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Post by Hüntinger on Sept 12, 2023 1:18:23 GMT
Forced Laborers in the Third Reich: An Overview
Thread is to discuss Zwangarbeitslager für Juden in the Third Reich. There are several interesting articles and books but the work of Ulrich Herbert Universitaet Freiburg is being discussed here and linked with other information that has come to light. The Nazgul has correlated the existence of Jewish Forced Labour camps (Zwangarbeitslager) with locations next to railway lines and the names of Jewish Labour Camps mentioned in railway schedules of the time known as die Fahrplananordnung which people like Raul Hilberg (a Jewish Austrian-born American political scientist and historian.) and Nessie have used as "proof" of holocaust transports to a single destination. Using Fahrplananordnung 548, he states: Within that document as several labour camps for Jews, a Transit camp (Malkinia) as well as several stops at railway junctions where other Jewish Labour camps existed. Ulrich Herbert has written about forced labour in general and not just about Jewish labour. Here is a copy of the chapter of his book regarding Jews. Jews as Forced Workers.
Ulrich makes statements such as: He gives absolutely no evidence as to the veracity of that statement regarding mass murder at Auschwitz. Then this statement: Powerful statements indeed but once again no evidence at all supplied. Despite an extensive bibliography at the end of the whole overview, one would expect a prominent historian such as Ulrich Herbert to link to some form of evidence. For those interested in reading the full article on forced labour it is online as a pdf. Forced Labour and overview |
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Post by Nessie on Sept 12, 2023 8:13:24 GMT
Where is the evidence of Warsaw Jews being dropped off at stations en route to TII, to go to labour camps near Tluszcz and Malkinia in August 1942?
Please provide evidence from witnesses who were on the trains, at the camps, or camp records.
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Post by Agandaur on Sept 12, 2023 8:17:08 GMT
Where is the evidence of Warsaw Jews being dropped off at stations en route to TII, to go to labour camps near Tluszcz and Malkinia in August 1942? Please provide evidence from witnesses who were on the trains, at the camps, or camp records. That is not the topic it seems. You need to show that they did not indeed disembark. As trains were the main form of transport it is obvious that is how the jews in those camps arrived there. |
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Post by Nessie on Sept 12, 2023 11:29:45 GMT
Where is the evidence of Warsaw Jews being dropped off at stations en route to TII, to go to labour camps near Tluszcz and Malkinia in August 1942? Please provide evidence from witnesses who were on the trains, at the camps, or camp records. That is not the topic it seems. You need to show that they did not indeed disembark. As trains were the main form of transport it is obvious that is how the jews in those camps arrived there. The topic is about the use of Jews as forced labourers, starting with evidence provided of the clearing of the Warsaw ghetto, with the suggestion it was to forced labour camps at stops shown on the August 1942 Fahrplanordnung. It is up to Nazgul, or anyone who agrees with him, to evidence those stops were for Jews to disembark and go to forced labour camps. Regarding Tluszuz, it had a ghetto; www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ghettos/tluszcz.html"The Nazis took the city on 14 September 1939 setting up a Judenrat in October and instituting a regime of forced labour. Many fled east in the winter of 1939/40 leaving about 740 Jews , including refuges in the town. Crowded into a ghetto from September 1940 the Jewish population suffered from starvation and a typhoid epidemic, throughout that winter. On 27 May 1942 600 Jews were led towards Radzymin after 70 were shot in the town, about half of the deportees were murdered along the way and the rest were sent to the Warsaw Ghetto." That means in May 1942, Jews were cleared from Tluszuz, with some going to Warsaw. A stop there in August 1942, of Jews from Warsaw, would not be to return them, when the aim of the Nazis was to remove the Jews from occupied territory. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 12, 2023 21:43:46 GMT
It is up to Nazgul, or anyone who agrees with him, to evidence those stops were for Jews to disembark and go to forced labour camps. Regarding Tluszuz, it had a ghetto; www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ghettos/tluszcz.html"The Nazis took the city on 14 September 1939 setting up a Judenrat in October and instituting a regime of forced labour. Many fled east in the winter of 1939/40 leaving about 740 Jews , including refuges in the town. Crowded into a ghetto from September 1940 the Jewish population suffered from starvation and a typhoid epidemic, throughout that winter. On 27 May 1942 600 Jews were led towards Radzymin after 70 were shot in the town, about half of the deportees were murdered along the way and the rest were sent to the Warsaw Ghetto." That means in May 1942, Jews were cleared from Tluszuz, with some going to Warsaw. A stop there in August 1942, of Jews from Warsaw, would not be to return them, when the aim of the Nazis was to remove the Jews from occupied territory. What is being quoted are mere anecdotes, propaganda. The reason for the stop at Tluszcz is due to the fact that this was a major railway junction to labour camps and elsewhere. Tluszcz is mentioned in Flpo 548 stopping for 45 minutes. Here is an image of that junction.  |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 12, 2023 22:39:02 GMT
The topic is about the use of Jews as forced labourers, starting with evidence provided of the clearing of the Warsaw ghetto, with the suggestion it was to forced labour camps at stops shown on the August 1942 Fahrplanordnung. It is up to Nazgul, or anyone who agrees with him, to evidence those stops were for Jews to disembark and go to forced labour camps. The topic is about the work of Ulrich Herbert and forced labour across the Reich. However discussing the lengthy stops at Zwangarbeitslager along the tracks is acceptable. The tactic the troll LCS above uses is not to discuss the evidence at hand but to demand more evidence without offering any real input or research. This is why he was forcefully removed from CODOH, not because an alternative opinion was expressed. At every turn this troll plays the devils advocate to the point of contradicting himself. This was discussed on the old RODOH forum with the necessary contradictions put for all to see. Scott has a back up of the old forum so perhaps we can get a glimpse of real troll behaviour. Stating "I have evidence" offers nothing new to any discussion. The Fplo stops at labour camps for Jews does not imply there were not secretive transports to some extermination camp, whether it be TII or perhaps Kosow Podlaski. but that is not evidenced in the Fplo documents. The Fplo documents have been misrepresented fraudulently to support the "death train" hypothesis, now accepted as fact by many. While there may have been death trains as espoused by the likes of Hilberg, the Fplo documents support the transport of Jews to labour camps specifically for them. |
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Post by Nessie on Sept 13, 2023 7:18:56 GMT
It is up to Nazgul, or anyone who agrees with him, to evidence those stops were for Jews to disembark and go to forced labour camps. Regarding Tluszuz, it had a ghetto; www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ghettos/tluszcz.html"The Nazis took the city on 14 September 1939 setting up a Judenrat in October and instituting a regime of forced labour. Many fled east in the winter of 1939/40 leaving about 740 Jews , including refuges in the town. Crowded into a ghetto from September 1940 the Jewish population suffered from starvation and a typhoid epidemic, throughout that winter. On 27 May 1942 600 Jews were led towards Radzymin after 70 were shot in the town, about half of the deportees were murdered along the way and the rest were sent to the Warsaw Ghetto." That means in May 1942, Jews were cleared from Tluszuz, with some going to Warsaw. A stop there in August 1942, of Jews from Warsaw, would not be to return them, when the aim of the Nazis was to remove the Jews from occupied territory. What is being quoted are mere anecdotes, propaganda. The reason for the stop at Tluszcz is due to the fact that this was a major railway junction to labour camps and elsewhere. Tluszcz is mentioned in Flpo 548 stopping for 45 minutes. Here is an image of that junction. I have produced evidence Tluszcz was cleared of Jews, some being sent to Warsaw. You have produced a modern photo of the junction as it is now, which is not evidence it was being filled with Jews being resettled from Warsaw. |
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Post by Nessie on Sept 13, 2023 7:21:34 GMT
The topic is about the use of Jews as forced labourers, starting with evidence provided of the clearing of the Warsaw ghetto, with the suggestion it was to forced labour camps at stops shown on the August 1942 Fahrplanordnung. It is up to Nazgul, or anyone who agrees with him, to evidence those stops were for Jews to disembark and go to forced labour camps. The topic is about the work of Ulrich Herbert and forced labour across the Reich. However discussing the lengthy stops at Zwangarbeitslager along the tracks is acceptable. The tactic the troll LCS above uses is not to discuss the evidence at hand but to demand more evidence without offering any real input or research. This is why he was forcefully removed from CODOH, not because an alternative opinion was expressed. At every turn this troll plays the devils advocate to the point of contradicting himself. This was discussed on the old RODOH forum with the necessary contradictions put for all to see. Scott has a back up of the old forum so perhaps we can get a glimpse of real troll behaviour. Stating "I have evidence" offers nothing new to any discussion. The Fplo stops at labour camps for Jews does not imply there were not secretive transports to some extermination camp, whether it be TII or perhaps Kosow Podlaski. but that is not evidenced in the Fplo documents. The Fplo documents have been misrepresented fraudulently to support the "death train" hypothesis, now accepted as fact by many. While there may have been death trains as espoused by the likes of Hilberg, the Fplo documents support the transport of Jews to labour camps specifically for them. You have no evidence to back up your hypothesis Jews were being dropped off at stops on the way to Treblinka. You suggest they were being taken from Warsaw to labour camps in the surrounding area, but you offer no evidence of those camps and an increasing Jewish population by the end of 1942. What you call troll behaviour is me pointing out you have no evidence. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 13, 2023 8:59:46 GMT
+I have produced evidence Tluszcz was cleared of Jews, some being sent to Warsaw. You have produced a modern photo of the junction as it is now, which is not evidence it was being filled with Jews being resettled from Warsaw. I am not interested in the ghetto but the fact that Tluszcz was a junction; this is why the trains stopped as they did at other junctions. There are labour camps north of that Junction. (without ghettos) The Fplo documents show the starting point being prior to Warsaw. Another junction was Barowiec where there is no ghetto, but is a railway junction as well to other labour camps. |
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Post by Nessie on Sept 13, 2023 10:50:34 GMT
+I have produced evidence Tluszcz was cleared of Jews, some being sent to Warsaw. You have produced a modern photo of the junction as it is now, which is not evidence it was being filled with Jews being resettled from Warsaw. I am not interested in the ghetto but the fact that Tluszcz was a junction; this is why the trains stopped as they did at other junctions. There are labour camps north of that Junction. (without ghettos) The Fplo documents show the starting point being prior to Warsaw. Another junction was Barowiec where there is no ghetto, but is a railway junction as well to other labour camps. I get that is your claim, but until you show evidence of mass arrivals at those labour camps, of Jews transported from Warsaw, in 1942, your claim remains unevidenced. Searching for evidence about Tlusczc, there are histories of the temporary ghetto in the town, but nothing about a labour camp; muse.jhu.edu/pub/3/oa_monograph/chapter/3209346"A note preserved in the files of the JSS in Kraków, record- ing a message sent by a representative of the JSS for Kreis Warschau-Land, reports that of more than 800 Jews resettled from Tłuszcz on May 27, 1942, only 582 people reached the quarantine section of the Warsaw ghetto, without any per- sonal property or money. They arrived in a terrible state, many of the men barefoot. Unofficial information revealed that 65 people were selected at Marki along the way to perform agri- cultural work in Wilanów. Another 65 people were reportedly deported from Tłuszcz, who never arrived in quarantine nor were redirected to Wilanów." What is the name of the labour camp at or near Tlusczc that you allege received Jews from Warsaw in 1942? |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 13, 2023 11:47:59 GMT
t until you show evidence of mass arrivals at those labour camps, of Jews transported from Warsaw, in 1942, your claim remains unevidenced. What is the name of the labour camp at or near Tlusczc that you allege received Jews from Warsaw in 1942? Which part do you not get? The following part of Fplo 587 has a stop at "Skarzysko Kam", almost an hour. There were three Hasag camps specifically for jews.; it was also a railway junction for Jews to go elsewhere. Yad Vashem & JVL states: "Skarżysko Kamienna was established in August 1942 and was liquidated on August 1, 1944. Altogether, 25,000--30,000 Jews were brought to SkarzyskoKamienna. In January 1944 the camp officially became a concentration camp. It existed until August 1944, when all its inmates were deported to other concentration camps, mainly *Buchenwald in Germany and the * Czestochowa- "HASAG" camp in western Poland." Note that Czestochowa is also on the Fplo documents; this is called Tschenstochau Fplo 567. Alec Ward states: "From Radom they took us to slave labour camps Skarzysko Kamienna". One cay see on Fplo 587 on a return Treblinka trip the both Radom and Skarz Kam are stopped at consecutively.  This distance between the two locations is about 45 km so it is most likely Alec was stuck on a transport as indicated in the Fplo document. Not Fplo 587 document but another one. I never said there was a labour camp near Tluszcz but north of there from the railway junc |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 13, 2023 11:49:47 GMT
The Warsaw Jews were shot at Czerwony bor.
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Post by Nessie on Sept 13, 2023 12:22:55 GMT
t until you show evidence of mass arrivals at those labour camps, of Jews transported from Warsaw, in 1942, your claim remains unevidenced. What is the name of the labour camp at or near Tlusczc that you allege received Jews from Warsaw in 1942? Which part do you not get? The part where you evidence Jews from Warsaw being transported to and accommodated in camps in 1942. You have yet to evidence anyone getting off the train during that stop. Yad Vashem states; www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206028.PDF"Skarzysko-Kamienna (Kamienna in German sources), forced labor camp for Jews, located in the Polish town of Skarzysko-Kamienna. The camp belonged to the German Hasag concern. It was established in August 1942 and was liquidated on August 1, 1944. Altogether, 25,000--30,000 Jews were brought to Skarzysko- Kamienna, and between 18,000--23,000 perished there" There is no mention of transports from Warsaw. JVL states; www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/skarzysko-kamienna"Before World War II, 2,200 Jews lived in Skarzysko–Kamienna. The German army entered on Sept. 7, 1939, and immediately initiated anti-Jewish terror. On May 5, 1941, the ghetto was established. In October 1942 an Aktion took place in which the town's entire Jewish population was deported to the *Treblinka death camp and exterminated. After the liquidation of the ghetto a massive Julag (Judenlager), a slave labor camp, was set up in the town. In January 1944 the camp officially became a concentration camp. It existed until August 1944, when all its inmates were deported to other concentration camps, mainly *Buchenwald in Germany and the *Czestochowa- "HASAG" camp in western Poland. Altogether, about 15,000 Jewish prisoners passed through this camp, but over 10,000 of them perished there." There is again no mention of the camp taking transports from Warsaw. You have quote mined the sources to remove the information inconvenient to you. www.czestochowajews.org/history/czestochowa-ghetto/"According to official statistical data, the number of Jews in Częstochowa at the time was around 40,000. In the summer preceding liquidation of the big ghetto, after the influx of Jews from the surrounding area, that number exceeded 50,000...The result of this Deportation Action was 40,000 Częstochowa Jews were transported to their deaths in Treblinka. The number killed on-the-spot was never accurately determined, but is estimated at around 2,000." There is no evidence that ghetto took anyone from Warsaw. The evidence is that Nazis were initially sending Jews to ghettos, not just in Warsaw, but in oter Polish towns and from there, transporting many to TII. There is no evidence those places had camps that were taking people who were transported out of Warsaw. |
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Post by Nessie on Sept 13, 2023 12:28:39 GMT
The Warsaw Jews were shot at Czerwony bor. How many? When? There is evidence of a mass shooting at Czerwony Bor, but it is not of Jews from Warsaw. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciechan%C3%B3w"Before World War II, Ciechanów was home to a large Jewish community of 1,800, but during the Nazi German occupation, in November 1942, the majority of the Jewish community were transported to the Red Forest (Czerwony Bór) northeast of town and murdered in a mass shooting." |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 13, 2023 12:42:02 GMT
The part where you evidence Jews from Warsaw being transported to and accommodated in camps in 1942. I am not interested in the Warsaw Jews, that is another topic. Any civilian combatant should have been rightfully executed. Stop trolling. I gave a report of one person going from one camp to another. I have no intention of finding any more I don't give a stuff about Warsaw Jews, they were liable to execution legally. Quoting atrocity propaganda does not cut mustard actually. yet you cannot give that evidence. All you can do is repeat over and over atrocity propaganda. Now please discuss why Ulrich Herbert makes similar statements like yourself without references. |
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