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Post by ๐๐ฅ๐๐๐ณ๐ง๐จ๐๐ซ on Oct 27, 2021 9:01:54 GMT
Discuss where the Jews of Europa who survived went, during those turbulent times pf WWII. The movement of people implies culture. There were a few stories told, some fabricated, but there were true stories of human ingenuity and heroism,
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Post by Hรผntinger on Oct 28, 2021 6:35:47 GMT
There are many stories of these people heading from the Russian East down through the Crimea into the Balkans. More details to come.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 6, 2021 14:45:10 GMT
If revisionism was correct, in 1945 the Allies would have been liberating millions of Jews. Instead, the Soviets found mostly empty camps and ghettos and the largest camp the Western Allies liberated was Bergen-Belsen with c60,000 prisoners, not all of whom were Jewish.
Listening to many revisionist claims, there is a chronological gap between them being rounded up and sent to camps and ghettos in 1941-4 with the last transports arriving at A-B in autumn 1944 as the Lodz ghetto was closed down, leaving no ghettos open. The suggestion that after the war the Jews just went where they went, misses a gap of nearly a year, 1944-5, which for the AR camps is more like 2 years, 1943-5, where there is no evidence of what happened to the millions of registered Jews who had been sent to camps and ghettos.
Those were Jews in Nazi custody, unlike the Jews who fled east further into the SU from the moment Poland was invaded, and accelerating in 1941 when the Nazis attacked the SU.
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Post by ๐๐จ๐๐๐ซ๐๐ญ๐จ๐ซ on Nov 7, 2021 0:51:08 GMT
If revisionism was correct, in 1945 the Allies would have there is no evidence of what happened to the millions of registered Jews who had been sent to camps and ghettos. Those were Jews in Nazi custody, unlike the Jews who fled east further into the SU from the moment Poland was invaded, and accelerating in 1941 when the Nazis attacked the SU. Revisionism can never be correct, nothing has total certainty; "revisionism" is not a doctrine but an action. Finding the reality, will dignify the fate of those who perished more than a fictitious story could ever do. It was mentioned in another post by myself that the term Holocaust โ Genocide; the term Holocaust appears to be more equitable to "Genocide with benefits". The term โHolocaustโ came into common after the airing on NBC four-part fictional miniseries on the subject called โHolocaustโ in 1978; this became the template for future "historical" thinking. This is where fiction created reality. On this basis it appears that the Holocaust proponents are the "revisionists" as the truth lies in real history. The Nazi trials at Nรผrnberg may paint a more realistic picture, despite the obvious shortcomings. Count three of the Nuremberg trials was titled "Crimes against Humanity"; there was no mention of either jews or holocaust; genocide was however, implied, albeit not stated. Crimes against Humanity (article 6c Hague conventions) was defined as: This definition fits in well with the definition of Genocide as defined by its proponents at a similar time. Nowhere in the Nuremberg trials is the term Holocaust used, though the crimes do reflect the requirements of a genocide. There is no doubt that many Semitic people died in the "Russian East" (hundreds of thousands) which is synonymous with Ostland, especially in the Baltic states. People were living in cardboard shacks with virtually no heating during winter. Ostland had some 600 camps to cater for a large Semitic population; 260 of these were in Belarus, at least according to the Belarus Minister of Foreign affairs V.Makei (2021) who said: While some of the incarcerated returned to Poland as evidenced by the Bobruysk returnees, station master Zabecki himself reports thousands returning from Bialystok bypassing Malkinia and Treblinka heading straight to Warsaw. Others from Latvia end up returning via Stutthof. There is much evidence that people fled the camps long before Liberation by whatever, army; who remained behind were those too ill to flee. Obviously this was after the German guards scarpered. The AR camps inmates rebelled with many escaping; how many more rebellions and fleeing prisoners is unknown. Many Jews were never caught but changed their identities, some living in sewer systems forming rebel armies with some half a million soldiers, many jews. In Belarus many jews were part of the Partisan groups supported by the Red Army. Many sadly perished in the harsh conditions of the northern winters, promoted by lack of nutritious food, medicine and other essentials of health. Five Hundred children died of a measles epidemic, mainly jews; adults were sick and died of typhus and a host of other diseases. |
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Post by ๐๐จ๐๐๐ซ๐๐ญ๐จ๐ซ on Nov 7, 2021 0:52:43 GMT
Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic
To discuss the dissolution of judentum during WWII and afterwards, the population figures in Belarus must be considered. The author of The War Against the Jews(Lucy Dawidowicz) estimated that 66% of the Jews residing in Byelorussian SSR died during the conflagration; In her work the assumption is that the people in question were mostly murdered. Lucy S. Dawidowicz was an American-Jewish historian; she died in 1990; Due to an obvious clash of interest like most Holocaust writers her work must be considered with caution due to obvious potential bias. Lucy Dawidowicz claims that out of 375,000 Jews, 247,500 perished (66%), leaving a mere 127,500. However, other information, from the US Department of State give the following information ( JUST Act Report: Belarus) Due to a population loss the assumption was that people had been killed, what was not known at the time was the extent of Soviet Deportations from Poland and Belarus to the Soviet Interior; these deportations accounted for millions of civilians, jews caught up in the route. Hundreds of thousands also died in the transports to Siberia while in the Soviet sphere of influence. While 220 thousand jews might have been transported from Eastern Belarus there were also hundreds of thousands from Poland, East of the Bug river. This was prior to Barbarossa during the Soviet annexation of Western Poland. For some reason some people are not the slightest interested in the fate of these people, people whose lives are as important as those who are claimed to be victims of some Nazi genocide. This post is not to discuss the alleged Nazi genocide (which by definition is experiencing anguish, mental harm and suffering), but to discuss the transports and pain the dispossessed experienced on their journey to the Russian East at the hands of Stalin's forces. From here it is possible to discuss the future of this diaspora. |
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Post by Nessie on Dec 8, 2021 18:55:36 GMT
In this thread, Turnagain made the claim; rodoh.info/post/1494/thread"Millions of people were displaced by the war." That is true. We know it is true, because of the evidence, from witnesses and documents, of such displacements. For example, we know many ethnic Germans were driven back to Germany from Poland at the end of the war. We know that many people fled further east into Soviet occupied territory to flee the Nazis and then vice versa, as the Soviets advanced, many fled west. We know that many Jews fled occupied Europe, such as the Danish Jews who escaped to neutral Sweden in 1943. Indeed, we know a lot about the displacement of Jews, because the Nazis registered and rounded them up to live in camps and ghettos. We know that in cities all over eastern Europe, ghettos were set up and the local Jews were displaced and moved into those ghettos. We know that the Dutch and French Jews were rounded up and sent to Westerbork and Drancy transit camps. We know that in in 1943, the Dutch Jews were sent to Sobibor 1944, the Hungarians Jews were rounded up and most sent to A-B. We know that because of the evidence, from Nazi documents and witnesses. There is one exception to that. Once the Jews arrived at Sobibor, TII, Belzec, Chelmno or A-B, for most of them, the evidential trail ends. For some it continues and we know they went to labour camps. We can then trace them, thanks to Nazi records, and know if they died in the camps, or lived and were liberated. The rest just vanish for the records and there is no witness evidence as to what happened to them next. Revisionists do not find that suspicious. |
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 13, 2021 0:05:07 GMT
We know that many Jews fled occupied Europe, such as the Danish Jews who escaped to neutral Sweden in 1943. Indeed, we know a lot about the displacement of Jews, because the Nazis registered and rounded them up to live in camps and ghettos. We know that in cities all over eastern Europe, ghettos were set up and the local Jews were displaced and moved into those ghettos. We know that the Dutch and French Jews were rounded up and sent to Westerbork and Drancy transit camps. We know that in in 1943, the Dutch Jews were sent to Sobibor 1944, the Hungarians Jews were rounded up and most sent to A-B. Much of this post has little to do with the topic of the Jewish diaspora during those times. Most of the camps in Ostland are unknown even today, only a few mentioned on a regular basis. The Holocaust Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Belarus, Vladimir Makei made brief mention of the number of judenlager in Belarus Ostland during those dark times: One such camp was Bobruysk; the first transport to Bobruysk camp was in may before Treblinka II opened, consisting of about one thousand youths. It was the first mass transport from the Warsaw ghetto. This transport is never mentioned; the following is what school children read when investigating the transports: USHMM has this to say Wiki says: There was a second transport from Warsaw to Bobruysk leaving at the end of July 1942: The Warsaw Judenrat, July 1942 (Head of the Warsaw Judenrat, July 1942 (YVA, O. 51/143)) says: Not one of the sources above mention that these thousands of young men did not meet their fate at Treblinka as claimed. It begs the question why they have not bothered to do further research before making broad claims of mass murder. While others may have been murdered in the gas chambers of Treblinka these 2500 people were not. The Einsatzgruppen did deal with a good number of Belarussian Jews, all considered as partisans (right or wrong is not the issue here) so those 260+ camps mentioned by the foreign Minister Makei were filled up with jews from somewhere. There were a similar number of camps in the Baltic states as well, many now unknown. Each concentration camp holds an average of 2,000 souls so 520 camps would cater for 1.1 million people or more. |
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Post by Nessie on Dec 13, 2021 12:27:07 GMT
That the Soviets found mostly abandoned, empty or only small groups of Jews in the camps and ghettos set up by the Nazis, is part of the evidence those Jews were not resettled in the east. That, post war, few, if any Jews returned to Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Belorussia to reclaim property is also part of the evidence. According to revisionism, c2.5 million people were not gassed, 1941 to 1944, so they had to have been accommodated somewhere until the end of the war in 1945.
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Post by Sandhurst on Jan 1, 2022 19:04:49 GMT
That the Soviets found mostly abandoned, empty or only small groups of Jews in the camps and ghettos set up by the Nazis, is part of the evidence those Jews were not resettled in the east. That, post war, few, if any Jews returned to Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Belorussia to reclaim property is also part of the evidence. According to revisionism, c2.5 million people were not gassed, 1941 to 1944, so they had to have been accommodated somewhere until the end of the war in 1945. Docteur de l'universite de Paris The Professor states that most of the Jews fled Europe towards the "free zones". The information supplied by another member with a graphical description of the worlds Jewish Population extrapolated back over times, does show an interesting spike not found in any other population of ethnicities.  World Jewish population showing spikeThis implies that the "missing" people never existed but as the Proffessor states an "arithmetic". Of course one cannot count Jews unless it is in their interest to do so. A real census is not possible. Korherr has this to say about the population: Korherr continues to speak of emigration: He then continues to say that 1,873,549 Jews were kicked out including those whose lives were terminated due to euthanazia (14f13) aka "special treatment"; 1.4 million went East (up to Jan 43), though many returned as evidenced from the Bobruysk survivors and those from the Kaiswerwald returning through Stutthof. Typhus was rife and many perished as well. There was no permanent resettlement in the East but stays of temporary and varying duration. Korherr states that the evacuation numbers: He goes on to add: Korherr put 633,300 Jews: He is seemingly unaware of the mass deportations of Jews included with the 2 million evactuated in Eastern Poland and the Baltic States including Belarus by the Soviets. How could Korherr get the information of evacuations East unless there were statistical collection points. These of course were some "border' camps of the Reich designated as L,B,S,T; these all coincide with customs offices Litzmannstadt, Belzec, Sobibor (Wlodawa) Malkinia (Treblinka) and also the site of camps run by the SS (not the concentration camp death heads units); there is continued discussion about the purpose of these camps outside of the concentration camp system. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 1, 2022 19:43:48 GMT
The most accurate figures as to how many Jews were in Nazi occupied Europe is from the Korherr Report of March 1943, since the Nazis went into great detail and lengths to identify and register all Jews under the Nuremberg Laws. www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/korherr.html"The Statistische Reichsamt (German Bureau of Statistics) estimated the total Jewish population of the world at 17 million in 1937." "In 1937 10.3 million (60%) were living in Europe and 5.1 million (30%) in America." "The Jewish population of the extended German Reich was reduced by 3.1 million between 1933 and 1943 under the leadership of National Socialism." "These figures indicate that the Jewish population of Europe has already been reduced by 4 million. On the European continent (after Russia with c. 4 million) only Hungary (750,000, Rumania (302,000) and possibly France have large Jewish populations." |
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Post by been_there on Jan 1, 2022 20:25:47 GMT
The most accurate figures as to how many Jews were in Nazi occupied Europe is from the Korherr Report of March 1943... Why? On what basis do you make that judgement? By what criteria do you decide that is more accurate than other estimates, e.g. the Jewish World Almanacs. |
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Post by Sandhurst on Jan 1, 2022 20:34:36 GMT
"These figures indicate that the Jewish population of Europe has already been reduced by 4 million. On the European continent (after Russia with c. 4 million) only Hungary (750,000, Rumania (302,000) and possibly France have large Jewish populations." Korherr admits he had issues with getting reliable statistics. Interestingly while there is a huge spike in world Jewish population numbers (see graph above); this data shows that in the 50 years from 1890-1940 the world jewish population increased 8.9 million which is about 178,000 per year. This is despite a huge number of fertile jewish males perishing in the first world war and others. Twelve thousand Jewish Males perished in Germany alone during WWI. link. This data shows that in the following 50 years from 1960-2010 the world jewish population increased a mere 1.8 million which is about 36,000 per year. This is only 20% of previous fertility rates. Korherr notices the following: Of course he is only mentioning decrepit German Jews; perhaps the rest after the first World War were breeding like flies. The other interesting point is his source of data: These are the same Jews who compiled the data for Samuel Untermeyer. Samuel Untermyer Jewish American lawyer and civic leader probably had a huge role to play in fudging data to suit zionist causes. Untermyer advocated the Zionist movement and was President of the Keren Hayesod, the agency through which the movement was then and still is conducted in the United States. In May 1933, the American League for the Defense of Jewish Rights (ALC) was founded in New York City to organize a boycott of Nazi Germany. The League was inspired by a speech by the controversial Wall Street attorney, Samuel Untermyer. Untermyer was a guest speaker at the AJC meeting. The league invited Jude Untermyer to become their President. In virtually all aspects the the AJC and the League are one and the same. Since inception, the American Jewish Year Book has documented the Jewish world and has given significant attention to Jewish population issues. This data was collected and collated by the AJC (American Jewish Council) for which the Zionist Untermyer was leader. Nothing was published without his editing and potential fudging of figures. The jews who compiled Korhers data also compiled it for Untermyer; they were in league with Untermyer during the Nazi rise to power. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 1, 2022 20:43:35 GMT
The most accurate figures as to how many Jews were in Nazi occupied Europe is from the Korherr Report of March 1943... Why? On what basis do you make that judgement? By what criteria do you decide that is more accurate than other estimates, e.g. the Jewish World Almanacs. I explained why I believe that the Nazis had the most accurate figures for the number of Jews. It is because of the Nuremberg Laws requiring the identification and registering of all Jews and the subsequent time and organisation the Nazis then put into that task. The Nazis were organised and considered the Jewish question to be a high priority policy which had a lot of resources allocated to it.
Can you link to the "Jewish World Almanac" referred to above? I cannot find it, to see how the claim of an increased population is evidenced. Instead, I get other confirmation of a decline in the Jewish population, such as;
"In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them โ 9.5 million, or 57% โ lived in Europe, according to DellaPergolaโs estimates. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the worldโs 11 million Jews. "
The original report here;
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Post by Sandhurst on Jan 1, 2022 21:29:18 GMT
"In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them โ 9.5 million, or 57% โ lived in Europe, according to DellaPergolaโs estimates. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the worldโs 11 million Jews. " The number of jews is only an estimate at best. It is really closer to 11 million if modern back extrapolation figures are correct. So assuming your figures are correct and the Jewish Population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million from 9.5 million, what does this mean.? The assumption Nessie is trying to get across is that these people were murdered. But could there be another story. Ulios has calculated the natural attrition by mortality of Jews during that time period here; this accounts for 1.9 million deaths over that period. That data was based on modern Phillipino mortality who live in conditions similar to ghettos etc. Add that to the 3.8 million jews left + the jews who died of natural causes ( 3.8 + 1.9 = 5.7) there remains 5.7 million Jews leaving a remaining 3.8 million to be murdered or whatever. However, this is not the end, more jews moved on. Of these 630 k jews (0.6 m) were tranported by the Russians from East Poland, Belarus etc. The people who left rises to 6.3 million jews . Added to this are the emigrations of about 0.53 million this leaves 6.8 million jews roughly untouched. These are just official emigration figures, one could easily add another 0.5 million + of people who fled; if so this gives a figure of 7.3 million leaving 2.2 million at the hands of the evil Nazis. Putting this in tabular forum European Jews
(million) | Event | No. Millions | Remaining |
| 1939 |
| 9.5 | | 9.5 | natural attrition | 1.90 | 7.6 | | 7.6 | Soviet transports | 0.63 | 6.97 | | 6.97 | Emigration | 0.53 | 6.44 | | 6.44 | fleeing | 0.50 | 5.94 | | 5.94 | remaining | 3.8 | 2.14 |
About 20k of these people were given special treatment (14f13) or euthanized. The remaining few million Jews were simply scatterred around Poland, Belarus, Channel Islands and the Baltic States. This is not saying that there were not mass murders but it seems unlikely. One thing for sure is that the Holocaust is NOT 6 million dead Jews. While there are compelling grounds to claim a genocide the Holocaust claims seem unfounded. How many dead jews does it take to make a Holocaust; would 2.14 million be enough? |
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Post by been_there on Jan 1, 2022 23:28:41 GMT
Why? On what basis do you make that judgement? By what criteria do you decide that is more accurate than other estimates, e.g. the Jewish World Almanacs. I explained why I believe that the Nazis had the most accurate figures for the number of Jews.
It is because of the Nuremberg Laws requiring the identification and registering of all Jews and the subsequent time and organisation the Nazis then put into that task. The Nazis were organised and considered the Jewish question to be a high priority policy which had a lot of resources allocated to it. Again, this is the answer of a โbelieverโ mindset. The actual answer is more likely to be that he believes it BECAUSE it confirms his pre-conceived belief-system. He doesnโt believe the Red Cross reports or the Jewish World Almanacs because to do so would cause problems for his holocaust belief. The answer, in essence is because of him being in the grip of a confirmation bias. The World Almanac series of books sometimes provided two sets of figures for the world Jewish population. One came from the AJC (American Jewish Committee), and the other is the World Almanac's own estimation. 1933 : 15,316,359 (AJC), page 419 1936 : 15,753,633, page 748 1938 : 15,748,091 (AJC), page 510 1939 : uses 1938 data1940 : 15,290,983 (AJC), page 519; 15,319,359 (Almanac), page 129 1941 : uses 1938 data1942 : 15,192,089, page 849 1943 : uses 1942 data1944 : uses 1942 data1945 : 15,688,259 (AJC), page 494; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1946 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 488; 15,xxx,xxx (Almanac), page xxx 1947 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 219; 15,690,000 (Almanac), page 748 1948 : uses 1945 data (AJC), page 249; 15,753,638 (Almanac), page 849 1949 : n/a (AJC); 15,713,638 (Almanac), page 289 1950 : n/a (AJC); n/a (Almanac)In 1949, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1939 and 1947: 1949 AJC revision for 1939 : 16,643,120, page 204 1949 AJC revision for 1947 : 11,266,600, page 204 After 1949, the World Almanac discontinued providing their own estimations, instead, they only reported the numbers given by AJC. In 1950, the AJC didn't provide an estimation for that year, instead, they revised the number of Jews for 1948: 1950 AJC revision for 1948 : 11,373,000, page 473 So, let's brief this quickly. The last available pre-war number comes from 1938. In 1940, they somehow got a new estimation. In 1941, they use the 1938 number, not the 1940 number. In 1942, they got a new estimation, which was then used in both the 1943 and 1944 versions, until the war ended and they made a new estimation for 1945, which was then used for 1946, 1947 and 1948. In 1949, the Almanac made an estimation of their own, whereas the AJC decided to revise the 1947 number instead. 15,688,259 - 11,266,600 = 4,421,659Hmmmmm? 4,4 million missing Jews. No, that can't be right. We all knew 6 million died before the Nuremberg Trials began anyway. So what to do? Well, the AJC had a great idea! They revised the 1939 number by adding 1 million Jews. 895,029 to be precise. So: 4,421,659 + 895,029 = 5,316,688Bingo. The official Holocaust story goes that somewhere from 5,4 to 6 million Jews died. The number was predetermined and the AJC played along. Somehow they knew, 10 years later in 1949, that the 1938 and 1939 numbers were wrong. No mention of their source, no mention of their methodology used. They just changed the number. Poof. Historians will tell you the added one million Jews comes from the Wannsee Conference, where the Nazis counted 11,000,000 Jews in Europe, but it is known that this number was exaggerated by roughly two million, therefore their point is moot. The additional one million are imaginary Jews, added for the sole purpose of having more Jews killed on paper. This is one of the essential bits of the lie that six million Jews died, but as we can, it couldn't possibly be six million, but 4,4 million maximum. Now, this doesn't mean 4,4 million Jews died, because they didn't, it's just that most Jews after the war spread all over the world, took gentile names and became crypto-Jews. What's more, the AJC stopped reporting the actual number of Jews for current years, instead, they reported for two years back. Starting with 1949 when they "revised" the 1947 number, then in 1950 when they "revised" the 1948 number. They just kept "revising" the number of Jews two years back, ignoring the actual numbers. I wonder why? Here's something interesting: The 1933 World Almanac lists 682,400,000 Christians. The 1949 World Almanac lists 592,406,542 Christians. That's 89,993,458 less. The Handbook of Council of Churches in the USA from 1951 lists 15,300,000 Jews. . Source |
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