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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 6, 2023 1:04:17 GMT
Jewish Resettlement" in Eastern Galicia Fahrplananordnung documents used as evidence of mass deportations to the alleged Treblinka extermination camp have shown to have serious flaws. In all cases the documents show that the trains stopped for considerable times at the precise locations of major "Forced Labour Camps for Jews" aka Zwangarbeitslager (Zwl); all the stops are also major railway junctions. Suggestions have been given as to why the trains stopped at those periods, some pertinent replies are: - To pick up more Jews to take to be gassed.
- No one getting off.."You have not shown me any witness, photographic, documentary or other evidence of people getting off the AR transports at those locations."
- Every single witness to the AR camps that has ever been discussed here. None of them mention trains stopping at other stations and people getting off.
Obviously the witness statements of Leon Rytz and Elias Cohen who both arrived at Skarzysko-Kamienna Zwl is not going to register with that member. The poster bombsaway at CODOH posted a link regarding delays on the Belzec line in Galicia, specifically from Kolomea (now Kolomyia). A report regarding the deportation of Jews from Kolomea to Belzec mentioning issues with the "passengers" in transit. This report is in pdf file for convenience. Jewish Resettlement in Eastern Galicea. Here is the original link the information was obtained from. The date of the report is written as 9/14/42 or the 14 September 1942. Germans would write this as 14.9.42 as the dates are in the report. I will quote some relevant sections from that file. There is no train schedule for this transport. The mention of the trains destination 7.9.42: Transport numbers: This calculated to 48 wagons. Excessive loading, another transport 9.9.42: Stress was due to a heatwave. The transportees were left in the wagons overnight. Another transport 10.9.42 leaving 8.50am Arrival at Lviv railway junction: The trip of about 170km took 14 hours 25 minutes. The transports stopped at Stanislau for 1.5 hours to repair the damage the passengers inflicted on the carriages. ( I put pm as I am certain the train cannot do 185 km/h to traverse 170 km in 55 minutes.) This quote is interesting. Lemberg is just another name for Lviv . The train went to Kleparow, a suburb of Lviv, the site of a major railway junction for trains heading north. Here the transport stopped about 2 hours 15 mins. Here is an image of the junction. Some people have speculated that the labour camp designated L was "Lublin" aka the Majdanek extermination camp. About 130 km north of Klemperow railway junction was the labour camp of Lutsk. The railway line north of this junction goes directly to the city of Lutsk. There is no need for the train to deviate about 6 km to Klemperow, when the Lviv railways station has tracks directly to Belzec and then Lublin if necessary. The only destination with a labour camp on the northern line from Klemerow was the one in Lutsk. The Lutsk Labour camp opened on October 19 1941 closing at the end of 1942. A ghetto was also set up in Lutsk on December 11–12, 1941. An orphanage, an old age home, and public kitchens were established in the ghetto. link. On March 15, 1942, a few hundred men were sent to Vinnitsa for the construction of the Führer's HQ there. There was a mass escape of Jews from the ghetto and Labour camp in Lutsk. Some were murdered by Ukrainians but others had joined the partisans. They fought the Germans as part of the Kowpak units. On September 1, 1942, some 2000 escaped Jews, most who emerged from hiding, were executed. How many Germans died in the conflict in unknown at this stage. If 9 wagons loaded with 200 people in each were sent to Lutsk on September 10, 1942 this would amount to 1 800, similar in number to the Jews that had been executed as partisans. I have written in the Belzec post that there were a number of camps set up in that area. Bełżec-Dwór (Bełżec-Manor), Bełżec-Młyn (Bełżec-Mill), Bełżec-Parowozownia (Bełżec-Roundhouse), and the camps in Cieszanów, Lipsk, Płazów, and Dzików. These were all Zwl camps. What we have here in the document is evidence that Jews transported to an alleged extermination camp were removed to be relocated in a Labour camp for Jews. The remaining 6 400 + 1000 added on that transport could easily be divided up amongst the 10 Belzec Labour camps (@740). It is also interesting that another thousand Jews were added. The stop time for this transfer to another camp was 2 hours 15 minutes similar to the stop at Siedlce Zwl and railway junction (Fplo 587)..1 hr 35 mins |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 6, 2023 9:32:07 GMT
This document describes transports to Belzec, where each time the train stopped, whether that was for repairs or to change crew or for overnight halts, it was guarded to stop prisoners from escaping. pdfhost.io/v/imGvPqhD6_guard_reportThere is no reference to dropping prisoners off to go to other camps. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 6, 2023 9:44:01 GMT
There is no reference to dropping prisoners off to go to other camps.
Does the poster Nessie have a different understanding of unloaded and given wagons? |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 6, 2023 9:50:50 GMT
The full quote is;
"As the transport train continued its journey, the train had to be temporarily nailed up whenever it stopped at a station,"
That contradicts your claim the trains were being used to drop people off at each stop.
"At 11.15 the train arrived in Lviv. Since no relief for the escort detail had arrived, the escort detail J. had to take over the guarding of the train to Belzec.
After a short stop at Lemberg station, the train drove to the Kleparow suburban station, where SS-Ostuf. Schulze was given 9 wagons, which were
marked with an "L" and intended for the forced labor camp, and were unloaded here."
Some people on their way to Belzec were diverted at Kleparow, to the labour camp "L". That is not an unloading on the way to Belzec. Those people remained inside the carriages.
"SS Ostuf. Schulze then had about 1,000 Jews loaded in again. At around 1:30 p.m., the transport continued towards Belzec."
Instead, more Jews were loaded onto the train and taken to Belzec. There is nothing there to support your claim people were being dropped off at stops on their way to the camp.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 6, 2023 10:03:49 GMT
The full quote is; "As the transport train continued its journey, the train had to be temporarily nailed up whenever it stopped at a station," That contradicts your claim the trains were being used to drop people off at each stop. I never said that the people disembarked at each stop. Your comprehension skills are abysmal. See the above, they were unloaded. Unloaded: remove goods from (a vehicle, ship, container, etc.). to remove the contents of something"SS Ostuf. Schulze then had about 1,000 Jews loaded in again. At around 1:30 p.m., the transport continued towards Belzec." Nessie you lack comprehension skills.Most people reading this would disagree with your comprehension. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 6, 2023 14:03:02 GMT
The full quote is; "As the transport train continued its journey, the train had to be temporarily nailed up whenever it stopped at a station," That contradicts your claim the trains were being used to drop people off at each stop. I never said that the people disembarked at each stop. Your comprehension skills are abysmal. Here is what you said in this thread about the Fahrplanordnungs that covered the trains from the ghettos to the AR camps; rodoh.freeforums.net/post/12944/thread"This is proof that people transited from labour camp to labour camp by train. This is the reason why the trains stopped at these locations." When trains are being nailed up and guarded at the stops, it is evidence that people were not getting off at the locations to go to labour camps. The chronological order of events was; 1 - "At 11.15 the train arrived in Lviv. Since no relief for the escort detail had arrived, the escort detail J. had to take over the guarding of the train to Belzec." The train for Belzec arrives in Lviv and no one is let off. The train is guarded during its stop. 2 - "After a short stop at Lemberg station, the train drove to the Kleparow suburban station, where SS-Ostuf. Schulze was given 9 wagons, which were marked with an "L" and intended for the forced labor camp, and were unloaded here." The train makes two stops and at the second stop either 9 wagons are separated and go to the camp "L" where they unload, or 9 empty wagons take people who are unloaded from the train stopped at Kleparow and they go to "L". 3 - "SS Ostuf. Schulze then had about 1,000 Jews loaded in again. At around 1:30 p.m., the transport continued towards Belzec." At either "L" 1,000 Jews are loaded and taken Kleparow, or they are loaded at Kleparow itself and the train goes to Belzec. At best, you have found evidence some people disembarked prior to arriving at Belzec, rather than being selected at Belzec, but they were replaced with 1,000 other Jews. That means a full train still arrives at Belzec and your theory that people were being dropped off and the trains arriving at Belzec were no longer full, is contradicted by the evidence you provided. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 6, 2023 18:15:44 GMT
That means a full train still arrives at Belzec and your theory that people were being dropped off and the trains arriving at Belzec were no longer full, is contradicted by the evidence you provided. Only about half were put back on. The train was not full. People were sent to another destination, a labour camp on the way to Belzec an alleged extermination camp but was in reality a series of labour camps. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 6, 2023 19:44:00 GMT
That means a full train still arrives at Belzec and your theory that people were being dropped off and the trains arriving at Belzec were no longer full, is contradicted by the evidence you provided. Only about half were put back on. The train was not full. People were sent to another destination, a labour camp on the way to Belzec an alleged extermination camp but was in reality a series of labour camps. Nine wagons went to "L" and 1000 people were put back onto the train. That is 1000 people into 9 carriages. Sounds pretty full to me. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 7, 2023 1:52:25 GMT
Nine wagons went to "L" and 1000 people were put back onto the train. That is 1000 people into 9 carriages. Sounds pretty full to me. They originally had 1 800, 200 stuffed into each carriage. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 7, 2023 8:37:08 GMT
Nine wagons went to "L" and 1000 people were put back onto the train. That is 1000 people into 9 carriages. Sounds pretty full to me. They originally had 1 800, 200 stuffed into each carriage. Show me the evidence that each carriage on that train had 200 people in it.
Show me a Fahrplanordnung that has stops in that order, prior to arriving at Belzec.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 7, 2023 8:53:37 GMT
Show me the evidence that each carriage on that train had 200 people in it. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 7, 2023 9:39:11 GMT
Show me the evidence that each carriage on that train had 200 people in it. The context is that those 30 carriages joined others and "How heavily the 10 wagons loaded by the Sipo in Horodenka and Sniatyn were individually filled with Jews, I did not know." You do not know which of those carriages were then split to make the 9 sent to "L".
In any case, at the end of the report a full train arrived at Belzec.
"The increasing panic among the Jews, caused by the intense heat, overcrowding of the wagons and the stench of corpses - when the wagons were unloaded there were about 200 dead Jews on the train - made the transport almost impossible. At 6.45 p.m. the transport train arrived in Belzec..."
You have found one instance where a transport was split during a journey and 1,000 Jews were loaded. That is not evidence to support your theory the stops recorded on the Fahrplanordnungs were to drop Jews off at labour camps, on their way to the AR camps.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 7, 2023 9:52:49 GMT
You have found one instance where a transport was split during a journey and 1,000 Jews were loaded. That is not evidence to support your theory the stops recorded on the Fahrplanordnungs were to drop Jews off at labour camps, on their way to the AR camps. Each incident or event is an evidential account. The mantra of mass deportations to the end point is now terminated. |
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Post by Nessie on Jan 7, 2023 10:44:12 GMT
You have found one instance where a transport was split during a journey and 1,000 Jews were loaded. That is not evidence to support your theory the stops recorded on the Fahrplanordnungs were to drop Jews off at labour camps, on their way to the AR camps. Each incident or event is an evidential account. The mantra of mass deportations to the end point is now terminated. You have cherry-picked an instance where a train was split and you make the assumption "If 9 wagons loaded with 200 people in each..." so that 1800 were unloaded. But the report has 1,000 then being loaded, so at most the transport was reduced by 800 and furthermore; "The total number of Jews transported to Belzec on the resettlement train on September 10, 1942 was 8,205." The report details all the security measures to stop people from escaping, from nailing doors shut to how the train was guarded. It also describes how guard details were changed, which is another reason for the stops recorded on the Fahrplanordnungs, the guards were changed.
By the end of 1942, some 1.27 million people had arrived at the AR camps, including Belzec. That report confirms that the vast majority who got on the transports, arrived at the AR camps.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Jan 7, 2023 21:06:19 GMT
You have cherry-picked an instance where a train was split and you make the assumption "If 9 wagons loaded with 200 people in each..." so that 1800 were unloaded. But the report has 1,000 then being loaded, so at most the transport was reduced by 800 and furthermore; "The total number of Jews transported to Belzec on the resettlement train on September 10, 1942 was 8,205." The report details all the security measures to stop people from escaping, from nailing doors shut to how the train was guarded. It also describes how guard details were changed, which is another reason for the stops recorded on the Fahrplanordnungs, the guards were changed. By the end of 1942, some 1.27 million people had arrived at the AR camps, including Belzec. That report confirms that the vast majority who got on the transports, arrived at the AR camps. All the transports, apart from those designated to go to Auschwitz arrived at the train stations. It is the station name that is mentioned on the schedule documents. For those who ended up at Treblinka, this could be either TI or the Judenlager TII. Information has been obtained that there were three camps at Treblinka: Arbeitlsager TI, Zwangsarbeitslager für jüdische Männer Treblinka (gravel pit), Zwangsarbeitslager für jüdische Frauen Treblinka (agricultural work). (camps 3030, 3031). link. Deutschland-ein-denkmal.de have located these two camps between TII and Malkinia, near the Treblinka township. They were under the auspices of the TI quarry arbeitslager. All these camps were serviced by rail transports. The schedule documents simply has the railway station in the area as the final destination. Going back to the document, here is the paragraph of interest. - After a short stop at Lemberg station, the train drove to the Kleparow suburban stationLemberg is the Lviv railway station and Klemberg is a railway junction
- SS-Ostuf.Schulze was given 9 wagons 9 wagons from the transport
- marked with an "L" and intended for the forced labor campMust be the destination labour camp (zwangarbeitslager) starting with an L name. Lutsk on the northern track from Klemberg perhaps.
- were unloaded here. The 9 wagons were unloaded. About 1800 Jews taken out
- had about 1,000 Jews loaded in again
This means Schultz took about 800 Jews for his Labour camp. It is here he did a work selection from those wagons. The train heads to Belzec stations. There were Belzec Zwangarbeitslager. An influx of workers resulted in a number of new camps being set up for Jews in the Belzec area. The following camps were established: Bełżec-Dwór (Bełżec-Manor), Bełżec-Młyn (Bełżec-Mill), Bełżec-Parowozownia (Bełżec-Roundhouse), and the camps in Cieszanów, Lipsk, Płazów, and Dzików. All one can infer is the transport ended up at Belzec Station. |
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