Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2023 9:33:34 GMT
You have cherry-picked an instance where a train was split and you make the assumption "If 9 wagons loaded with 200 people in each..." so that 1800 were unloaded. But the report has 1,000 then being loaded, so at most the transport was reduced by 800 and furthermore; "The total number of Jews transported to Belzec on the resettlement train on September 10, 1942 was 8,205." The report details all the security measures to stop people from escaping, from nailing doors shut to how the train was guarded. It also describes how guard details were changed, which is another reason for the stops recorded on the Fahrplanordnungs, the guards were changed. By the end of 1942, some 1.27 million people had arrived at the AR camps, including Belzec. That report confirms that the vast majority who got on the transports, arrived at the AR camps. All the transports, apart from those designated to go to Auschwitz arrived at the train stations. It is the station name that is mentioned on the schedule documents. For those who ended up at Treblinka, this could be either TI or the Judenlager TII. Information has been obtained that there were three camps at Treblinka: Arbeitlsager TI, Zwangsarbeitslager für jüdische Männer Treblinka (gravel pit), Zwangsarbeitslager für jüdische Frauen Treblinka (agricultural work). (camps 3030, 3031). link. Deutschland-ein-denkmal.de have located these two camps between TII and Malkinia, near the Treblinka township. They were under the auspices of the TI quarry arbeitslager. All these camps were serviced by rail transports. The schedule documents simply has the railway station in the area as the final destination. Since the evidence of AR and mass arrivals at TII does not suit you, you are trying to fit the evidence around your hypothesis of people merely being cleared from the ghettos into various camps. You are cherry-picking one paragraph from a report, that when read in its entirety, is clear evidence of mass transports to Belzec, where the vast majority of people were kept secured on the trains and suffered terrible hardships. That 800 figure is assuming the 9 wagons had 1800 passengers, they could have contained less. Your attempts to infer what happened are obvious attempts to try and fit the evidence into your theory. A true investigator would follow the evidence and not try to fit it into a theory. |
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Post by Ulios on Jan 8, 2023 9:37:18 GMT
That 800 figure is assuming the 9 wagons had 1800 passengers, they could have contained less. Your attempts to infer what happened are obvious attempts to try and fit the evidence into your theory. A true investigator would follow the evidence and not try to fit it into a theory. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2023 10:25:32 GMT
That 800 figure is assuming the 9 wagons had 1800 passengers, they could have contained less. Your attempts to infer what happened are obvious attempts to try and fit the evidence into your theory. A true investigator would follow the evidence and not try to fit it into a theory. It was an estimate, and we already know, witnesses are not very good at estimating numbers. Where the report states;
"The total number of Jews transported to Belzec on the resettlement train on September 10, 1942 was 8,205."
Then we know that is a figure derived from counting and is more accurate. The report is evidence of mass transports of people under horrendous conditions, nailed into trains, that were guarded, where escapees were shot, where people died on board, that is part of the circumstantial evidence. It proves the Nazis did not care about the Jews and whether they lived or died and that the AR camps received mass transports.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2023 10:35:13 GMT
The report is also evidence why there were stops en route to the AR camp. They were used to pick up more Jews;
"In addition to the Jews found in Horodenka and Sniatyn, who had already been loaded into 10 wagons each by the Sipo, another 30 wagons were loaded in Kolomea."
Or, the train was stopped to repair it as the people tried to escape.
"When the train arrived in Stanislau, craftsmen from Stanislau
station and the railway security were present to carry out the necessary
repairs and also to take over the guarding of the train.
The work took 1 1/2 hours.
When the train continued after this time, when it stopped again
after a few stations, it turned out
that the Jews had broken out larger holes in several wagons and
that most of the barbed wire attached to the ventilation windows
on the outside had been torn off..."
Or, the trains were stopped, so the guards could switch relief;
"At 11.15 the train arrived in Lviv. Since no relief for the escort detail had arrived, the escort detail J. had to take over the guarding of the train to Belzec."
Only once did a stop involved people leaving the train and they were replaced with another 1000 people. The theory that each stop on the way to Belzec was to unload passengers is not backed by the evidence in the report.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 8, 2023 19:41:29 GMT
The theory that each stop on the way to Belzec was to unload passengers is not backed by the evidence in the report. No one implied that except you. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 8, 2023 19:46:12 GMT
excessive loading of most of the wagons with 180 to 200 Jews was so catastrophic that the situation became serious adversely affected the transport It was an estimate, and we already know, witnesses are not very good at estimating numbers. Where the report states; "The total number of Jews transported to Belzec on the resettlement train on September 10, 1942 was 8,205." Then we know that is a figure derived from counting and is more accurate. The report is evidence of mass transports of people under horrendous conditions, nailed into trains, that were guarded, where escapees were shot, where people died on board, that is part of the circumstantial evidence. It proves the Nazis did not care about the Jews and whether they lived or died and that the AR camps received mass transports.
I think if there are 40 wagons the person can count and calculate the average number in each wagon. Let me do it for you. 40 wagons....205 45...182 50...161 The only thing you can discern is the end point... Belzec station. The rest is speculation or in your case pure fantasy. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2023 19:52:32 GMT
The theory that each stop on the way to Belzec was to unload passengers is not backed by the evidence in the report. No one implied that except you. I posted this on the previous page in this thread, which is the last time you said that.
"This is proof that people transited from labour camp to labour camp by train. This is the reason why the trains stopped at these locations." |
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
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Post by Nessie on Jan 8, 2023 20:03:08 GMT
It was an estimate, and we already know, witnesses are not very good at estimating numbers. Where the report states; "The total number of Jews transported to Belzec on the resettlement train on September 10, 1942 was 8,205." Then we know that is a figure derived from counting and is more accurate. The report is evidence of mass transports of people under horrendous conditions, nailed into trains, that were guarded, where escapees were shot, where people died on board, that is part of the circumstantial evidence. It proves the Nazis did not care about the Jews and whether they lived or died and that the AR camps received mass transports.
I think if there are 40 wagons the person can count and calculate the average number in each wagon. Let me do it for you. 40 wagons....205 45...182 50...161 The only thing you can discern is the end point... Belzec station. The rest is speculation or in your case pure fantasy. Transports to Belzec
"Total March-December 1942 800,555"
"County of Kolomyja (Galicia). First deportation in September, 7-10, MG, Map 145 (8700), YVA LL/7 ( 8000). Second deportation: a further deportation (YVA LL/7) of 3000 Jews in the sub -district were deported on 19. 9. 42 to Janowska KZ and Belzec., See also YA who quotes on 17. 9. 42, 7000 deported from Kolomyja probably included the YVA ref. (3000). In Total for the September deportations are approximately 15, 000. See also TB, table 6, . Kolomyja was the holding transit ghetto for surrounding towns."
The report here is about the first deportation, Sept 7-10th;
"The action scheduled for September 7th, 1942 in Kolomea...The total number of Jews transported to Belzec on the resettlement train on September 10, 1942 was 8,205."
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 8, 2023 20:48:05 GMT
Here is what you said in this thread about the Fahrplanordnungs that covered the trains from the ghettos to the AR camps; People like yourself have constantly said that these transports went from A to B, with all intact. Here is evidence that some went to a labour camp. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 8, 2023 20:50:47 GMT
"The action scheduled for September 7th, 1942 in Kolomea...The total number of Jews transported to Belzec on the resettlement train on September 10, 1942 was 8,205." Belzec station. There was more than one camp in the Belzec area. All this resulted in over crowding and a break down in the Belzec Committee with new camps established in the area. |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jan 9, 2023 9:39:05 GMT
Here is what you said in this thread about the Fahrplanordnungs that covered the trains from the ghettos to the AR camps; People like yourself have constantly said that these transports went from A to B, with all intact. Here is evidence that some went to a labour camp. You have been arguing for some time that the stops on the Fahrplanordnungs were possibly to drop Jews off at labour camps. You were asked to find evidence of that and so far, you have found evidence a train was split and some sent to a camp and others put back onto the transport. The document you use as evidence also provides reasons why trains stopped, for repairs and to change guards. It evidences that the vast majority of the transports arrived at the AR camps.
All you have done is evidence that instead of 100% of transports arriving at the AR camps, it was more likely 95% plus. There is corroborating evidence that by the end of 1942 it was 1.27 million arrivals.
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
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Post by Nessie on Jan 9, 2023 9:40:58 GMT
"The action scheduled for September 7th, 1942 in Kolomea...The total number of Jews transported to Belzec on the resettlement train on September 10, 1942 was 8,205." Belzec station. There was more than one camp in the Belzec area. All this resulted in over crowding and a break down in the Belzec Committee with new camps established in the area. Where does it say that they arrived at the station? If they did arrive at the station, where did they go after that? Belzec AR camp had recorded 434,508 arrivals by the end of 1942. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 9, 2023 17:48:17 GMT
Where does it say that they arrived at the station? If they did arrive at the station, where did they go after that? Belzec AR camp had recorded 434,508 arrivals by the end of 1942. Do you think that the train got off its rails and went for walkies around the town? All trains stop at stations. There were a number of camps in the Belzec area. You are going off topic btw. The report mentions Belzec, not an AR camp. That is your spin. There is no corroborating evidence suggested. Korherr mentioned in his reports through the camps or smuggled through not to the camps. |
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Nessie
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𝐕𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐬 𝗮𝗱𝗷𝘂𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗼𝗿
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Post by Nessie on Jan 9, 2023 18:44:14 GMT
Where does it say that they arrived at the station? If they did arrive at the station, where did they go after that? Belzec AR camp had recorded 434,508 arrivals by the end of 1942. Do you think that the train got off its rails and went for walkies around the town? All trains stop at stations. There were a number of camps in the Belzec area. You are going off topic btw. The only camp for which there is evidence of mass arrivals, is the AR camp, Belzec. Hofle specifically references arrivals at the AR camp "B". Korherr stated he was told there was resettlement in the Lublin district from the camps in the General Government, for which there is no evidence. Multiple witnesses speak to arrivals there. There is corrobroating evidence. Where is your evidence of resettlement in eastern Galicia? |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 9, 2023 19:02:35 GMT
The only camp for which there is evidence of mass arrivals, is the AR camp, Belzec. There is a Belzec thread if you wish to post something of relevance. Get a spell check. There is evidence of a huge number of labour camps in the area. While Jews were sent to the Russian East, they also returned to Labour camps in the West as shown multiple time. There were labour camps in Galicia. Instead of asking questions would you do some research for a change, if you are capable, to add to the pool of knowledge. Most of the labour camps are accessible by train. |
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