Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 15, 2023 14:12:34 GMT
The link you provided to evidence the suppression of reports that the Soviets were responsible; rodoh.info/post/13923 ... US reports by Col John H Van Vliet in 1945 & Capt George Earle in 1944 that were suppressed. By 1952, the Madden Committee had publicly blamed the Soviets... So your claim that the British and Americans silenced reports for decades is wrong, from your own link, as you ignore the times the US did blame the Soviets over the decades. Iโve twice referenced the continued cover up by Voice of America as late as 1978. And there is more. So... Moronic and/or dishonest? ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คช You the reader must decide. You said "Western governments DID go ALONG WITH IT, and did so for MANY DECADES!!!" You then cherry-pick where one government source, such as V Of A did go along with it and ignore another official source, such as the Congressional Maddison Committee did not. What the public got was an inconsistent message, with some government sources blaming the Soviets and others the Nazis. Yet, somehow, you think it is possible for there to be successful coordination from all government sources, over the mass gassing narrative. That the US could not get its act straight over one massacre, is evidence it could not pull off a much larger hoax. An unreferenced source from Wikipedia is not good enough to evidence the British government officially agreed with the Soviets during the Cold War, that the Nazis were responsible for Katyn. It was politically expedient to blame the Soviets for Katyn during the Cold War, which is exactly what the Madden Committee did. But then other's, for reasons unknown, such as V Of A, continued to fall for the hoax. The Katyn Massacre hoax unravelled because of the EVIDENCE. Indeed, because of the evidence, it only kept going There was no political expediency for the Soviets, who wanted to be the prime victims of Nazism, not the Jews. That is why the Soviets largely ignored the Jewish war deaths and it was the Polish who conducted the majority of investigations and memorialisation of the death camps. The mass gassing narrative is still accepted, because of the EVIDENCE. This thread proves you cannot EVIDENCE an alternative and since you cannot EVIDENCE an alternative, logically your doubts about the evidence for gassings are wrong. That is evidence historians are doing their jobs and critically re-examining the EVIDENCE. You are being dishonest about what I argued. I said there is no obvious evidence, like intact gas chambers and photos of corpses in mass graves. Instead, there is the evidence of demolished gas chambers and cremated remains, as the Nazis tried to cover up their crimes. Like the difference between a whole, undamaged gun and one that has been smashed up. Repeatedly using the wrong pronoun, is an example of how you are unable to be civil in the debate. No one wonder this place as died a death. No one else is prepared to put up with your behaviour. I use your refusal to use the correct pronoun to prove what you are like AND your hypocrisy when you complain about being abused. The mesh columns are referred to in an A-B construction office document and from witnesses. You are being dishonest when you say they are un-evidenced. Un-evidenced means no evidence, not evidence you don't know about, or disagree with. Why is there nothing from the media not controlled by Jews, such as in the Arab world? Those who support Palestine, which includes Jews, get criticised by others and vice versa. Considering how you abuse others, you are not in a position to criticise abuse. The only place where the Katyn hoax was totally accepted, was Russia, because of Soviet control there. Elsewhere, there were groups who did not accept Katyn was by the Nazis. Everywhere else, there were doubts and people who believed the Soviets were responsible. That was because of the EVIDENCE, something you do not understand. You are ignoring that there is another reason why there are denial laws, which is that Holocaust denial is a lie and a hoax designed to spread hatred of Jewish people. You refuse to answer "where did they go?" because you cannot. You have no evidence from witnesses, docuemnts, physical finds at the death camp sites. Those who successfully exposed Katyn as a Soviet hoax, had evidence. You do not. That is why you refuse to discuss EVIDENCE. Instead you make arguments that are logically flawed and try to pass them off as evidence. The Katyn Hoax was exposed, becuase of the evidence of what DID happen. You cannot evidence what DID happen, instead of mass gassings. It is ONLY when you can EVIDENCE what did happen, that you can claim to have proved gassing is a hoax. Your present use of logically flawed criticism of the EVIDENCE for gassings, is not acceptable, except to people who do not understand evidence.
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Post by been_there on Jun 15, 2023 14:35:00 GMT
Iโve twice referenced the continued cover up by Voice of America as late as 1978. And there is more. So... Moronic and/or dishonest? ๐คฆโโ๏ธ๐คช You the reader must decide. ...for reasons unknown, V Of A, continued to fall for the hoax. Ha ha ha! ๐คฃ๐๐
๐คฃ๐
They didnโt โfall forโ it, ๐คฆโโ๏ธ they continued to deliberately, deceitfully perpetuate it. (Presumably somebody didnโt get the memo. ๐) Holy moly?! Do some research on the V of A and the Katyn hoax. You are again showing you contradict automatically from a position of wilful and stubborn ignorance. Ha ha ha! ๐คฃ๐๐
๐คฃ๐There is!! [Holy moly! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ] E.g. Have you never heard of the Tehran โInternational Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaustโ*? So... Again arguing from ignorance. *
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 15, 2023 14:42:37 GMT
Been-there is using a hoax about one massacre that failed, to try and evidence it is possible to hoax multiple massacres. He produces evidence that some US official sources said the Nazis were responsible and others said the Soviets were, so the American government could not organise itself to maintain a hoax, yet we are supposed to believe that every world government is presently being organised to maintain the Holocaust mass gassings as a hoax.
He does not understand that the Soviet Katyn claims were proved to be a hoax, by evidence as to what did happen, not what did not happen. The evidence proved the massacre was by the Soviets, not that the Nazis were not responsible, and then it was unknown who did murder c22,000 Polish soldiers and people. The evidence that proved the Soviets were responsible, exonerated the Nazis.
When accused of the Katyn Massacre, the Nazis produced a lot of the evidence that would go on to prove the Soviets were responsible. Why did they not do the same, when they knew they were being accused of massacres at TII, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas? Why did they not get journalists and POWs to go to those sites and excavate and provide evidence they were not massacre sites?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 15, 2023 14:53:02 GMT
...for reasons unknown, V Of A, continued to fall for the hoax. Ha ha ha! ๐คฃ๐๐
๐คฃ๐
They didnโt โfall forโ it, ๐คฆโโ๏ธ they continued to deliberately, deceitfully perpetuate it. (Presumably somebody didnโt get the memo. ๐) Holy moly?! Do some research on the V of A and the Katyn hoax. You are again showing you contradict automatically from a position of wilful and stubborn ignorance. www.coldwarradiomuseum.com/secret-memos-on-how-voice-of-america-was-duped-by-soviet-propaganda-on-katyn-massacre/"Secret Memos on How Voice of America Was Duped by Soviet Propaganda on Katyn Massacre" Duped by, means they fell for the hoax. Please link me to where the Iranian government then declared there were no mass gassings and the evidence they had to prove what did happen. www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-holocaust-idUSL1163959720061211โThe aim of this conference is not to deny or confirm the Holocaust,โ Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said. โIts main aim is to create an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust.โ
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Post by been_there on Jun 15, 2023 15:18:44 GMT
Ha ha ha! ๐คฃ๐๐
๐คฃ๐
They didnโt โfall forโ it, ๐คฆโโ๏ธ they continued to deliberately, deceitfully perpetuate it. (Presumably somebody didnโt get the memo. ๐) Holy moly?! Do some research on the V of A and the Katyn hoax. You are again showing you contradict automatically from a position of wilful and stubborn ignorance. www.coldwarradiomuseum.com/secret-memos-on-how-voice-of-america-was-duped-by-soviet-propaganda-on-katyn-massacre/"Secret Memos on How Voice of America Was Duped by Soviet Propaganda on Katyn Massacre" Duped by, means they fell for the hoax. [Oh boy! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ] Typical true-believer confirmation bias. You only look for and only accept what fits with what you already believe.  More deceitful avoidance. You are deceptively moving the goalposts. You can never completely own your errors and ignorance. If you were genuinely interested in accuracy and โevidenceโ you would feel ashamed. Instead you choose to lie bigger. The Tehran conference was just one example. Disbelief in the totality of the holyhoax mythology is the norm in the Middle East. And Iran is still suffering from the repercussions of daring to encourage genuine open-minded research and discussion. Again proving you are the โdenierโ who is denying reality and lying when evidence refuting your position is presented. Question: What sort of genuine historiography would despise and seek to punish presentation and support of genuine research and analysis of a historical event? Answer: no genuine historiography would. Only a deliberately deceptive mythology protected by people deep in denial would. 
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 15, 2023 15:39:35 GMT
[Oh boy! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ] Typical true-believer confirmation bias. You only look for and only accept what fits with what you already believe.  Why not respond with EVIDENCE that V of A knowingly perpetrated the Katyn hoax? I have shown you evidence as to why I said V of A had fallen for the hoax. bbgwatch.com/katyn-cover-up-hidden-history-of-the-voice-of-america/"The OWI and VOA leadership dominated by unabashedly pro-Soviet propagandists ignored repeated warnings from the State Department not to get burned by the Katyn story by careless reporting and one-sided commentary." The pro-Soviet V of A just believed the Soviets, without checking the evidence which others were suspect of, and so they were easily duped. Link me to evidence of an Arab government that has officially declared there was no mass gassing and the evidence they have of what did happen. Those governments are not controlled by the Jews, so where is the evidence based history of what really happened? A genuine, evidenced history, that is under attack by an unevidenced, hateful, deceptive narrative, designed to spread hate for a specific group of people, is perfectly entitled to defend itself from that attack. There is evidence the Emperor has fallen for a hoax. Only the Emperor cannot see that evidence. You cannot see the evidence for gassings, which is why you are dishonest and make fake claims such as there is no evidence of wire mesh columns at A-B, when in fact there is evidence. You then believe in no mass gassings, when there is no evidence something else happened inside the A-B Kremas. You are the Emperor.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 15, 2023 15:41:42 GMT
Why did the Nazis only take people to the location of and prepare a report into the massacre at Katyn and not TII, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas, which were also the reported sites of massacres?
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Post by been_there on Jun 15, 2023 16:53:22 GMT
[Oh boy! ๐คฆโโ๏ธ] Typical true-believer confirmation bias. You only look for and only accept what fits with what you already believe.  Why not respond with EVIDENCE that V of A knowingly perpetrated the Katyn hoax? Because it is a waste of time. You arenโt interested in truth and accuracy. As you again demonstrated you ONLY look for and accept what supports your cultish attachment to the Holocaust mass-gassing narrative. Even if evidence is provided you either dodge discussing it, or move the goalposts or go into denial with ignorant contradictions. Er... exactly as you just did. Here, it took me mere seconds to find these! You couldnโt because you refuse to look. Which is called denial. (Oh the irony!)  One of those articles claimed there was no cover-up. I predict you will hone in on that one. ๐

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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 15, 2023 18:21:39 GMT
Why not respond with EVIDENCE that V of A knowingly perpetrated the Katyn hoax? Because it is a waste of time. You arenโt interested in truth and accuracy. As you again demonstrated you ONLY look for and accept what supports your cultish attachment to the Holocaust mass-gassing narrative. Even if evidence is provided you either dodge discussing it, or move the goalposts or go into denial with ignorant contradictions. Er... exactly as you just did. Here, it took me mere seconds to find these! You couldnโt because you refuse to look. Which is called denial. (Oh the irony!)  One of those articles claimed there was no cover-up. I predict you will hone in on that one. ๐
 You have presented evidence that V of A probably realised it was wrong to have accepted the Soviet version of what happened at Katyn, but they refused to admit to their error and "sometimes tried to censor references", so they knowingly perpetrated the Katyn hoax. But, initially, they were duped, as they blindly accepted the Soviet version due to their bias and support for the SU.
You are very binary, things are one or the other. You latch onto one explanation, without realising life is more complicated than that. It is possible for V of A to be both duped into believing and to knowingly perpetrate the Katyn Hoax. There is evidence of both. You only want to believe one, not both, so when I pointed to evidence of the other, you got rather upset. You think it can only be one. In fact, there is evidence of both.
You call me cultish, which is an odd descriptive when I want evidence. You said that I "ONLY look for and accept what supports your cultish attachment to the Holocaust mass-gassing narrative". This thread is an opportunity for you to provide evidence from witnesses who were inside the AR camps, Chelmno or the Kremas, documents directly pertaining to the operation of those places, physical site surveys, any images or other contemporaneous evidence. I accept those forms of evidence. You cannot provide any. Instead, you provide illogical arguments based on logical fallacies, whereby you claim all the witnesses lied and something else, that you cannot evidence, happened.
Now, why did the Nazis only take people to the location of and prepare a report into the massacre at Katyn in 1943 and not TII, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas in 1943, which were also the reported sites of massacres?
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Post by been_there on Jun 15, 2023 19:45:19 GMT
Because it is a waste of time. You arenโt interested in truth and accuracy. As you again demonstrated you ONLY look for and accept what supports your cultish attachment to the Holocaust mass-gassing narrative. Even if evidence is provided you either dodge discussing it, or move the goalposts or go into denial with ignorant contradictions. Er... exactly as you just did. Here, it took me mere seconds to find these! You couldnโt because you refuse to look. Which is called denial. (Oh the irony!)  One of those articles claimed there was no cover-up. I predict you will hone in on that one. ๐
 You have presented evidence that V of A probably realised it was wrong to have accepted the Soviet version of what happened at Katyn, but they refused to admit to their error and "sometimes tried to censor references", so they knowingly perpetrated the Katyn hoax. But, a, they were duped, as they blindly accepted the Soviet version due to their bias and support for the SU. Typical denial and pathetic attempt to dodge the reality AGAIN just shown to you! You never accept your errors. It is again YOU that is in denial! Proving itโs hopeless trying to get you to see reason and to approach reality honestly and rationally. Again you refuse to admit your cultish adherence to your flawed view of history and your religious motivation to being a good true-believer. First I asked YOU to search for V of Aโs participation in the hoax/cover-up as you denied it had occurred. Anyone interested in truth and accuracy would do that themselves. A cultish true-believer would not. They would insist they already knew, and that their current understanding was the only correct one er... just as YOU did. You refused to look and check. Denial! Ha ha ha! ๐
๐๐คฃ [Oh boy!] I didnโt get upset. ๐ What you are doing here is called โPsychological projectionโ. It is a common reaction by delusional people and is done to avoid an uncomfortable confrontation with reality. You are describing your own approach that has just been demonstrated to you, but projecting it outwards because you canโt face the reality of your own state of mind. More irrational and frankly idiotic denial of basic reality as in this case it is a binary situation: they can NOT both be duped and simultaneously be deliberately participating in perpetrating a hoax to misinform their listeners. You have inadvertently again exposed your own lying, cultish mind-set. Yet you wonโt admit this โevidenceโ. I assume it is because you are so attached to being right, you literally filter out any evidence proving error. Itโs hopeless having an honest, rational discussion with you. But hopefully others reading will also see your dishonesty and will understand that it is ONLY by being in denial to the reality that makes continued belief in the holocaust mass-gassing mythology possible. Which is why so many of your fellow-believers at Klowns think having you on their โteamโ is not good.
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Post by been_there on Jun 15, 2023 19:52:12 GMT
Question: What sort of genuine historiography would despise and seek to punish presentation and support of genuine research and analysis of a historical event?
Answer: no genuine historiography would. Only a deliberately deceptive mythology protected by people deep in denial would. A genuine, evidenced history, that is under attack by an unevidenced, hateful, deceptive narrative, designed to spread hate for a specific group of people, is perfectly entitled to defend itself from that attack. Here is further proof of Nessieโs literally lunatic approach to discussion. The reality obviously is that even if a โgenuine, evidenced history was under attack by an unevidenced, hateful, deceptive narrative, designed to spread hate for a specific group of peopleโ it definitely would NOT โdespise and seek to punish presentation and support of genuine research and analysis of a historical eventโ. It would do the EXACT OPPOSITE! Yes, it would be โperfectly entitled to defend itself from that attackโ, but it would NOT do that by suppressing โgenuine researchโ. Nessie has inadvertently exposed her delusional, deceptive approach to this bogus historiography.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 16, 2023 7:56:51 GMT
You have presented evidence that V of A probably realised it was wrong to have accepted the Soviet version of what happened at Katyn, but they refused to admit to their error and "sometimes tried to censor references", so they knowingly perpetrated the Katyn hoax. But, a, they were duped, as they blindly accepted the Soviet version due to their bias and support for the SU. Typical denial and pathetic attempt to dodge the reality AGAIN just shown to you! You never accept your errors. It is again YOU that is in denial! Proving itโs hopeless trying to get you to see reason and to approach reality honestly and rationally. Again you refuse to admit your cultish adherence to your flawed view of history and your religious motivation to being a good true-believer. First I asked YOU to search for V of Aโs participation in the hoax/cover-up as you denied it had occurred. Anyone interested in truth and accuracy would do that themselves. A cultish true-believer would not. They would insist they already knew, and that their current understanding was the only correct one er... just as YOU did. You refused to look and check. Denial! Ha ha ha! ๐
๐๐คฃ [Oh boy!] I didnโt get upset. ๐ What you are doing here is called โPsychological projectionโ. It is a common reaction by delusional people and is done to avoid an uncomfortable confrontation with reality. You are describing your own approach that has just been demonstrated to you, but projecting it outwards because you canโt face the reality of your own state of mind. More irrational and frankly idiotic denial of basic reality as in this case it is a binary situation: they can NOT both be duped and simultaneously be deliberately participating in perpetrating a hoax to misinform their listeners. You have inadvertently again exposed your own lying, cultish mind-set. Yet you wonโt admit this โevidenceโ. I assume it is because you are so attached to being right, you literally filter out any evidence proving error. Itโs hopeless having an honest, rational discussion with you. But hopefully others reading will also see your dishonesty and will understand that it is ONLY by being in denial to the reality that makes continued belief in the holocaust mass-gassing mythology possible. Which is why so many of your fellow-believers at Klowns think having you on their โteamโ is not good. I produced evidence they were duped into believing the hoax. You produced evidence they knowingly perpetrated the hoax.
Because of the evidence you produced, I now accept they were initially duped as they genuinely believed the Soviet version, that they must have realised they were wrong and for decades, they did knowingly perpetrate the hoax.
It is possible for someone to be duped and then as they are presented with more evidence, they realise that they were wrong. Honest people will alter their view. Dishonest people refuse to and stick to the wrong initial belief. The V of A were the latter.
Many revisionists are like the V of A and no matter the evidence, they believe in what is wrong and refuse to follow the evidence and change their beliefs. Some revisionists have been honest and accept their initial belief was wrong.
That is why revisionists are asked "where did they go?". It is being pointed out to them that there is no evidence of millions of Jews living in camps in 1944, after all the ghettos had been emptied and closed down and that millions were not liberated in 1945. There is evidence to track them, from their homes to the ghettos and the ghettos to the AR camps and then the evidence of their movement and accommodation stops. There is evidence they were gassed. An honest person would accept the evidence, despite their opinion on how people described the gassings and their personal belief about what was possible.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 16, 2023 8:16:11 GMT
A genuine, evidenced history, that is under attack by an unevidenced, hateful, deceptive narrative, designed to spread hate for a specific group of people, is perfectly entitled to defend itself from that attack. Here is further proof of Nessieโs literally lunatic approach to discussion. The reality obviously is that even if a โgenuine, evidenced history was under attack by an unevidenced, hateful, deceptive narrative, designed to spread hate for a specific group of peopleโ it definitely would NOT โdespise and seek to punish presentation and support of genuine research and analysis of a historical eventโ. It would do the EXACT OPPOSITE! Yes, it would be โperfectly entitled to defend itself from that attackโ, but it would NOT do that by suppressing โgenuine researchโ. Nessie has inadvertently exposed her delusional, deceptive approach to this bogus historiography. You are making more assertions. You also fail to see the irony in your assertion. When Holocaust deniers come under attack on one of their forums, they fight back and one way they do that, is to suppress genuine research. Look at all the posts that contain evidence that have been censored and moved to threads like "gibberish". You use abuse, as you fight back, most commonly by making suggestions about mental health and stability.
What you think of as revisionist research, is research to back up their beliefs that all the witnesses lied. For example, when a witness claims thousands were put into a gas chamber, research is conducted into how many people will fit in a certain space and then it is concluded the witness has lied, because that many people cannot fit in a certain space. That evidence that witnesses are poor at estimating the size of crowds and merely exaggerated the numbers and made a mistake is ignored.
Revisionism relies on producing evidence to dispute witness claims. Another example is, how much wood they think is needed to burn corpses on pyres and where that wood came from. It is assumed the Nazis would chop down all the nearby trees to the camp and since aerial photos show those trees still in place, they cannot have had enough wood. That ignores evidence they could get wood delivered to the camps on trains from local wood yards.
Revisionists produce no evidence from witnesses who were inside the camps, documents or any other source as to what did happen. They just dispute the evidence for gassing and claim, therefore something else unevidenced happened. That is like disputing the Nazis killed the Poles at Katyn and then not bothering to establish who did kill them. That is not how historical research works. The Nazis knew that. They did not produce a report to prove they did not kill the Poles. They produced a report to prove the Soviets killed the Poles.
What revisionism does is not genuine historical research. It is a unique to them form of research that is not used by or taught in any university, which has been designed specifically to deny mass gassings took place, rather than establish the truth as to what did happen. When genuine history is attacked by a bogus form of history and that bogus form is specifically pro-Nazi and anti-Jewish, some think it should be made illegal.
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Post by Nessie on Jun 16, 2023 10:55:53 GMT
A thread on how the Voice of America, despite the evidence the 1943 massacre of c22,000 Poles was by the Soviets, they continued to support Soviet claims they were killed by the Nazis. The posts were originally dumped by the Moderator in a general thread used to move posts he does not like. Rather than waste the discussion by losing it, a new thread is better. The start of the debate is here
which the Moderator has left.
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