𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸
🕵️
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎
Posts: 1,457 
|
Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 14, 2023 22:40:33 GMT
I have and saw you tried to use evidence of camps that closed over a year before the transport being discussed. You are dodging that you have no evidence that transport went to a Belzec camp other than the AR camp at Belzec. I do not wish to discuss the Belzec camp at this stage but stick to the document. If the Jews being sent to Belzec was for the purposes of extermination and not labour then I see little reasons why the following action occurred. Why shoot those who could travel when they were going to be popped off anyhow. This was clearly culling perhaps 14f13. On October 31, 1942, the Einsatzkommando of Sicherungsbezirk Nord reports the arrest (but not shooting!) of 20 Jews for having “left resettlement location without permission and jumped from transport trains. The “resettlement location” was the ghetto of Rawa Ruska, 27 km away from Belzec; it continued to exist seven months after the opening of the presumed extermination camp! Mattogno says: It is clear that transports went to the Ukraine while others were placed into the judenlagers as Mattogno indicated above. Here is a map showing the ZALFJ in the GG in 1942. Rawa Ruska (camp 2924) for instance opened the 15 Dec 1942; General Government, District Galicia (1941-1944), closed June 1943. Rawa Ruska is 27 km from Belzec. The prisoners were "transferred" to the forced labor camp for Jews in Lemberg. Janowskastrasse. The report discussed had the transport to Belzec dated 14 September, 1942 some 3 months earlier than the opening of Rawa Ruska. One of the labour camps in the Belzec region was allegedly turned in to an extermination facility in 1941. . This is based largely on the work of fiction by Rudolf Reder who mentioned 3 million victims. The value of his testimony is limited. There were 13 Zwangarbeitslager für Juden in Lemberg, I failed to notice these in my research into Lutzk due to the spelling Львів. - HKP Janowskastrasse 120. Opened Autumn 1942 The prisoners were "transferred" to the forced labor camp for Jews in Lemberg, Janowskastrasse 134 at an unspecified time.
- DAW Janowskastrasse 132. Opened 1942, closed October 43
- DAW Janowskastrasse 132. Opened march 42, Closed October 43
- HKP Janowskastrasse 120, Opened Autumn 42. The prisoners were "transferred" to the forced labor camp for Jews in Lemberg, Janowskastrasse 134 at an unspecified time.
- Janowskastrasse 134. Opened spring 1943. Closed 20 Nov 1943
- Janowskastrasse 134. Opened 11 Jan 41 closed 19 Nov 43
- Carpathian Oil Ltd Opened 8 October 1943
- OAW Bahnhofstrasse. Opened Nov 42 Closed 5 July 43 The prisoners were "transferred" to the forced labor camp for Jews in Lemberg, Janowskastrasse 134.
- OAW Bahnhofstrasse. same info as above, men
- Lemberg-Rzesna Polska
- Czwartakowstrasse closed 16 March 43
- Lwów-Persenkowka 42 -43
- Lwów-Persenkowka women
|
|
Nessie
✍️
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
Posts: 5,204
|
Post by Nessie on Jan 15, 2023 7:06:20 GMT
I have and saw you tried to use evidence of camps that closed over a year before the transport being discussed. You are dodging that you have no evidence that transport went to a Belzec camp other than the AR camp at Belzec. I do not wish to discuss the Belzec camp at this stage but stick to the document. The document is about a transport to Belzec, so your desire to exclude discussion about the camp makes no sense, especially when you consider your next sentence... You are now discussing the camp. That was a mass shooting by the EG in Ukraine, in Kolomea, about 250km from Belzec. The EG action involved mass shootings, not sending Jews to the AR camps. The EG and AR actions were separate, and you are at least correct when you admit they involved "culling". That Jews in Ukraine were being shot at the same time other Jews in the General Government were sent to Belzec, is no reason to think that Belzec could not therefore be a death camp. What that shows is, not every single Jew who lived in the area around Belzec was sent to Belzec. You have noticed that many Jews were sent to forced labour camps instead. You may have also noticed that throughout 1941-3, the situation was complex and as many witnesses reported, it appeared to be luck as to whether the transports they were put on to went to a labour camp, or a death camp.
You will also note from the list of camps you copied, that most had closed by the end of 1943. That is consistent with a drop in the Jewish population, not a resettlement. As Korherr reported, the Jewish population was falling. It has been repeatedly pointed out to you that if the Nazis were not mass killing, then millions of Jews would have been liberated at the end of the war. Instead, that number was in the hundreds of thousands.
|
|
𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸
🕵️
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎
Posts: 1,457
|
Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 15, 2023 7:26:43 GMT
You will also note from the list of camps you copied, that most had closed by the end of 1943. That is consistent with a drop in the Jewish population, not a resettlement. As Korherr reported, the Jewish population was falling. It has been repeatedly pointed out to you that if the Nazis were not mass killing, then millions of Jews would have been liberated at the end of the war. Instead, that number was in the hundreds of thousands. You have been told that resettlement and relocation in German mean the same thing. The Jews were relocated. Here is the trend again in a map, just for you.  Let it sink in.  Zwangarbeitslager für Juden as the war progressed. |
|
Nessie
✍️
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
Posts: 5,204
|
Post by Nessie on Jan 15, 2023 7:37:30 GMT
You will also note from the list of camps you copied, that most had closed by the end of 1943. That is consistent with a drop in the Jewish population, not a resettlement. As Korherr reported, the Jewish population was falling. It has been repeatedly pointed out to you that if the Nazis were not mass killing, then millions of Jews would have been liberated at the end of the war. Instead, that number was in the hundreds of thousands. You have been told that resettlement and relocation in German mean the same thing. The Jews were relocated. There is no evidence AR relocated the vast majority of Jews after they arrived at the AR camps. As has been repeatedly been pointed out to you, there is evidence of regular mass transports arriving at those camps, and no evidence of regular mass transports back out. What was the Jewish camp population in each of those years? The evidence shows that 1941-4, the Nazis cleared Jews from their homes to labour or death camps and as the Soviets advanced 1944-5, the Nazis moved the few hundred thousand Jews left west, to be liberated by the Allies. The single largest camp liberation was at Bergen-Belzen in 1945, of c60,000 people, not all of whom were Jewish. The decline of the Jewish population is consistent with a policy to eradicate them, not relocate. |
|
𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸
🕵️
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎
Posts: 1,457
|
Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 15, 2023 7:50:55 GMT
The evidence shows that 1941-4, the Nazis cleared Jews from their homes to labour or death camps and as the Soviets advanced 1944-5, the Nazis moved the few hundred thousand Jews left west, to be liberated by the Allies. The single largest camp liberation was at Bergen-Belzen in 1945, of c60,000 people, not all of whom were Jewish. The decline of the Jewish population is consistent with a policy to eradicate them, not relocate. Thank you for quoting the narrative once again. Bergen Belsen was a konzentrationslager not a zwangarbeitslager. People simply walked out the work camps as the Russians arrived and the demoralized guards fled. I gave an account of this previously. |
|
Nessie
✍️
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
Posts: 5,204
|
Post by Nessie on Jan 15, 2023 11:26:54 GMT
|
|
𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸
🕵️
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎
Posts: 1,457
|
Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 15, 2023 19:09:32 GMT
It is what is evidenced to have happened. If there was evidence we would not be having this conversation. Millions existed after the war. If you wish to discuss the numbers then do this elsewhere. I feel like rehashing Untermeyers slight of hand again. The forced marches were mainly from Konzentrationslager where there were options. If all were forced marched from Birkenau then the Russians would have had no one to liberate. The truth is that most of the Jews were in labour camps and not konzentrationslager. Like the incident I wrote about the guards, non SS, simply fled and they walked out. Work camps for Jews were not SS, in fact many were not even guarded. |
|
Nessie
✍️
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
Posts: 5,204
|
Post by Nessie on Jan 15, 2023 20:29:57 GMT
It is what is evidenced to have happened. If there was evidence we would not be having this conversation. One of your MOs is to pretend there is no evidence, when there is. There is ample evidence of forced marches by the Nazis. It does not matter what title a camp had. The Soviets found mostly empty camps, or with only those unable to march left behind. The largest liberations were by the Allies at the camps in the west. Name a work camp that was not even guarded. |
|
𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸
🕵️
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎
Posts: 1,457
|
Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 15, 2023 21:12:52 GMT
One of your MOs is to pretend there is no evidence, when there is. There is ample evidence of forced marches by the Nazis. Evidencing will not be discussed on this thread. Do this on your own board. It does matter as you have conjured an image of camps with barbed with and towers, machine guns and guards. Those are konzentrationslager. Most of the work camps were make shift temporary arrangements, in halls, churches, barns etc. There were guards for the greater part they were not present. I wrote that in Belzec there were 4 guards for 4 thousand workers over a 6 km distance. In another labour camp this Jewish witness said: This was typical of the camps, zwangarbeitslager für Juden. |
|
Nessie
✍️
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
Posts: 5,204
|
Post by Nessie on Jan 16, 2023 4:59:49 GMT
One of your MOs is to pretend there is no evidence, when there is. There is ample evidence of forced marches by the Nazis. Evidencing will not be discussed on this thread. Do this on your own board. You are trying to dodge you cannot evidence your claims, and that the claims made by historians are well evidenced. Where is your evidence that was typical? You have not even linked to the source of that evidence. You cannot evidence mass resettlement in Eastern Galicia, or anywhere else, at the end of the war. |
|
𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸
🕵️
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎
Posts: 1,457
|
Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 16, 2023 5:08:02 GMT
Where is your evidence that was typical? You have not even linked to the source of that evidence. You cannot evidence mass resettlement in Eastern Galicia, or anywhere else, at the end of the war. That pdf testimony was linked in another thread. I will not be constantly linking the material you fail to read. I mentioned you are misusing the word resettlement which in context means re-located. The maps showing the trends of all the camps to the West from late 42 is evidence. |
|
Nessie
✍️
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
Posts: 5,204
|
Post by Nessie on Jan 16, 2023 5:44:09 GMT
Where is your evidence that was typical? You have not even linked to the source of that evidence. You cannot evidence mass resettlement in Eastern Galicia, or anywhere else, at the end of the war. That pdf testimony was linked in another thread. I will not be constantly linking the material you fail to read. There are dozens of threads, with hundreds of posts and even more links. It is easy for you to add a link you already know about, in any thread where you use a quote. This thread is about resettlement, people are relocated to resettle them. The trend of camps to go west is evidence of what? |
|
𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸
🕵️
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎
Posts: 1,457
|
Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 16, 2023 5:53:36 GMT
This thread is about resettlement, people are relocated to resettle them. The trend of camps to go west is evidence of what? The thread topic is just the name of the report from the web site it was found. Your attempt to stay on topic is appreciated. The trend of camps to go west is evidence of mass movement of people for labour, specifically Jews. It is factual and a working hypothesis. When a link is given, read and save. |
|
Nessie
✍️
𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
Posts: 5,204
|
Post by Nessie on Jan 16, 2023 9:50:03 GMT
This thread is about resettlement, people are relocated to resettle them. The trend of camps to go west is evidence of what? The thread topic is just the name of the report from the web site it was found. Your attempt to stay on topic is appreciated. The trend of camps to go west is evidence of mass movement of people for labour, specifically Jews. It is factual and a working hypothesis. Why was there a movement west? How many Jews were moved west? How many were liberated in 1945? It is unreasonable for you to expect me to read every thread and save every link. Please provide a link to that witness. |
|
𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸
🕵️
𝕲𝖊𝖍𝖊𝖎𝖒𝖕𝖔𝖑𝖎𝖟𝖊𝖎
Posts: 1,457
|
Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 16, 2023 18:44:25 GMT
- Why was there a movement west?
- How many Jews were moved west?
- How many were liberated in 1945?
It is unreasonable for you to expect me to read every thread and save every link. Please provide a link to that witness. Of the estimated 85 million deaths of WWII, it is considered 30 million perished at the Eastern Front. The collapse of the Eastern Front was decisive in the outcome of that war. Both sides fought with demonic fury. Ordinary Germans knew by the end of 1943 that the war was lost. The main labour operators camp were civilians, though some were SS such as Schmelt. HASAG, Todt, Heinkel, Krupp, IG Farben are examples of the civilian contractors using Jewish labour. Many were also farms and multitudes of other contractors who hired Jews. Jews were paid (poorly perhaps) for their services (except by the miserly SS). Oskar Schindler was an example of a contractor. To answer the questions. - To move the places of production away from the Eastern front that was expected to collapse.
- Most of them
- Miss X
I uploaded the file above for interested readers as a simple search did not locate this on the net. This witness was discussed prior. |
|
Let it sink in.