Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 1, 2021 10:21:41 GMT
You have been told before, that there is evidence of two narrow gauge railways, one inside TII and one at the quarry. The source you link to, states where the rails came from; "The โtrolleyโ to which Stangl is referring was a small-gauge track laid from the gas chambers to the burial pits. On this track, carts loaded with remains were pushed along by prisoners" Your attempt to find something interesting has failed.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 1, 2021 10:29:43 GMT
You have been told before, that there is evidence of two narrow gauge railways, one inside TII and one at the quarry. The source you link to, states where the rails came from; "The โtrolleyโ to which Stangl is referring was a small-gauge track laid from the gas chambers to the burial pits. On this track, carts loaded with remains were pushed along by prisoners" Your attempt to find something interesting has failed. There is serious doubt about the location of TII, yet you ramble on as though you know; you do not. Yad Vashem has placed this image as the site of Treblinka II. linkTreblinka, Poland, A German aerial photograph, probably of the camp's area, 16/04/1944.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 2, 2021 9:16:47 GMT
There's one other conclusion I am now leaning towards, which is that this "spur" is for a trolley or tramway rather than a railroad. I saw something interesting on HDOT: link photographic document of Treblinka: prisoners of the "Straflager" As the spur line (Hardly a spur) finally extended from Malkinia to the Treblinka camps, there would be no need for interaction at the Treblinka railway station. Yet some witnesses claim the trains stopped at Treblinka station.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 2, 2021 16:37:08 GMT
You have been told before, that there is evidence of two narrow gauge railways, one inside TII and one at the quarry. The source you link to, states where the rails came from; "The โtrolleyโ to which Stangl is referring was a small-gauge track laid from the gas chambers to the burial pits. On this track, carts loaded with remains were pushed along by prisoners" Your attempt to find something interesting has failed. There is serious doubt about the location of TII, yet you ramble on as though you know; you do not. The camp near to Treblinka labour camp and quarry, on the spur line from Treblinka station, near to Treblinka village, as described by numerous local witnesses and shown on a aerial photo of 1944, is the TII camp. The caption is "Treblinka, Poland, A German aerial photograph, probably of the camp's area" That is not a claim it a photo of TII. Here is the same site's other aerial photo photos.yadvashem.org/photo-details.html?language=en&item_id=4070447&ind=0The caption for that is "Treblinka, Poland, A German aerial photograph of the camp site and its surrounding, September 1944." Not the difference in captions between "camp's area" and "camp site".
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Dec 2, 2021 17:36:03 GMT
There is serious doubt about the location of TII, yet you ramble on as though you know; you do not. The camp near to Treblinka labour camp and quarry, on the spur line from Treblinka station, near to Treblinka village, as described by numerous local witnesses and shown on a aerial photo of 1944, is the TII camp. The caption is "Treblinka, Poland, A German aerial photograph, probably of the camp's area" That is not a claim it a photo of TII. Here is the same site's other aerial photo photos.yadvashem.org/photo-details.html?language=en&item_id=4070447&ind=0The caption for that is "Treblinka, Poland, A German aerial photograph of the camp site and its surrounding, September 1944." Not the difference in captions between "camp's area" and "camp site". What's most significant is that the archivists who analyzed that photograph considered it to have likely been the location of *some sort of camp.* If there was a camp there, which YV seems to think there was after analyzing the photograph, then it is far more logical for that camp to have received deportation transports given the camp would have been directly on the railroad on the Warsaw-Bialystok line. I suspect that a camp here or elsewhere in Malkinia (there are a number of potential areas) received most of the deportees who did more than just pass through. Confiscated belongings (and some number of passengers) were transported to T-II on the industrial-gauge tramway, and those transports were the basis for the T-II extermination camp rumors. Rumors of closed-goods wagons packed with hundreds of Jews each being sent to gas chambers were likely filled with goods for delousing, sorting, and storage as part of Aktion Reinhardt. Like the warehouse of shoes and clothing were the basis for extermination claims at Majdanek.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 2, 2021 17:37:14 GMT
The camp near to Treblinka labour camp and quarry, on the spur line from Treblinka station, near to Treblinka village, as described by numerous local witnesses and shown on a aerial photo of 1944, is the TII camp. Note the difference in captions between "camp's area" and "camp site". The photo supplied by Nessie shows the general area of Wolka Okraglik. The 1944 Luftwaffe photo I have produced says: Treblinka, Poland, A German aerial photograph, probably of the camp's area , 16/04/1944.
I think it is quite clear what "probably of the camps area" means. This image is some 8km from the photo Nessie has produced and no where near the area of his photo. What other information is there that this place could be the "Tremblinka of terror" (apart from Joseph Hirtreiter claim he worked at Malkinia) Here is a post taken from Treblinka II location.
Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, says: The current TII is 4km south east of the village of Treblinka not North West as indicated above. The camp is not rectangular either, nor is it 400m x 600m. However, 4km NE of Treblinka railway station is the Malkinia railway Junction. This area has the dimensions specified in the above encyclopedia.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Dec 2, 2021 17:50:02 GMT
Interestingly, that area is still remarkably identical to how it was in this 1944 photograph: The railroads are even still present where they are in the image, and this area is actually covered by Google Street view. Here's an image from the ground of some tracks branching from the inner loop of the junction: Now THIS looks like an area which was capable of receiving mass transports, unlike the flimsy industrial-gauge tramway leading to "T-II".
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 2, 2021 18:04:24 GMT
The aerial photo showing TII in 1944
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 4, 2021 6:53:59 GMT
The aerial photo showing TII in 1944 Thank you Nessie, this does indeed give an excellent high resolution photo of the current camp called TII. This TII may not be the Treblinka described by Yankel Wiernik. (A Year in Treblinka).
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 4, 2021 7:31:52 GMT
I suspect that a camp here or elsewhere in Malkinia (there are a number of potential areas) received most of the deportees who did more than just pass through. Confiscated belongings (and some number of passengers) were transported to T-II on the industrial-gauge tramway, and those transports were the basis for the T-II extermination camp rumors. Rumors of closed-goods wagons packed with hundreds of Jews each being sent to gas chambers were likely filled with goods for delousing, sorting, and storage as part of Aktion Reinhardt. Like the warehouse of shoes and clothing were the basis for extermination claims at Majdanek. Analysis of the photo shows roads etc which fit very early maps of inmates. The location given by the Holocaust Encyclopedia is clear and well defined. North in those days is somehow using a faulty standard. . I am unsure why North back then is 90 degrees SE of true north (more or less) professional surveyors made the same error. This location if we are correct, which I believe we are, would be ideal for a transit camp. Looking closely a rail loop can be seen leaving the "extermination area" to link with the northern line. I believe Wierniks first map was the correct one and fits in with the new information in most areas. It is clear there was also a judenlager near the quarry; this is evidenced by Marian Olszuk. I now suspect that because this was a judenlager it was claimed all the transports to Treblinka went there when in fact only a few did; the location on the Malkinia loop from a strategic point of view would be perfect. While this begs the question "where did they go"; it is clear that the loop has 4 directions, with proper railways, not the substandard loop at the Quarry camps.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 4, 2021 10:51:29 GMT
The aerial photo showing TII in 1944 Thank you Nessie, this does indeed give an excellent high resolution photo of the current camp called TII. This TII may not be the Treblinka described by Yankel Wiernik. (A Year in Treblinka). His description in the book matches his second map, which match other maps of that camp. His descriptions of the buildings also match other witnesses, including where they locate the gas chambers, the remains of which were later found by archaeologists. How much the witness descriptions match is shown here;
That source also shows plans for the gas chambers. It is Wiernik's early plan of the gas chambers, that misses out most of the camp, but includes the railway line next to the camp, that you have been using to suggest TII was not located in Treblinka, but was instead located in Malkinia.
If anything, that early plan of the gas chambers, spoils PRs claims a narrow gauge railway ran past TII, as it clearly shows it was a main line, which would mean a standard gauge.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 4, 2021 18:07:10 GMT
His description in the book matches his second map, which match other maps of that camp. His descriptions of the buildings also match other witnesses, including where they locate the gas chambers, the remains of which were later found by archaeologists. That source also shows plans for the gas chambers. It is Wiernik's early plan of the gas chambers, that misses out most of the camp, but includes the railway line next to the camp, that you have been using to suggest TII was not located in Treblinka, but was instead located in Malkinia. If anything, that early plan of the gas chambers, spoils PRs claims a narrow gauge railway ran past TII, as it clearly shows it was a main line, which would mean a standard gauge. I made it quite clear it was the first map that is of interest as this was done prior to "corruption" when it was decided by the underground that all information on "Treblinka" should be standardized. While most of what he wrote is emotional nonsense, in most tall tales there is some element of truth. He does not say he was at TII but merely Treblinka. The remains of gas chambers have not been found by archaeologist; the best that can be ascertained are building ruins. This thread is not about the relevance of poor archaeology unless there is better evidence, nor is it about gas chambers. The camp next a railway clearly stating the Warsaw Bialystok main trunk line is a dead giveaway as well as his indication of North, which for some reason the compasses face East. If aligned with the railway line of the Siedlce line his arrow north is in fact facing south. He spent a whole year in this place so one would gather he knew what railway line he was on. It was certainly NOT the Siedlce line.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 4, 2021 18:15:38 GMT
His description in the book matches his second map, which match other maps of that camp. His descriptions of the buildings also match other witnesses, including where they locate the gas chambers, the remains of which were later found by archaeologists. That source also shows plans for the gas chambers. It is Wiernik's early plan of the gas chambers, that misses out most of the camp, but includes the railway line next to the camp, that you have been using to suggest TII was not located in Treblinka, but was instead located in Malkinia. If anything, that early plan of the gas chambers, spoils PRs claims a narrow gauge railway ran past TII, as it clearly shows it was a main line, which would mean a standard gauge. I made it quite clear it was the first map that is of interest as this was done prior to "corruption" when it was decided by the underground that all information on "Treblinka" should be standardized. That first map is a plan of the gas chambers, where he may have believed the camp was on the main line, rather than a spur. Information on Treblinka has not been standardised. The Wiernik gas chamber plan shows the camp on a main line, which is evidence against PR's claim it was a narrow gauge railway.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 4, 2021 18:28:00 GMT
The Wiernik gas chamber plan shows the camp on a main line, which is evidence against PR's claim it was a narrow gauge railway. Just talk about buildings instead of gas chambers; you do not know what they are, just what is alleged. As most camps were next to railway lines, I do not think this revelation is of great significance except for the name of the line; in this case it says Warsaw-Bialystok. PR has never said that the Siedlce line was narrow gauge. He is talking about the spur line from Malkinia to The Quarry.
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Post by Sandhurst on Dec 7, 2021 17:32:46 GMT
I am confused a little about the apparent nature of the "spur line" to Treblinka II due to what seems like conflicting reports. I am wondering where the railway siding or spur connected to the main line. Here is a report by Franciszek Zabecki, the Treblinka station master. link Yankel WiernikVassily Grossman
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