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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 12, 2021 5:39:15 GMT
I have no clue why you think counting pixels is somehow more valid than my analysis corresponding the vanishing points. Totally absurd. The angle at the vanishing point is what matters, which you seemed to acknowledge in an earlier post but have now abandoned in favor of counting pixels, which is not a valid of analysis. We can align the vanishing points of these photographs and see that the Treblinka spur is narrower than the Malkinia-Siedlce line:  "Even a fairly slight skew in the perspective will change angles enough to ruin your method." That is not true, a slight skew will lead to a slight difference in perspective. "You cannot compare pictures from 2 different perspectives in the way you are doing." Yes you can, and I have. I have posted many photographs proving that a standard-gauge railway from one photograph can be perfectly corresponded to a standard-gauge railway from a different photograph provided the angle of view of the photograph is similar. So what you're saying is just wrong. You absolutely can, and I've done it multiple times to prove that it works in corresponding known railways of the same gauge. Yet you continue you ignore that evidence. If that methodology does not work, then why am I able to correspond the standard-gauge Birkenau railway perfectly with the Tanzania standard-gauge railway? Do you think that's just a coincidence? It's not, it shows that the methodology is valid and you saying it isn't is not a real argument. "That the width of the rails in the right picture look skinnier than those in the left picture tells you right off the bat that the perspective is from a higher point in the right picture" LOL. Or it tells you that flimsy narrow-gauge rails are not engineered the same as rails for a main line. Yes they do look skinnier, because they are narrow-gauge rails! |
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 12, 2021 5:43:04 GMT
The rails are looking pretty skinny and flimsy in this picture as well:  It's hard to fathom how this flimsy, narrow gauge railway with irregular sleepers should have been possibly capable of transporting these DRB-52 engines pulling fully loaded passenger stock:  The skinniness/flimsiness of the rails is evidence that this is a metre-gauge industrial railway, it's not evidence that the photos were taken from some immensely different angle of view. |
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 12, 2021 15:40:52 GMT
You accept that, if the perspective is similar between the photographs, then my analysis works. All you have to do is find a picture of a standard gauge railway that you estimate to be from a similar angle-of-view as this picture of the Treblinka spur:  For example, I found this photograph of a known metre-gauge railway from a very similar perspective:  I've shown that these railways form the same angle at the vanishing point:  Likewise, I found this photograph of the standard gauge railway at Sobibor:  As well as a photograph of the standard-gauge Malkinia-Siedlce line:  It can easily be shown that these photographs form the exact same angle at the vanishing point:  It is not merely some coincidence that the photograph of the Sobibor railway corresponds perfectly to the Malkinia-Siedlce line. They are the same gauge and the photographs are taken from a similar angle-of view, so this analysis works. On the other hand, the photograph of the Sobibor railway clearly forms a much wider angle at the vanishing point compared to the known metre-gauge railway above:  Simply put, this analysis shows that the Sobibor and Malkinia-Siedlce line are both standard gauge railways, which is a known fact, and it shows that it is a wider gauge than the Treblinka spur in that photograph. If you disagree with that conclusion, you must find a photograph of a known standard gauge railway that you believe is from a more similar angle than the comparisons I have used. If you find a photograph you want to compare, I will even do the analysis for you. I know for a fact that you will not be able to find a photograph of a standard gauge railway that is from the same perspective that has the same angle at the vanishing point as this picture of the Treblinka spur in embedded in the road. But that is what you must do if you are insisting that the Treblinka spur is a standard-gauge railway like the Malkinia line, and this result I've presented is a consequence of the fact that the perspective is different, which it is not. |
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 12, 2021 15:48:04 GMT
The track on the left has the same width between its rails as the track on the right:  I measured that each fits the same number of rail-widths at lines intersecting the rail parallels and measuring the rail widths. I even used your own red line for the measurement on the left. So you are obviously not representing them correctly if you think you have shown differently. Do I need to go to all the trouble of showing and calculating this at different vertical points along different horizontals - deriving the vanishing point angle for each picture and correlating that with the perspective angle? You are mixing up the 3rd dimension picture angle with the 2-D vanishing point angle. It is as simple as that. |
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 12, 2021 16:04:14 GMT
You are also saying that EVERYONE is lying about the Treblinka gauge. Everyone. Why in the hell would everyone lie about this? Don't you think someone would look at the 2 tracks and say, "hey, this gauge is different than that one"?
What sane person would build a gauge different to the line it is connecting to? Where would the switchover occur?
The switchover is at the quarry - not the spur off the main line. If it were at the spur, there'd need to be a way of switching - AT THAT POINT[
Your delusions are great.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 12, 2021 16:10:38 GMT
Actually, the story goes that a "smaller shunting engine" pulled the carts to the camp. Even the start witness at the train station does not appear to claim that the trains went directly to T-II (because they could not have). So we know for a fact that the same steam engine which brought the wagons to Treblinka STATION or Malkinia was not the same as what actually went to the camp.
So it follows that this "smaller shunting engine" was actually a metre-gauge steam engine for use on the industrial line, which were most commonly narrow gauge. I am suggesting that this "smaller shunting engine" is an acknowledgment of an entirely separate metre-gauge train that went to/from TI/TII and Treblinka Station/Malkinia.
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 12, 2021 16:12:47 GMT
Actually, the story goes that a "smaller shunting engine" pulled the carts to the camp. So we know for a fact that the same steam engine which brought the wagons to Treblinka STATION or Malkinia was not the same as what actually went to the camp. So it follows that this "smaller shunting engine" was actually a metre-gauge steam engine for use on the industrial line, which were most commonly narrow gauge. I am suggesting that this "smaller shunting engine" is an acknowledgment of an entirely separate metre-gauge train that went to/from TI/TII and Treblinka Station/Malkinia. Yes, and I've always been confused about that. Wasn't it at Treblinka Station where that was done? Treblinka Station is along the main south line before the spur. There's also a parallel spur along T-II. I've never gotten straight in my head the exact procedure that was done. Apparently the shunting was done at Treblinka Station though. The point of this is that the main line and the spur line were the same gauge track. There's no switchover at the spur - unless you are postulating separate lines to Treblinka Station. |
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 12, 2021 16:18:28 GMT
The confusion is a result of the fact that the story-tellers knew the railway was not compatible with the trains. So the "shunting engine" story is cover for the fact that it was actually an entirely different train that serviced these areas. A train that would have been compatible with the gauge in these images of the Treblinka spur. Some sources say Treblinka station, others say Malkinia. The USHMM says Malkinia: encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/treblinkaHow could this industrial-gauge railway have reached Malkinia you ask? Aerial photographs show that there were in fact two bridges crossing the Bug, both which appear to have tracks:  This would be consistent with the conclusion that there were two lines servicing the area: a main line for passenger and military traffic, and an industrial line. The industrial line would have been a narrower gauge, and that was what serviced TI/TII, likely as well as other quarries in the vicinity (of which there are several). There are many disadvantages to using a standard gauge railway for mines- particularly cost and mobility. This image shows that there could easily have been a track crossing the Bug all the way to Malkinia. The whole "smaller shunting engine" story is cover for the fact that these camps were serviced by an industrial railway, not a passenger main line. The photographs of the Treblinka spur correspond to that conclusion. |
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 12, 2021 16:25:38 GMT
I'm going to look into it again later but I'm guessing that the shunting was done to PUSH the 20 cars into the T-II spur and then PULL them back out after they were unloaded.
IOW, the shunting was specifically for the T-II spur.
T-I probably had no such procedure.
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 12, 2021 16:40:55 GMT
Yeah, that encyclopedia was mistaken. The shunting was done at Treblinka station. The encyclopedia doesn't mention Treblinka Station at all because it is confusing Malkinia with Treblinka Station.
I'm going to ask SSF about this. They might have a ready answer.
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 12, 2021 16:52:27 GMT
From here it has this map:  which says that "Malkinia-Siedice RR is Dual Track to Spur for Extermination Camp". So it might've been Malkinia that did the shunting. I suspect this site is mistaken as well. I'm pretty sure Treblinka Station was the shunting point. |
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Post by Venatแปr on Nov 12, 2021 17:09:46 GMT
You are also saying that EVERYONE is lying about the Treblinka gauge. Everyone. Why in the hell would everyone lie about this? Don't you think someone would look at the 2 tracks and say, "hey, this gauge is different than that one"? What sane person would build a gauge different to the line it is connecting to? Where would the switchover occur? The switchover is at the quarry - not the spur off the main line. If it were at the spur, there'd need to be a way of switching - AT THAT POINT[
Your delusions are great. I think it is the rabbit with the delusions. Some place I have been to have a standard gauge of 1067mm which looks like the following  Many coal mines, forestry companies, harbor boards and other industrial enterprises built and operated their own railways, tramways or ropeways. The most extensive of these were bush tramways, some of which were as long and busy as the main railways rural branch lines. These railways were often of a different gauge with hundreds of sidings (now disappeared), their own locomotives. The transfer of goods took place at the sidings and transferred to the main railways. The reasons for this are simple. Back in the day, it was much cheaper to build a narrow 800mm gauge than a proper one; the tracks were not designed for passengers and not up to the standard necessary. Labor was cheap and moving the goods gave people a job. |
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 12, 2021 17:23:17 GMT
From here it has this map: which says that "Malkinia-Siedice RR is Dual Track to Spur for Extermination Camp". So it might've been Malkinia that did the shunting. I suspect this site is mistaken as well. I'm pretty sure Treblinka Station was the shunting point. The alternative explanation is that there was no "shunting" from Malkinia or Treblinka station, and that this "shunting" from Malkinia was actually an industrial railway with a different gauge that serviced various industrial centers in the zone, including the quarry at TI and TII. The "smaller shunting engine" is just an acknowledgement of an entirely different train. How bizarre is it that TII was supposedly created for the sole purpose of exterminating Jews, but they didn't even build a facility capable of accommodating full transports. Instead they supposedly sat all those Jews right there at these busy train stations while they were busy gassing the rest, 20 wagons at a time brought by the "smaller shunting engine." It's incomprehensible. |
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Post by blake121666 on Nov 12, 2021 17:25:29 GMT
If the T1 spur were different gauge, there'd be no reason for anyone to lie about that. And anyone looking at it would be able to immediately tell.
What is the point in alleging that no one has noticed this gauge difference?
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Nov 12, 2021 17:31:02 GMT
The difference in gauge was noticed, and that's where the "smaller shunting engine" fills the role of avoiding the absurd notion that those DRB-52 engines traveled on this flimsy, narrow track.
The railway was also destroyed, it likely would have been preserved and documented by investigators if it were consistent with the story. Luckily that soviet photographer caught that 1944 image of the Spur, without that the state of the railway would have been lost to history.
You are also ignoring the fact that the Treblinka spur pre-existed T-II, and it's completely logical for an industrial spur servicing a quarry to be narrow gauge rather than the standard gauge of a main line, as Venator has explained to you.
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