blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 14, 2021 23:14:03 GMT
Say, for instance, vanishing point is at point (X1, Y1) for this picture and (X2, Y2) for that picture. The angle in the one picture is theta1 and theta2 for the other. Are the distances then the same to the vanishing point? Are you lining them up in the same plane? Have you determined the angle each is being viewed at?
No. You aren't doing ANY of this. You are playing mind games with yourself.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 14, 2021 23:28:04 GMT
The metric that matters is the angle at the vanishing point, not "distance to the vanishing point". Please show me a picture of a standard gauge railway from what you believe to be from a similar perspective as this photograph: 
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 14, 2021 23:30:36 GMT
To recap, he is saying that none of the pictures I am using for comparison against standard gauge railways are taken from a similar enough angle to do the comparison. In response, I ask him to provide a picture that he thinks is from a closer angle to this one than all of the ones I have used so far.
He can't, so he's going to cop out of the challenge. He has no leg to stand on without showing me a picture of a standard gauge railway that looks like these rails here.
This is not some extraordinary angle- the photographer is standing in between the rails and taking a picture from about standing height.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 14, 2021 23:43:47 GMT
Here's another image of a standard gauge railway:  Look at how it corresponds to the Sobibor railway, along with all the other photographs of standard gauge railways I've shown so far.  And how it's wider than this image of the Treblinka spur:  What he is saying is that the Treblinka spur only looks narrower because the picture of the Treblinka spur is taken from a much taller height than the Sobibor photo and all the other photos of known standard gauges. That's obviously bull-[excrement], as all these photographs are obviously taken from around standing height at similar angles, but if he believes his own bull-[excrement] then all he needs to do is show us a picture of a standard gauge rail from whatever he thinks the more similar angle would be and that fits the Treblinka spur. But he can't.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 15, 2021 0:28:51 GMT
To simplify his argument, he is saying that this picture:  Is taken from a much taller height than this picture:  And that's why the width between the rails in the top photo forms a narrower angle than the rails on the bottom photo. That is such obvious stupidity. If anything the Treblinka photo appears to have been taken slightly lower to the ground, but not enough to impact the analysis or lead to a different conclusion. But understand that his argument boils down to that, that's how far he is reaching. He will never be able to find a picture of a known standard-gauge railway that looks like the Treblinka spur, because the rails in that photograph are not standard gauge.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 15, 2021 1:30:01 GMT
Here's another standard gauge railway:  Again- what he is saying is that the picture of the Treblinka spur was taken from a significantly greater height than this and all the other pictures of standard gauge railways that all consistently show a wider angle at the vanishing point than the Treblinka spur.
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blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 15, 2021 5:16:27 GMT
Let's just give the coup-de-grace to your contention with Oozy's post to you at skeptics forumIs it true or not that you think these 2 rails are equivalent because you got them to line up with your procedure?   And yet the one picture was taken at 43 degrees from Due North and the other at 23 degrees from Due North. Do you not see that what you lined up are lines existing in different planes? That the distances you are lining up are not the same? You are lining up parallel lines in one orientation to parallel lines in another orientation. Given that lengths are so sensitive to the angle, you are equating different lengths to be the same. You have shown nothing by lining these 2 up but that one can project parallel lines at any angle - in 3 dimensions - you do not know that the things that you are comparing are coplanar. They obviously were not in this case. Do you understand this argument? Do you still think these two tracks are the same gauge simply because you lined them up in the way you have been doing for all of your examples?
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blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 15, 2021 5:27:15 GMT
And I'm not playing your silly game of showing you a picture that refutes your contentions, and you rejecting it for spurious reasons. Your method is too sensitive to viewing angles. The distances you think you are aligning are not equal if they are not coplanar. The odds that 2 pictures of 2 different tracks were taken at the exact same 3-D angle are not good. That you can rotate them in 3-D space and line them up isn't as interesting as you think it is.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 15, 2021 6:36:31 GMT
If you are going to pull the "coup-de-grace" card, you better have something less embarrassing. You have misinterpreted that exchange. In fact, my analysis suggested that the railway in the lower photograph was a wider gauge than the Treblinka spur in the upper photograph. My analysis did not suggest they are the same gauge like you claimed. I just made this photograph now to demonstrate:  In fact, Oozy was the one who walked away with the conclusion that this railway in blue was metre-gauge, while my analysis suggests it is a wider gauge than the Treblinka spur. So your comment has mistakenly switched our positions!
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blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 15, 2021 16:13:07 GMT
If you are going to pull the "coup-de-grace" card, you better have something less embarrassing. You have misinterpreted that exchange. In fact, my analysis suggested that the railway in the lower photograph was a wider gauge than the Treblinka spur in the upper photograph. My analysis did not suggest they are the same gauge like you claimed. I just made this photograph now to demonstrate:  In fact, Oozy was the one who walked away with the conclusion that this railway in blue was metre-gauge, while my analysis suggests it is a wider gauge than the Treblinka spur. So your comment has mistakenly switched our positions! Ok. Let's go with what you did there. The 2 tracks are in different planes because they were taken at a different angle (and let's just assume the optics resolution of the camera and film is identical for both pictures). You are lining them up to what you think is a common vanishing point - and let's assume that you identified that point correctly. But the one set of parallels is converging on that point in a different plane than the other. Any distance you are observing in a common plane is a difference between the projection of the one plane on to the other. You are not measuring differences in the physical thing but a projection of it on to another plane. If your Treblinka picture had RR ties in it that were perpendicular to the rails - as in the other picture, you would see that the angles of those perpendiculars were different in your rotated picture and the other one. The ties in the one picture would not be parallel to the ties in the other picture. With that angle you should be able to determine the angle the one plane makes to the other. And adjust your distances accordingly. In short, the Treblinka rails are converging to that common vanishing point in a different plane. Distances in the one plane are not of equal length to distances in the other plane. One of them is converging to that vanishing point at a different rate. You are pretending that those left rails that you lined up show the same distance. But one is a projection onto the other. And just with my naked eye, I can see that the lines you drew are significantly different than the rail lines there.  WTF, man! Both the blue AND the purple lines are being drawn up in the 3rd dimension with what you did there! And not even with any sense to it. Are you playing a joke on me? That's a serious question I'm asking here. Are you joking?
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blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 15, 2021 16:40:42 GMT
IOW, how do you know that the angle between the red and blue lines there is not the angle between the different planes - that converge to that point?
The answer is that you do not know that.
The only way you could determine that is by common measure of distances. In this case, you could assume that the ties in both are perpendicular to the rails. So if they were in the same plane, the ties in the one picture would be parallel to the ties in the other.
That would be an easy eyeballing determination that you might be dealing with a common plane after your alignment.
If you think that you have parallel lines in the rails, then you must have parallel lines in their perpendiculars.
But if those ties are even slightly off from parallel between the 2 pictures, then you are dealing with different planes. And even the tiniest of differences at the infinity point would look big very far away.
In the real physical world, those parallel lines converge only at infinity.
In your pictures, infinity is a measurable distance in that picture's pixel-space.
If you get the angle at that infinity point even the slightest bit off, any distance measure is screwed. Your difference of measure at infinity is blown to any proportion you like the further away you get from infinity.
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blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 15, 2021 16:59:55 GMT
And that leads me to another observation.
If the ties were spaced the same in the 2 rails, you'd expect that to be the case in your comparison - i.e. same number of ties for equal measures.
So when you compare one picture to another, if you don't get the same number of ties in the same pixel-distance, you are not comparing equal measures.
So if your vanishing point occurs after X ties in the one picture and Y ties in the other. If you think you are comparing equal measures, X must equal Y (or off by one tops -given how they're laid out).
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 15, 2021 17:21:37 GMT
All of your gibberish is bullshit, you have no idea what you are talking about. If your critique were right, then my example pictures of known standard gauge railways would have different angles at the vanishing point. But they don't. They all align with each-other and the reference template. Do you seriously think it's just a coincidence? It's not, it's a proof of concept that this methodology works, and that proof of concept has been replicated across at least a dozen images at this point. The fact that I show angular correspondence at the vanishing point between different images of known standard and narrow gauge railways proves that my methodology is working. Why do you think these results are so consistent if the analysis is as brittle to the angle of view as you are claiming?
On the other hand, you cannot provide a single image of a known standard gauge railway that you estimate to be from a similar angle as the picture of the Treblinka spur on the ground. That's wise, because any picture you choose will just show consistency with all my other results.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 15, 2021 17:27:21 GMT
By the way, the angle of the projections of two parallel lines of equivalent width at the vanishing point is the same across different images if and only if the angle of view is the same between the images.
So the fact that I am measuring the same angle in various images of standard gauge railways is proof that the angle of view does not have to be precisely equal like you are claiming. That makes no sense whatsoever, neither does it make sense intuitively. You seirously think that if you take a picture of a railway, and then move the camera a few centimeters in any direction, that this is going to have an appreciable difference in the perspective of the photograph? No. If the angle of view is close enough, then the angle at the vanishing point is also close enough to draw conclusions about the relative width of the lines.
If you think the images of standard gauge railways I have used are at a significantly different perspective than the picture of the Treblinka spur, then I invite you to present an image of a known standard gauge railway that you believe is at a similar view. But I know you won't do that, because you cannot.
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blake121666
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 15, 2021 17:37:21 GMT
Answer my question of how you know that your purple lines and blue lines reside within the same plane.
I'm asking this even though I can eyeball the damn picture and see that your lines have little to do with the actual rail lines, it seems!
I'm asking the question about the lines you drew on the pictures that appear to me to have been drawn from delusions in your mind.
But anyway, answer the question.
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