurate over other sources. He had no coherent reply. Please explain how my reply was not coherent. The Nazis had the most accurate figures on Jewish populations in the occupied countries, because they identified and registered all Jews in each country. From that, they had very detailed population figures, as seen with Korherr, Wannsee and Hofle. How are "Stormfront" and "From the Trenches" neutral sources? That "From the Trenches" claims the Almanac is the most "authentic source" does not make it so. How is that website an authority, to determine the authenticity of the estimated world population? I checked their claim that Encyclopedia Britannica uses the Almanc and cannot find any trace of that on their website;
You have dodged the points I raised about the Almanac's use of estimates and how odd it is, for the Jewish population to barely decrease during the war years. You have found a source that suits you and you have blindly believed it without making any checks. |
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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 20:14:03 GMT
You have dodged the points I raised about the Almanac's use of estimates and how odd it is, for the Jewish population to barely decrease during the war years. You have found a source that suits you and you have blindly believed it without making any checks. The question of "where did they go" is really a fiction, a mathematic analytic a priori gesture of incompetence. The data is compiled by Zionists, edited by Zionist organizations and published by Zionists. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 2, 2022 20:37:17 GMT
You have dodged the points I raised about the Almanac's use of estimates and how odd it is, for the Jewish population to barely decrease during the war years. You have found a source that suits you and you have blindly believed it without making any checks. The question of "where did they go" is really a fiction, a mathematic analytic a priori gesture of incompetence. The data is compiled by Zionists, edited by Zionist organizations and published by Zionists.
There are clearly flaws with the Almanac data and interpretation. The Nazis own data is more credible and is supported by corroborating evidence, such as the Dutch archives, whereby Dutch civil servants assisted the Nazis in identifying and registering the number of Jews in the Netherlands.
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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 20:47:02 GMT
The Nazis own data is more credible and is supported by corroborating evidence, such as the Dutch archives, whereby Dutch civil servants assisted the Nazis in identifying and registering the number of Jews in the Netherlands. If you bothered to read all the information a poster quoted Korherr who said: I find it annoying that information is reposted time and time again due to an apparent inability to read what was presented. |
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Post by been_there on Jan 2, 2022 23:18:10 GMT
...I gave the figures from a neutral source and a Jewish source. [the RED CROSS and the WORLD JEWISH ALMANAC How are "Stormfront" and "From the Trenches" neutral sources? Wow! The dishonest mind-set of that reply! ๐ฎ Proof there is no possibility of reasonable discussion with this person on his holocaust belief-system. |
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Post by Ulios on Jan 2, 2022 23:54:26 GMT
Proof there is no possibility of reasonable discussion with this person on his holocaust belief-system. This is the exact reason why "white" groups like "Stormfront" have negative press; anything they said can be negated. This is of course "Gerrymandering" on a global scale. Those who do this generally have Antifa type leanings. What the poster Nessie is trying to imply is that 2.14 million Jews were not scattered across the Reich and its territories, in the Todt and Schmelt organizations and concentration camps. There were plenty of groups in private industries like Oskar Schindler portrayed; he needed his Jews to make a profit, had little to do with their health and well being. When one considers the work going on in the Channell Islands, the fortification in France, the muster of the 660 concentration camps in Poland, another 250 + in Belarus and even more in the Baltic states, I really do think there is enough room for a few million Jews. What I mentioned is just 950 camps. Those alone would give a muster of 2200 which is the normal camp muster. This is reduced significantly when the Todt and Schmelt including the Schindler type camps. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 3, 2022 8:49:38 GMT
The Nazis own data is more credible and is supported by corroborating evidence, such as the Dutch archives, whereby Dutch civil servants assisted the Nazis in identifying and registering the number of Jews in the Netherlands. If you bothered to read all the information a poster quoted Korherr who said: I find it annoying that information is reposted time and time again due to an apparent inability to read what was presented. I have searched and cannot find any time that information has been posted before now. Please justify your claim it has been posted time and time again.
How accurate the Nazi records were varied from country to country. Countries such as the Netherlands had detailed records of their population anyway and their civil service and police were cooperative with the Nazis. But, when the Dutch heard rumours of what was happening to the Jews, the underground started to bomb records offices to help hide the identity of the Jewish population. There was detailed knowledge of the Jewish population in Germany and Austria. There was far less detail in Poland and the Baltic States. But overall, the Nazis had access to records and the on the ground organisation to gather statistics, that the Jewish World Almanac did not.
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