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Post by Nessie on Jan 9, 2023 19:15:01 GMT
The only camp for which there is evidence of mass arrivals, is the AR camp, Belzec. There is a Belzec thread if you wish to post something of relevance. The OP centres around a document recording a mass transport to Belzec, when the AR camp was open and receiving mass transports from ghettos. I showed you a list of transports to the AR camp, which includes the transport referenced in that document. You have presented no evidence Jews were being sent to the Russian east in 1942 from any Belzec camp and the movement of Jews west was in late 1944 into 1945, as the Nazis fled the Soviets. Who were in those labour camps? Where did they come from? How many were there? So far, you cannot evidence that is where Jews sent to Belzec were being resettled. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 9, 2023 20:15:38 GMT
The OP centres around a document recording a mass transport to Belzec, when the AR camp was open and receiving mass transports from ghettos. I showed you a list of transports to the AR camp, which includes the transport referenced in that document. You have made the assumption it went to an AR camp. It went to the Belzec railway station as all trains do when going to Belzec. There was a huge influx of workers to the Belzec area resulting in new camps being built. This resulted in a number of new camps being set up for Jews in the Belzec area. The following camps were established: Bełżec-Dwór (Bełżec-Manor), Bełżec-Młyn (Bełżec-Mill), Bełżec-Parowozownia (Bełżec-Roundhouse), and the camps in Cieszanów, Lipsk, Płazów, and Dzików. I am not discussing the Belzec camps at the moment, but at least you acknowledge there were other camps in the Belzec area. They were all Zwangarbeitslager für Juden Belzec. You are making progress. The trend towards the west began in 1943 as the map below shows. You are writing off the cuff, knee jerk responses only. The trend of the labour camps has been written about before. Jews were in those labour camps hence the name zwangarbeitslager für Juden. It is clear that some of the Belzec Jews came from Galicia. In the German language the report is titled: Juden umsiedlung" in Ostgalizien. Umsiedlung mean relocated. For instance: If you used a google translator you get: Economic migrants overcome the difficulties of resettlement and legalization. It can also mean move. Mistranslation is causing the difficulties you are having when the sentences simply mean move or relocate. The word can be used for resettlement as well. Korherr used the word "evacuation" in his shortened report (DIE EVAKUIERUNG DER JUDEN). He did this as emigration was banned in the Reich at that time. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 10, 2023 9:21:56 GMT
The OP centres around a document recording a mass transport to Belzec, when the AR camp was open and receiving mass transports from ghettos. I showed you a list of transports to the AR camp, which includes the transport referenced in that document. You have made the assumption it went to an AR camp. .... Show me how I have made that assumption. An assumption is an acceptance without any evidence to prove the claim, so prove that I have no evidence that they went to the AR camp. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 10, 2023 20:28:01 GMT
You have made the assumption it went to an AR camp. .... Show me how I have made that assumption. An assumption is an acceptance without any evidence to prove the claim, so prove that I have no evidence that they went to the AR camp. This thread is about this particular transport. I agree its final destination was Belzec. Please show in the report where it mentions an AR camp. Belzec had multiple camps. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 11, 2023 10:49:05 GMT
Show me how I have made that assumption. An assumption is an acceptance without any evidence to prove the claim, so prove that I have no evidence that they went to the AR camp. This thread is about this particular transport. I agree its final destination was Belzec. Please show in the report where it mentions an AR camp. Belzec had multiple camps. You said "You have made the assumption it went to an AR camp...."
You are alleging that I am assuming where that report mentions Belzec, it is referring to the AR camp at Belzec. An assumption is where a claim is made that has no supporting evidence to prove the claim.
I am asking to you to prove I made that assumption, which you can do by showing that there is no evidence to support the claim that transport went to the AR at Belzec.
If you admit that you are wrong and there is evidence that transport went to the AR camp at Belzec, you can correct your claim and admit you were wrong to say I have made an assumption.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 12, 2023 4:06:43 GMT
Here is evidence of the Belzec area as a transit camp. No doubt these labourers would have been relieved of any valuables they may have had first.
Fritz Reuter had been in contact with Höfle 17 March 42; he wrote:
The only border near Belzec was the RKU, Galizien was part of the GG at that time. As we are discovering there were far more ZALFJs in the RKU than anyone previously thought.
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Post by Nessie on Jan 12, 2023 10:43:58 GMT
Here is evidence of the Belzec area as a transit camp. No doubt these labourers would have been relieved of any valuables they may have had first. Fritz Reuter had been in contact with Höfle 17 March 42; he wrote: The only border near Belzec was the RKU, Galizien was part of the GG at that time. As we are discovering there were far more ZALFJs in the RKU than anyone previously thought. You said "You have made the assumption it went to an AR camp.". You are accusing me of making an assumption, which is the suggestion I have no evidence the transports you suggest went to the "Belzec area" went to the Belzec AR camp. You then reference Hofle, who was one of the senior Nazis in charge of AR, and daily transports to Belzec. That is evidence the Belzec referred to is the AR camp, so you were wrong to claim I was making an assumption. There is also the eyewitness evidence from the Nazis who worked at the AR camp Belzec for mass arrivals and prisoners who were on those trains. I am not making an assumption, I am making an evidenced claim.
You are using the same tactic been-there, Werd, Bob and turnagain used, by making false claims about the evidence I have, to suggest it is me who lacks evidence. You do that to dodge your lack of evidence that there were daily mass transports back out of Belzec, and resettlement elsewhere.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 13, 2023 1:53:40 GMT
You do that to dodge your lack of evidence that there were daily mass transports back out of Belzec, and resettlement elsewhere. Please prove that this transport went to the Belzec AR camp. I am not discussing other transports at this stage. So far out of the 5 Belzec camps there is a 20% chance the passengers all arrived at the single location. It is possible they were divided up amongst all the camps. They could have been sent to the RKU. Notice that Höfle mentioned Belzec as a the destination before they were sent across the border. Korherr said they went across the border. There were camps in the RKU. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 13, 2023 7:46:33 GMT
You do that to dodge your lack of evidence that there were daily mass transports back out of Belzec, and resettlement elsewhere. Please prove that this transport went to the Belzec AR camp. I am not discussing other transports at this stage. So far out of the 5 Belzec camps there is a 20% chance the passengers all arrived at the single location. It is possible they were divided up amongst all the camps. They could have been sent to the RKU. Notice that Höfle mentioned Belzec as a the destination before they were sent across the border. Korherr said they went across the border. There were camps in the RKU. Yet again you are trying to suggest I am the one lacking evidence. You made a false claim that I was speculating, which you have dishonestly refused to correct and dodged.
You have presented no evidence that there were 5 camps that the Nazis called Belzec and your suggestion that each one could have received that mass transport, or it was divided, is speculation.
We know from Korherr that the official story was resettlement beyond the camp, but we also know that there is no evidence of 1.27 million Jews being resettled in the Lublin District, as Korherr was told, or anywhere else. To resettle so many people, in the RKU or anywhere else, without leaving any evidence is a physical impossibility. The EG were clearing the RKU of Jews, the policy was for the east to be Jew free, so your suggestion it was being resettled with Jews immediately after it was cleared of Jews, makes no sense and is not evidenced.
I have already shown you that the dates of the transport in the document match dates of that ghetto being cleared and people being sent to Belzec and the only camp that has evidence of mass arrivals is Belzec AR camp. That is the evidence to prove that transport went to Belzec AR camp and all your other suggestions are unevidenced speculation.
You try to dodge that by dishonestly claiming I am the one speculating.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 13, 2023 19:51:04 GMT
You have presented no evidence that there were 5 camps that the Nazis called Belzec and your suggestion that each one could have received that mass transport, or it was divided, is speculation. Evidence is presented now read the whole document. The Belzec camps are: I uploaded the pdf file just for you. Scroll down to page 9. THE COMPLEX OF LABOR CAMPS IN BEŁZEC The complex of labor camps in Bełżec and the surrounding area had a significant impact on the development of labor camps in the General Government, so their discussion is important for understanding the processes associated with the use of forced labor of Jews.28 Labor camps in Bełżec and the surrounding area have been created for fortification works, so-called Grenzgraben, between the rivers Bug and San, on a territory of several dozen kilometers
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Post by Nessie on Jan 14, 2023 9:02:22 GMT
You have presented no evidence that there were 5 camps that the Nazis called Belzec and your suggestion that each one could have received that mass transport, or it was divided, is speculation. Evidence is presented now read the whole document. The Belzec camps are: I uploaded the pdf file just for you. Scroll down to page 9. THE COMPLEX OF LABOR CAMPS IN BEŁZEC The complex of labor camps in Bełżec and the surrounding area had a significant impact on the development of labor camps in the General Government, so their discussion is important for understanding the processes associated with the use of forced labor of Jews.28 Labor camps in Bełżec and the surrounding area have been created for fortification works, so-called Grenzgraben, between the rivers Bug and San, on a territory of several dozen kilometers
linkThose camps were built to accommodate Jews removed from their homes, in 1940.
"In order to increase the number of workers, on August 14 to 16, 1940 mass roundups were held in various towns of Lublin District, as well as in other districts....The sudden arrival of thousands of workers to Bełżec as a result of raids"
The report goes on;
"CLOSURE OF LABOR CAMPS Most of the labor camps for Jews established in 1940 were seasonal camps,
which were designed to perform a variety of seasonal work in the open air.
Weather and climate determined the ability to perform such work. In Bełżec
camps, digging anti-tank ditches was possible until late autumn, but only before
the severe rain showers."
Labor camps created in 1940 were temporary. They were mostly estab-
lished in existing buildings where workers were placed. The tasks, for which
the camps were created, were seasonal field works. Such works could not be
performed during the winter, and the existence of the camps during this period
became redundant. According to the decision of the German authorities, all
labor camps in Warsaw District were closed on June 18, 1941.
All the Jews employed there were released and returned to their places of residence."
I have spoken to you before about chronology and that you need to prove camps were open and functioning at the times you claim they were. Here, yet again, you have failed and you are suggesting a transport from September 1942 may have gone to camps that had been closed by June 1941. You should apologise for your mistake and learn from it.
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Post by Ulios on Jan 14, 2023 9:14:39 GMT
I have spoken to you before about chronology and that you need to prove camps were open and functioning at the times you claim they were. Here, yet again, you have failed and you are suggesting a transport from September 1942 may have gone to camps that had been closed by June 1941. You should apologise for your mistake and learn from it. Notice the statement said: Development means more were created. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 14, 2023 9:38:01 GMT
I have spoken to you before about chronology and that you need to prove camps were open and functioning at the times you claim they were. Here, yet again, you have failed and you are suggesting a transport from September 1942 may have gone to camps that had been closed by June 1941. You should apologise for your mistake and learn from it. Notice the statement said: Development means more were created. A report about temporary labour camps in Belzec in 1941, was used to try and evidence a transport in September 1942 to Belzec had potentially gone to one of those camps.
I will wait for evidence to be produced of labour camps that were open in Belzec in September 1942 and the evidence that transport went to one of those labour camps.
I have already presented the evidence that transport went to the Belzec AR camp, here again; - the transport report tallies with a transport listed on the Belzec AR camp list of transports. Both have the same date and origin.
- AR was an action to clear ghettos and take people for processing at the AR camps, which is what the report describes. It is not a transport of workers to camps, it is a mass transport of all people, the same as witnesses describe about other ghetto clearances to AR camps.
- there is evidence from Hofle of mass arrivals at Belzec AR camp.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 14, 2023 18:33:49 GMT
the transport report tallies with a transport listed on the Belzec AR camp list of transports. Both have the same date and origin. This is identical to the Treblinka timelines that use the Fahrplananordnung documents to fabricate those figures. The Belzec figures you refer to are using that report. This is very circular. Using the report as evidence of the report. It has been established AR was a financial operation. There is an existing thread on this. I doubt if a single letter denotes anything. Höfle is referring to districts and the camps within the district at best. The central railway stations is his point of reference. There were a significant number of other labour camps in the area. Even the numerous Sobibor camps encroached the Belzec area. There were 40 thousand camps, some existing for a short while and then evaporating. Do some research. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 14, 2023 19:46:53 GMT
the transport report tallies with a transport listed on the Belzec AR camp list of transports. Both have the same date and origin. This is identical to the Treblinka timelines that use the Fahrplananordnung documents to fabricate those figures. The Belzec figures you refer to are using that report. This is very circular. Using the report as evidence of the report. No, the ghetto transport records which were used to compile the list of transports and the Nazi's own written report describing a transport, are separate documents. It cannot be only a financial operation, there has to be provision as to what to do with all the people who have had everything stolen from them. How do you know he was referring to districts, not camps? Witness, physical and circumstantial evidence narrows down the camps to three specific camps, B, S and T. I have and saw you tried to use evidence of camps that closed over a year before the transport being discussed. You are dodging that you have no evidence that transport went to a Belzec camp other than the AR camp at Belzec. |
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