|
Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Jun 29, 2023 9:58:54 GMT
Wiki and most sources have the final solution as follows: The Final Solution or the Final Solution to the Jewish Question was a Nazi plan for the genocide of individuals they defined as Jews during World War II. The "Final Solution to the Jewish question" was the official code name for the murder of all Jews within reach.link A self professed expert on such matters disagrees with the above definition by stating: Only someone with limited knowledge of what the Final Solution was, someone who has done little study, would think the Final Solution was only about deaths. A read of the the two documents would evidence that it was about the removal of Jews from Europe, by various means Discussion starts.
|
|
Nessie
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ง๐๐ซ๐๐๐ข๐ฅ๐ข๐ฌ ๐ฎ๐ฑ๐ท๐๐ฑ๐ถ๐ฐ๐ฎ๐๐ผ๐ฟ
Posts: 5,204
|
Post by Nessie on Jun 29, 2023 14:54:43 GMT
There will be no discussion from me, due to censorship and bullying.
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Jun 29, 2023 19:18:28 GMT
Wiki and most sources have the final solution as follows: The Final Solution or the Final Solution to the Jewish Question was a Nazi plan for the genocide of individuals they defined as Jews during World War II. The "Final Solution to the Jewish question" was the official code name for the murder of all Jews within reach.link A self professed expert on such matters disagrees with the above definition by stating: Only someone with limited knowledge of what the Final Solution was, someone who has done little study, would think the Final Solution was only about deaths. A read of the the two documents would evidence that it was about the removal of Jews from Europe, by various means Discussion starts. Thanks for this. How bizarre that Nessie is now venturing into what is regarded as โholocaust denialโ territory, just in order to avoid admit making an error and false claim. Fascinating. Yes, you are quite right Nazgul; the enforced, true-believer holocaust position is that โthe Final Solution of the Jewish questionโ was the title of the Third Reichโs genocide-of-all-Jewsโ policy. The Wannsee Conference and Protokol is believed by Holocaust true-believers to be the meeting to coordinate that genocide and mass-muder policy. The REALITY is that the minutes actually talk only about emigration and evacuation. Which is why the holocaust promulgators and true-believers decided these words and others are โeuphemismsโ. Nessie has switched sides and is confirming the reality โ the one that Revisionists affirm โ and all just to avoid a humiliating climb-down. ๐ Which I think is quite an extraordinary degree of facetiousness but also quite marvelous! ๐ฅณ
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Jun 29, 2023 22:09:57 GMT
There will be no discussion from me, due to censorship and bullying. It has been said many times that it is the interpretation of "evidence" that is important. In the case above the interpretation of this poster differs from that written and interpretated by the Wiki author. Nessie has seemingly aligned himself with "revisionists" in the suggestion that the "Final Solution" was not the genocide by murder of millions of Jews but the removal. If the evidence is discussed impartially without reference to names, name calling it is unlikely there would be any issues. If people have different interpretations of what the "Final Solution" is and how it differs from the general consensus of the Holocaust alleged it would be helpful to clarify. It is possible to have "genocide" without any mass murder. In fact it is clear that the Reich did commit genocide (the term coined after late in the war by Raphael Lemkin in 1944) due to prevention of breeding.
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Jun 30, 2023 11:19:49 GMT
There will be no discussion from me, due to censorship and bullying. There hasnโt been any genuine discussion. You have instead just been making illogical contradiction-replies that are not only incorrect, but often: i.) contradict simple word definitions (e.g. โcross-examineโ, โrhetoricalโ, โdeath-tollsโ, etc.)ii.) contradict your own sources, (e.g. wannsee protocol, etc.)iii.) contradict the holyhoax core axioms of belief. (e.g. the currently accepted and enforced understanding of what โthe final solutionโ meant to Heydrich, Himmler, Gรถring, etc.).
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Jun 30, 2023 14:11:36 GMT
Goebbel's Diary: March 7th, 1942 (it is presumed this was written after he had read a copy of the Wannsee Protocol)
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Jul 1, 2023 4:22:55 GMT
Goebbels: The Jewish Question must be solved within a pan-European frame. There are more than 11 million Jews in Europe. They will have to be concentrated first in the East; perhaps later after the war, an island can be assigned to them, such as Madagascar. In any case, there can be no peace in Europe until the last Jews are totally excluded from the European territory. Korherr has about 10 million Jews in Europe, which includes the Soviet Union. The Reich had no access to most of these Jews including those of the UK or Ireland. This pulls about 3 million of the total number of Jews, leaving approximately 7 million. Natural mortality ( link) with no birth rate would decline the 7 million by just under 2 million. This means that about 5 million Jews should have survived the war. The American Jewish year book puts the number of European Jews in 1948 as 3,779,300. This leaves a difference of 1.2 million. Korherr has 528 thousand emigrating which leaves 672 thousand dispersed throughout the world. 110 thousand went to Israel alone.
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Jul 14, 2023 13:39:43 GMT
Goebbels: The Jewish Question must be solved within a pan-European frame. There are more than 11 million Jews in Europe. They will have to be concentrated first in the East; perhaps later after the war, an island can be assigned to them, such as Madagascar. In any case, there can be no peace in Europe until the last Jews are totally excluded from the European territory. Korherr has about 10 million Jews in Europe, which includes the Soviet Union. The Reich had no access to most of these Jews including those of the UK or Ireland. This pulls about 3 million of the total number of Jews, leaving approximately 7 million. Natural mortality ( link) with no birth rate would decline the 7 million by just under 2 million. This means that about 5 million Jews should have survived the war. The American Jewish year book puts the number of European Jews in 1948 as 3,779,300. This leaves a difference of 1.2 million. Korherr has 528 thousand emigrating which leaves 672 thousand dispersed throughout the world. 110 thousand went to Israel alone. So, by your reckoning, how many European Jews perished during the war?
|
|
|
Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Jul 15, 2023 1:50:20 GMT
by your reckoning, how many European Jews perished during the war? The figure of about 1.2 million keeps coming up. This is the same as the percentage of deaths in all categories of ethnic groups. The deaths are sad but no more than anyone else; a result of collateral damage and not systematic murder. In 1900 Jews made up 2.2% of the European population link. It is reported that 20 million Europeans died (19.5 million link) of the 80 million deaths of WWII. More than half of the total number of casualties are accounted for by the dead of the Republic of China and of the Soviet Union. The figures above include the Soviet Republic as the European Jews are included in those figures. 2.2% of 19.5 million is 429 thousand. What is not taken into account in the above figures is the natural mortality over the war period. The Jews during WWII were deprived of reproductive rights with a high mortality rate due to physical conditions and lack of appropriate medical care; there were doctors but few pharmaceutical supplies to stave of problems such as high blood pressure, diabetes etc. (After Seegen noted in 1870 that roughly one quarter of his 140 diabetes patients were Jewish.. link) The mortality of Jews during the war would be similar at best to the modern Philippines data at 3.72% pa Putting this in perspective: European Jewish Population 1939: 9 240 000; the birth rate is non existent .Years WWII | Deaths | r Population | 1939 |
| 9240000 | 1940 | 343728 | 8896000 | 1941 | 330941 | 8565000 | 1942 | 318620 | 8246000 | 1943 | 306751 | 7939000 | 1944 | 295340 | 7644000 | 1945 | 284357 | 7360000 | ฮฃ | 1880000 |
| xฬ | 313000 |
| โ |
| 1880000 |
The table shows the impact of a high mortality rate due to the deprivations of war time conditions and resultant lack of resources. This excludes rampant diseases like typhus which took hold in most of the camps as well as the appalling conditions of weather in the near polar regions around Latvia. As a result of natural mortality and no births of note, the Jewish population of Europe would have fallen by 1.9 million people from the years 1940 to the end of 1945. The high mortality rate was exacerbated by disease, the atrocious weather combined with sordid living conditions especially in some of the eastern work camps. The lack of medicine combined with Jewish diseases was also a major contributing factor. Aktion 14f13 was also a terrible reality, where Jews and all people unfit for work were euthanized for a period. It is known that the Germans had a policy of summary execution for civilian combatants, including their helpers (5th columnists). Aiding and abetting a partisan would result in death if caught. This is why the families were dealt with by Einsatzgruppen. Over a million Heer soldiers were murdered by Partisans resulting in harsh reprisals. The reality is that partisans and their helpers were not civilians in actuality but Soviet Soldiers. Stalin ordered them to fight. Failure to do so would result in reprisal action by the NKVD. This area is very fuzzy and for sure, thousands of Jews were caught up in this mayhem. The policy was to shoot first and ask questions later.
|
|
|
Post by been_there on Jul 15, 2023 9:35:02 GMT
by your reckoning, how many European Jews perished during the war? The figure of about 1.2 million keeps coming up. This is the same as the percentage of deaths in all categories of ethnic groups. The deaths are sad but no more than anyone else; a result of collateral damage and not systematic murder. In 1900 Jews made up 2.2% of the European population link. It is reported that 20 million Europeans died (19.5 million link) of the 80 million deaths of WWII. More than half of the total number of casualties are accounted for by the dead of the Republic of China and of the Soviet Union. The figures above include the Soviet Republic as the European Jews are included in those figures. 2.2% of 19.5 million is 429 thousand. What is not taken into account in the above figures is the natural mortality over the war period. The Jews during WWII were deprived of reproductive rights with a high mortality rate due to physical conditions and lack of appropriate medical care; there were doctors but few pharmaceutical supplies to stave of problems such as high blood pressure, diabetes etc. (After Seegen noted in 1870 that roughly one quarter of his 140 diabetes patients were Jewish.. link) The mortality of Jews during the war would be similar at best to the modern Philippines data at 3.72% pa Putting this in perspective: European Jewish Population 1939: 9 240 000; the birth rate is non existent .Years WWII | Deaths | r Population | 1939 |
| 9240000 | 1940 | 343728 | 8896000 | 1941 | 330941 | 8565000 | 1942 | 318620 | 8246000 | 1943 | 306751 | 7939000 | 1944 | 295340 | 7644000 | 1945 | 284357 | 7360000 | ฮฃ | 1880000 |
| xฬ | 313000 |
| โ |
| 1880000 |
The table shows the impact of a high mortality rate due to the deprivations of war time conditions and resultant lack of resources. This excludes rampant diseases like typhus which took hold in most of the camps as well as the appalling conditions of weather in the near polar regions around Latvia. As a result of natural mortality and no births of note, the Jewish population of Europe would have fallen by 1.9 million people from the years 1940 to the end of 1945. The high mortality rate was exacerbated by disease, the atrocious weather combined with sordid living conditions especially in some of the eastern work camps. The lack of medicine combined with Jewish diseases was also a major contributing factor. Aktion 14f13 was also a terrible reality, where Jews and all people unfit for work were euthanized for a period. It is known that the Germans had a policy of summary execution for civilian combatants, including their helpers (5th columnists). Aiding and abetting a partisan would result in death if caught. This is why the families were dealt with by Einsatzgruppen. Over a million Heer soldiers were murdered by Partisans resulting in harsh reprisals. The reality is that partisans and their helpers were not civilians in actuality but Soviet Soldiers. Stalin ordered them to fight. Failure to do so would result in reprisal action by the NKVD. This area is very fuzzy and for sure, thousands of Jews were caught up in this mayhem. The policy was to shoot first and ask questions later. Thanks.
|
|
blake121666
โ๏ธ
๐๐๐ญ๐ซ๐ข๐๐ข๐๐ง
Posts: 47
|
Post by blake121666 on Jul 15, 2023 23:11:03 GMT
Goebbels: The Jewish Question must be solved within a pan-European frame. There are more than 11 million Jews in Europe. They will have to be concentrated first in the East; perhaps later after the war, an island can be assigned to them, such as Madagascar. In any case, there can be no peace in Europe until the last Jews are totally excluded from the European territory. Korherr has about 10 million Jews in Europe, which includes the Soviet Union. The Reich had no access to most of these Jews including those of the UK or Ireland. This pulls about 3 million of the total number of Jews, leaving approximately 7 million. Natural mortality ( link) with no birth rate would decline the 7 million by just under 2 million. This means that about 5 million Jews should have survived the war. The American Jewish year book puts the number of European Jews in 1948 as 3,779,300. This leaves a difference of 1.2 million. Korherr has 528 thousand emigrating which leaves 672 thousand dispersed throughout the world. 110 thousand went to Israel alone. Korherr has a European reduction of about 4.5 million Jews up to the 1st 3 months of '43. About 2.5 million emigrated to outside Europe and about 2 million dead. From the conclusion of the short report: He further states in that conclusion that only a part of the deaths of Soviet Russian Jews in the occupied eastern territories could be recorded in his report (and he uses the word "Todesfรคllen" = "deaths" here) . We interpret this to be section V.6 of the long report. Holocaust historians put this figure quite high - like about 700K to 1.4M more! I asked Nick about this here. His figuring is that v.6 should have been something like 1.5M-1.6M rather than 633,300. And he figures "slightly over 4 million were dead by the end of 1942". Long ReportShort ReportIf you wish to interpret V.4 as not being deaths but rather evacuations, then Korherr's approximate 2 million deaths would be reduced by about 1.45 million.
|
|