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Post by Prudent_Regret on Dec 8, 2021 16:32:45 GMT
The spur did not connect to the main line because it was not the same gauge as the main line. The spur in the photographs in question was an industrial-gauge railway that connected to Malkinia. There were in fact two crossings over the Bug and not just one crossing: Likely one of these crossings was a road-bridge with a tramway for industrial haulage and local passenger traffic through the villages. I think this narrow-gauge tramway took this route through Poniatowo to the quarry camps: Original image without the annotations: Notice how the "road" through Poniatowo crosses above the Treblinka station in that S shape, which would have been unnecessary for a road but necessary for a railway. There are also unidentified man-made structures north of Treblinka station in this photograph.
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Post by been_there on Dec 11, 2021 12:09:40 GMT
Iโm not yet convinced of the accuracy of your evidence that the spur line was a narrow gauge track.
So, some questions for you PR: Q1.How do you think prisoners would have been taken to the T1 penal camp from all over Poland, if the spur line was a different gauge of rail track? Off-loading them at Malkinia and marching them seems to me to be not a very good idea.
Q2. How would gravel be taken from T1 to anywhere else if the spur line was a different gauge of rail track?? It seems a rather labour-intensive system to load wagons with gravel on a narrow guage railway, move it a couple of miles on that track to Malkinia and then have to transfer it to wide-gauge railway wagons??
Q3. If T2 was the extermination camp with gas chambers where just in the year 1942 from 22nd July to 12th September, supposedly 265,000 Jews were transported by train from the Warsaw Ghetto, how were these people transported from Malkinia to T2?
The official holocaust narrative maintains that the Treblinka 2 camp was disguised as a regular railway station, complete with made-up train schedules, a fake train-station clock with hands painted on it, names of destinations, a fake ticket window. If this was accurate testimony, that refutes your narrow-guage spur line contention.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 11, 2021 18:12:05 GMT
Iโm not yet convinced of the accuracy of your evidence that the spur line was a narrow gauge track. I think this is still work in progress but it is interesting. Not everything discussed is about disproving mass murder but knowing more about the real history. I feel knowledge of this quarry would be of profound interest. There is evidence that the Reich built a new spur to the location of the Malkinia Siedlce line while the camp was being built; this was just used for backing in a few wagons at a time so would not need to be of the same standard as a main line. This does not mean that the quarry did not use narrow gauge tracks; it is known they did as shown in the Quarry photo below. Treblinka arbeitslager I am also interested in those stone structures with cables on them. The guys are smiling so I think that speaks volumes.
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Post by been_there on Dec 11, 2021 19:29:16 GMT
Iโm not yet convinced of the accuracy of your evidence that the spur line was a narrow gauge track. I think this is still work in progress but it is interesting. Not everything discussed is about disproving mass murder but knowing more about the real history. I feel knowledge of this quarry would be of profound interest. There is evidence that the Reich built a new spur to the location of the Malkinia Siedlce line while the camp was being built; this was just used for backing in a few wagons at a time so would not need to be of the same standard as a main line. This does not mean that the quarry did not use narrow gauge tracks; it is known they did as shown in the Quarry photo below. Treblinka arbeitslager I am also interested in those stone structures with cables on them. The guys are smiling so I think that speaks volumes. Yes, I agree: definitely a very interesting line of enquiry plus understandably a โwork in progressโ. The gravel quarry and its spur line off from the main Malkinia-Siedice railway line was built BEFORE the 1930โs. It was added as part of a business enterprise, so it needed to be connected to most of the major cities in central Poland. The quarry was owned and operated by the Polish industrialist Marian ลopuszyลski. It was he who added the 6 kilometre (3.7 mile) railway track to the pre-existing Malkinia-Siedice railway line. I therefore canโt see it would make any sense โ either practically, business-wise or economically โ for ลopuszyลski to build a narrow-gauge track that couldnโt join that wide-gauge track. Nor can I see โ if he had built a narrow-gaugevtrack โ that it would make any sense for the occupying Third Reich to choose this as a location for either a penal camp, a transit camp or a supposed extermination camp if that couldnโt be reached by normal gauge rail-freight.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 11, 2021 19:44:06 GMT
I therefore canโt see it would make any sense โ either practically, business-wise or economically โ for ลopuszyลski to build a narrow-gauge track that couldnโt join that wide-gauge track. In my limited experience from old mining and sawmill railways, very few of them had tracks of the same gauge as the standard railway for the country, most were narrower; this was for economics and the layout of the country. The small train (steam or diesel) would haul the coal wagons (or logs) a few km or so to the main railway siding where the goods would be transferred to standard gauge wagons. Today many years later, those tracks and trains have gone, but the same operation is continued with trucks and cranes.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Dec 14, 2021 15:32:09 GMT
I think this is still work in progress but it is interesting. Not everything discussed is about disproving mass murder but knowing more about the real history. I feel knowledge of this quarry would be of profound interest. There is evidence that the Reich built a new spur to the location of the Malkinia Siedlce line while the camp was being built; this was just used for backing in a few wagons at a time so would not need to be of the same standard as a main line. This does not mean that the quarry did not use narrow gauge tracks; it is known they did as shown in the Quarry photo below. Treblinka arbeitslager I am also interested in those stone structures with cables on them. The guys are smiling so I think that speaks volumes. Yes, I agree: definitely a very interesting line of enquiry plus understandably a โwork in progressโ. The gravel quarry and its spur line off from the main Malkinia-Siedice railway line was built BEFORE the 1930โs. It was added as part of a business enterprise, so it needed to be connected to most of the major cities in central Poland. The quarry was owned and operated by the Polish industrialist Marian ลopuszyลski. It was he who added the 6 kilometre (3.7 mile) railway track to the pre-existing Malkinia-Siedice railway line. I therefore canโt see it would make any sense โ either practically, business-wise or economically โ for ลopuszyลski to build a narrow-gauge track that couldnโt join that wide-gauge track. Nor can I see โ if he had built a narrow-gaugevtrack โ that it would make any sense for the occupying Third Reich to choose this as a location for either a penal camp, a transit camp or a supposed extermination camp if that couldnโt be reached by normal gauge rail-freight. It was more common for industrial railways to be narrower than standard gauge. Narrower gauge rails can make tighter turns which is useful in accessing industrial areas, and they are cheaper to build. This quarry at TI was also only 1 quarry among a network of quarries and lumberyards in the vicinity. If you look at aerial photographs or satellite imagery today you see several quarries and lumberyards throughout the area. So they could have either built a spur for each and every industrial area and connected all the individual spurs to the main line, and shared the main line with passenger and military traffic, or there was an industrial-gauge tramway that connected these industrial areas to Malkina. At Malkinia this material could have been collected and stored from the entire area of quarries and lumberyards and then transported to its final destination on the main line. Connecting every single individual quarry and lumberyard to the main line makes less sense than having a dedicated industrial-gauge tramway to connect the entire network to the Malkinia junction. The fact that this spur was built before the 1930's only suggests that it was not built to serve as a main line for passenger traffic. It was built to haul material for the quarry, and that would make more sense for an industrial-gauge railway. Such a railway also would have served local passenger traffic through the nearby villages. Tramways were very common in pre-war Poland and the industrial tramway/railway was like the same to serve a function of local public transportation as well. Today there is a bus route exactly where I am suggesting this metre-gauge tramway ran. Most importantly, I've shown that the images of the Treblinka spur are not a standard gauge railway. That analysis stands. The railway in those images is simple not the same gauge as the Malkinia-Siedlce line. For that matter, there are accounts of a narrow gauge railway in both TI and TII (where the rails are specifically referred to as "from the trolley".) It is also said that a "smaller shunting engine" brought the wagons to the camps, which is likely an account of a smaller steam engine that ran on the narrow-gauge railway. All this evidence suggests that this was an industrial-gauge tramway, and not a standard-gauge main line for mass passenger traffic.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Dec 14, 2021 15:34:36 GMT
I therefore canโt see it would make any sense โ either practically, business-wise or economically โ for ลopuszyลski to build a narrow-gauge track that couldnโt join that wide-gauge track. In my limited experience from old mining and sawmill railways, very few of them had tracks of the same gauge as the standard railway for the country, most were narrower; this was for economics and the layout of the country. The small train (steam or diesel) would haul the coal wagons (or logs) a few km or so to the main railway siding where the goods would be transferred to standard gauge wagons. Today many years later, those tracks and trains have gone, but the same operation is continued with trucks and cranes. Exactly, it makes less sense to connect every single individual lumberyard and quarry to the main line that it does to connect all the production to a single point in Malkinia where it could be stored and transported to its final destination.
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