Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 21, 2022 19:55:58 GMT
That is a different issue again. Every single person who worked inside an AR camp and saw the chambers, or inside a Krema at A-B, said exactly the same thing, gas was used to kill those inside. Hearsay witness claims do vary, though not in the case of the Dutch witnesses, who all speak to some shootings and the rest were gassed, but that is explained by the nature of hearsay. Your attempts to misrepresent the witness evidence as vastly different is dishonest. There is great variation as shown below from witnesses of the same transport. Please re read the Dutch statements. Most of them speak of being at the camp for a very short time, know nothing and then claim they know everything. In previous posts I have highlighted a few. Just for you, I will do it again: The gas chambers were from hearsay. None of them were in a position to see one but claim they knew about them. Even a person with abysmal comprehension skills can understand the phrase "we all believed"; this highlights the whole point. A point you do not need to make to me, as you avoid what I actually said, which is that every single person who saw the chambers in operation, said people were gassed, so when you said "If an alleged historical event claims that people were murdered by say guillotine and it was shown the people were hanged there are issues with the original narrative presented.", that is a false analogy as you are not comparing like to like. You are comparing hearsay to eyewitness evidence. Your supposed reasonable doubt, which is an unevidenced hypothesis, is defeated by the evidence from documents and witnesses of mass arrivals at the AR camps from the ghettos. Correct, the Fahrplanordnungs do not evidence everyone got off at the AR camps and no one got off at the stops before the AR camps. Well done for realising that. The evidence of mass arrivals at the AR camps comes from multiple documents, witnesses and the circumstances of AR. You have no evidence that people got off before that. Revisionists need to prove their claims, such as people got off before the AR camps. What you call reasonable doubt is an unevidenced hypothesis. You are bandying about terms you clearly do not understand.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Dec 21, 2022 21:10:57 GMT
A point you do not need to make to me, as you avoid what I actually said, which is that every single person who saw the chambers in operation, said people were gassed Please show the forum which of the Sobibor Jews saw a gas chamber in operation. The document under discussion was die Fahrplananordnung documents presented as evidence for mass transportation of Jews to a final destination. There is no evidence presented by anyone that those people did not get off at the locations mentioned, where the trains stopped. It is unreasonable to infer some if not most did not get off. You were invited to produce other documents, other Fahrplananordnung that could infer this. This has not been presented to date. A trained polizist would understand the concept of reasonable doubt. You fail to understand. To suggest that a train that stops at a multitude of locations is sufficient evidence of mass arrivals is asinine. This is in light of Fahrplananordnung (time table arrangements) used for every train journey all over the Reich, even those going from camp to camp. If the end point of die Fahrplananordnung was not Treblinka it would not be used by the believers. It is noted that the final destination mentions Treblinka and not TII. TI was just another labour camp like the others on the same route. The reality is you do not know the circumstances of those time table arrangements let alone their purpose. If you could find another document or find information as to why the train stopped at those labour camp locations for extended periods then let the forum know. Your argument is somewhat elliptical. Die Fahrplananordnung documents were presented as evidence of mass arrivals, which somehow supports the Hรถfle telegram. The circumstances were clearly explained by Prudent Regret. The only other one is the Stroop Report. Assuming it is true lets examine the content a little. This is a different set of circumstances than pulling Jews elsewhere and transporting them. All combatants have to individually distinguish themselves from the civilian population during military operations. Otherwise they are not entitled to combatant status. Extra judicial executions of civilian combatants was standard in the German armed forces in both wars. One would expect the surviving combatants of the Warsaw debacle to face the ultimate penalty. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising April 19, 1943 has little to do with fahrplananordnung dated in May 43 (567) or August 42 (565). This is an interesting topic in itself. It is likely they were sent to TII as this was the nearest Judenlager fit for purpose. Marian Olszuk heard the shots of executions and graves recently found near TI. The statement from Stroop of sending terrorist civilians to a scarcely guarded Judenlager does not make sense. There is no reason why they were not shot on the same spot as the other 7 thousand. This is the likely fate of the terrorists. The fact that they were Jews is incidental. Any civilian combatant could expect the same treatment.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2022 10:12:15 GMT
A point you do not need to make to me, as you avoid what I actually said, which is that every single person who saw the chambers in operation, said people were gassed Please show the forum which of the Sobibor Jews saw a gas chamber in operation. I do not think that any surviving Jew saw the gas chambers at Sobibor in operation. You are again dodging the point, which is why you have edited out the next part of what I said. You are trying to avoid the false comparison you made about how people died. The witnesses at the AR camps, including Sobibor are consistent. Those who saw what happened in the part of the camp with chambers all report seeing gassings. Elsewhere in the camps, people were reported to have been shot, known because witnesses head the shootings. Rather than accept your mistake, you dodge it, so you can use your false claim again in the future. That is why so many debates get repetitive. You get debunked, you dodge and repeat your debunked claim, so it need to be debunked again. You are now being dishonest. I have presented you with the evidence that people did not get off the transports before arriving at the AR camps. There is the witness evidence of trains that were packed and people were on for days, before they all got off at the AR camps. There is evidence from Poles who saw and drove the trains, that people only got off at the AR camps. There is the evidence of how many got off at the AR camps, from Hofle, Stroop and Korherr. Then there is the circumstantial evidence of AR, an operation to clear Jews from the ghettos and steal the last of their property. When you say "There is no evidence presented by anyone" you know that is not true. Your false claim is part of your deception, where the only person you are fooling is you. If an accused claims an alibi, that they were somewhere else, as you claim here, that the Jews were somewhere else, and at camps at stations before the AR camp, it is up to the accused to provide the evidence of that. You have no evidence. That the AR trains stopped at stations as they went to the AR camps is not odd. They had to fit around other trains. Guards and drivers may be changed. The Nazis wanted the trains to be normally timetables, so Poles would not be quite so suspicious of what was happening, as the Nazis wanted the transports to appear to be part of a relocation. Prudent Regret does not support your hypothesis, that many people got off the transports before they arrived at the AR camps. He supports mass arrivals and the theft of the property. It makes sense, as the rest of the Warsaw ghetto were being sent to TII, to kill them and steal the last of their property. Poles and/or Jews being executed at TI, which was a penal camp, is a different issue. You have no evidence of your hypothesis that people got off at stops en route to TII.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Dec 22, 2022 10:33:19 GMT
I do not think that any surviving Jew saw the gas chambers at Sobibor in operation. The witnesses at the AR camps, including Sobibor are consistent. Those who saw what happened in the part of the camp with chambers all report seeing gassings. Elsewhere in the camps, people were reported to have been shot, known because witnesses head the shootings. The use of a machine gun is not consistent with rifle fire. Who was in part of the camp with gaskammer? This may be the case but the Fahrplananordnung presented is not evidence of the above. Other Fahrplananordnung supporting your claim need to be found. The Jews are not being accused of anything, let alone a specific individual. It is a fact that there were about 16 labour camps for Jews on the same route to Treblinka, some had up to 8000 workers. 56 transports no doubt with their own Fahrplananordnung documents arrived at one of the locations. The Fahrplananordnung you presented may well have been one of those 56. I explained clearly that there are sidings in all countries with railways along the route so trains in the opposite direction can move. The rest is speculation with no basis in fact. In 587 the only stop without a labour camp in the vicinity is Lukow. Saying something is highly likely is not a hypothesis, though could be construed as such. Prudent Regret was not aware of the evidence I presented when he first wrote his discourse. He is now well aware so expect an update. They did not need to kill them to steal their property; they were non citizens and had no property by law. You have yet to present hard evidence that people did not get off at those camps, most which were screaming out for new workers.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2022 10:56:13 GMT
I do not think that any surviving Jew saw the gas chambers at Sobibor in operation. The witnesses at the AR camps, including Sobibor are consistent. Those who saw what happened in the part of the camp with chambers all report seeing gassings. Elsewhere in the camps, people were reported to have been shot, known because witnesses head the shootings. The use of a machine gun is not consistent with rifle fire. Who was in part of the camp with gaskammer? All the Dutch witnesses you used reported the same thing, so your analogy of ""If an alleged historical event claims that people were murdered by say guillotine and it was shown the people were hanged..." is a false analogy. That is why you edit it out of your responses. The eyewitnesses to gassings at Sobibor were Nazis. The Farplanordnungs are evidence of regular transports that ended at TII. The other evidence I referenced is evidence that people remained on the trains until they got off at TII. You talked about reasonable doubt and I pointed out that your suggestion Jews got off is equivalent to an alibi, as you are claiming they were somewhere else, and the burden of proof is on the person who claims the alibi. You need to produce evidence to back up your alibi, you cannot just claim you have reasonable doubt and leave it at that. You need evidence. You asked why would the trains stop and I gave reasonable explanations. The Nazis were pretending this was a relocation and a normal train journey. As part of the deception, they produced normal looking Fahrplaordnngs. Prudent Regret will need to admit he was wrong and his whole claim about mass transports to the AR camps and what happened at those camps has been debunked. He will want to see your evidence that people got off the trains before they arrived at the AR camps. The Nazis listed the property they stole as including underwear, gold from teeth, spectacles, walking sticks, suitcases, everything the Jews were allowed to pack when they left the ghettos. That is not consistent with resettlement, it is with mass killings. The hard evidence no one got off en route to the AR camps is from multiple witnesses, Jewish, Polish and Nazi who report people stuck in the carriages until they got to the AR camps and the Nazi documents recording mass arrivals at those camps. You have no hard evidence from witnesses or documents of people getting off at earlier stops.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Dec 22, 2022 11:17:44 GMT
All the Dutch witnesses you used reported the same thing The only commonality is the use of tipper for the decrepit to be euthanized. Some did get off at TII, that is not in question. You need to distinguish the schedules you presented as evidence as being somehow different to the other 56 or so trains that went to the munitions camp at Skarลผysko-Kamienna; they all had similar schedules. There is nothing in the Farplanordnung presented to suggest what the cargo was nor that whatever cargo was bound for TII. All that is mentioned is a multitude of stops that coincide with Jewish Labour Camps. There were many other towns on the same route, yet the trains did not stop at those with a few exceptions e.g. Luckow. There is no indication that all the cargo arrived at a single end point in any of the Farplanordnung examined. The witnesses you present may have been on another transport, most likely were with different Farplanordnung. Find it. Fahrplananordnung are train schedules produced by railway network not by the SS. If the SS was in charge spies like Zabecki would not be working as Station Masters. It can be assumed they got off the trains unless conclusive evidence is given otherwise. The lies of a few screaming Jews will not cut mustard on this one. I fail to see how working in a labour camp can be regarded as resettlement. Resettlement was an ideal that was not actualized. Until recently not many people knew those camps existed. What a coincidence they all happen to be at the precise location the trains stopped for extended periods. That has been presented above with the 56 transports arriving at the Munitions factory which is along the same route to Treblinka. Your little fantasy is falling apart somewhat rapidly Nessie. Oh well. 
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2022 11:29:33 GMT
All the Dutch witnesses you used reported the same thing The only commonality is the use of tipper for the decrepit to be euthanized. Why are you saying that, when anyone can read their testimony and will see it is not true? www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/nederlandse-overlevendenYou are trying to save face after you made a false claim to suggest the witnesses made wildly varying claims, equivalent to, as you suggested "If an alleged historical event claims that people were murdered by say guillotine and it was shown the people were hanged..." You chopped the Dutch quotes to make it look like witnesses either said shootings or gassings, which was dishonest of you, as they said both. I pointed out that I was referring to eyewitnesses to what happened in specific parts of the camp and how everyone who saw the chambers in operation, and incidentally everyone who worked inside a Krema, said they saw mass gassings, so your analogy is false. You have been caught making a false claim, your claim is debunked, and until you accept that, debate with you is doomed to get very repetitive, as you refuse to learn from your mistakes, and you keep on repeating them. Do you admit that the Nazis and/or Jews, who actually saw with their own eyes, what happened at the chambers at the AR camps and inside the A-B Kremas, all said mass gassings? Yes or no.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2022 11:33:35 GMT
.... Prudent Regret will need to admit he was wrong and his whole claim about mass transports to the AR camps and what happened at those camps has been debunked. He will want to see your evidence that people got off the trains before they arrived at the AR camps. It can be assumed they got off the trains unless conclusive evidence is given otherwise. The lies of a few screaming Jews will not cut mustard on this one. ... No, you need hard evidence. You need witnesses to people getting off the trains, or documents recording how many got off. I have given you hard evidence from Jewish, Nazi and Polish witnesses of packed trains that did not discharge their passengers until arriving in the AR camps and Nazi documents recording how many arrived at those camps.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Dec 22, 2022 11:58:10 GMT
No, you need hard evidence. You need witnesses to people getting off the trains, or documents recording how many got off. I have given you hard evidence from Jewish, Nazi and Polish witnesses of packed trains that did not discharge their passengers until arriving in the AR camps and Nazi documents recording how many arrived at those camps. I mentioned that there is a reasonable doubt that the people on those Fahrplananordnung (if they were people) all arrived at the end location. It is clear that trains did stop at the various camps along the same route. I am not claiming that other trains did not arrive with all the passengers at Treblinka. The burden of proof is on you to show that the Fahrplananordnung documents you presented as evidence of mass arrivals did indeed occur. Generalizations about other trains will not suffice. If you have evidence of how many people arrived at TII apart from the Hรถfle telegram please present it. I would like to see the evidence from Poles and Nazis that people did not depart trains at those camps on the train route. No hurry; if you have it, which I doubt this thread can remain open.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2022 12:33:53 GMT
No, you need hard evidence. You need witnesses to people getting off the trains, or documents recording how many got off. I have given you hard evidence from Jewish, Nazi and Polish witnesses of packed trains that did not discharge their passengers until arriving in the AR camps and Nazi documents recording how many arrived at those camps. I mentioned that there is a reasonable doubt that the people on those Fahrplananordnung (if they were people) all arrived at the end location. That is not true. Reasonable doubt is only possible when a claim is accompanied by evidence. You have no evidence. Yet again you bandy about terms without showing you have any understanding of what you are discussing. I am not using the Fahrplanordnungs to evidence mass arrivals at TII. When I first produced them as evidence, it was part of a debate with Turnagain, where he was doubting that there had been mass transports from the ghettos to the AR camps and what then happened. The first Fahrplanordnung I showed him, was the Warsaw shuttle train, which specifically recording that the trains returned to Warsaw empty. I then produced the others, and pointed out that those ghettos were also being emptied, so it stands to reason the return trains did not take passengers back. You then raised the hypothesis that those trains may have deposited people at the stops on the way to the AR camps. I have repeatedly pointed out to you that you need to evidence that hypothesis, or it merely remains an assertion, or possibility, you think might have happened, which, evidentially, is worthless. The Hofle Telegram and the Korherr Report give identical totals as to how many arrived at the AR camps by the end of 1942. The ghetto records and the Stroop Report provide totals of individual transports, from which historians have constructed timelines of the transports, not just to TII, but also Belzec and Sobibor. memoryoftreblinka.org/timeline-of-treblinka-extermination-camp/www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec/bel004.htmlwww.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/transports-to-sobiborThe witness evidence is here; www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=32918See section 2. The Sonderkommando evidence is the Jews who were on the transports and you can read that none describe people getting off prior to arriving at TII. They describe being crammed into boxcars, starving, people dying, often overheating, for days as the trains slowly made their way to the AR camp. The section on Polish workers has the testimony of those who worked the railways, who speak of anyone trying to get off the trains being shot and how full the trains were as they arrived at TII. The Nazis describe mass disembarkation on arrival at TII. You have no witnesses or documents, to evidence your hypothesis people got off at earlier stops.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Dec 22, 2022 12:51:40 GMT
Reasonable doubt is only possible when a claim is accompanied by evidence. You have no evidence. Yet again you bandy about terms without showing you have any understanding of what you are discussing. Under UK law, a defendant is considered innocent until proven guilty. Reasonable doubt stems from insufficient evidence. If it cannot be proved without a doubt that the defendant is guilty, that person should not be convicted. There is insufficient evidence all those people arrived at the camps. Of course they stopped and off loaded passengers or cargo. That evidence is presented. End of story. The Korherr report did not mention AR camps. The T in the Hรถfle telegram is meaningless. Forget Historians, if they wish to discuss this they are invited to come here. Please do not present Jewish organizations to discuss the events in question, they are hardly independent. Do not give links to Klowns as evidence. This may be correct but now you are transferring to witness evidence which is highly suspect. Were these Sonderkommandos on the transports all the way? The Polish workers were only on sections not the whole length of the transport. Of course people disembarked at TI and the Judenlager TII; those camps had a muster of about 6 thousand.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2022 16:16:35 GMT
Reasonable doubt is only possible when a claim is accompanied by evidence. You have no evidence. Yet again you bandy about terms without showing you have any understanding of what you are discussing. Under UK law, a defendant is considered innocent until proven guilty. Reasonable doubt stems from insufficient evidence. If it cannot be proved without a doubt that the defendant is guilty, that person should not be convicted. There is insufficient evidence all those people arrived at the camps. In any court, when dozens of Nazis, Jews and Poles all say packed trains arrived at the AR camps and Nazi documents are produced recording hundreds of thousands of arrivals, that is sufficient evidence and for you to claim it is not, is just part of your self-deception. More self-deception by you. You have presented a hypothesis with no witness or documentary evidence to support it. The circumstantial evidence is also in my favour, as AR was a plan to empty the ghettos and steal Jewish property. It was not to empty ghettos to nearby camps. You have no evidence that by the end of 1942, 1.27 million Jews were now living in camps in Poland. It mentioned the General Government, which is where the AR camps were located. It also mentioned Warthegau, where Chelmno was located. Korherr's figure is identical to Hofle's. Hofle, who was a senior manager in AR, has recorded arrivals at camps, T, B and S, which tallies with TII, Belzec and Sobibor, the AR camps. You are thinking up excuses to dismiss inconvenient evidence to you. The link to TSSF is just a means to the links to the evidence. If you are going to repeatedly make false claims about the evidence, then you just end up going the way Bob, Werd and Turnagain did. I will constantly call out the dishonesty and we will just go around in circles as you repeat your false claims.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2022 16:20:06 GMT
The only commonality is the use of tipper for the decrepit to be euthanized. Why are you saying that, when anyone can read their testimony and will see it is not true? www.sobiborinterviews.nl/en/nederlandse-overlevendenYou are trying to save face after you made a false claim to suggest the witnesses made wildly varying claims, equivalent to, as you suggested "If an alleged historical event claims that people were murdered by say guillotine and it was shown the people were hanged..." You chopped the Dutch quotes to make it look like witnesses either said shootings or gassings, which was dishonest of you, as they said both. I pointed out that I was referring to eyewitnesses to what happened in specific parts of the camp and how everyone who saw the chambers in operation, and incidentally everyone who worked inside a Krema, said they saw mass gassings, so your analogy is false. You have been caught making a false claim, your claim is debunked, and until you accept that, debate with you is doomed to get very repetitive, as you refuse to learn from your mistakes, and you keep on repeating them. Do you admit that the Nazis and/or Jews, who actually saw with their own eyes, what happened at the chambers at the AR camps and inside the A-B Kremas, all said mass gassings? Yes or no. I am still waiting for an answer.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Dec 22, 2022 16:49:14 GMT
Prudent Regret does not support your hypothesis, that many people got off the transports before they arrived at the AR camps. He supports mass arrivals and the theft of the property. I do support his hypothesis. Ever since I learned what Aktion Reinhardt was ACTUALLY about, I've increasingly doubted that T-II was the destination for the vast majority of deportees and began to feel that "Jewish Labor camp" provides a better fit for the evidence than "Transit camp" as the camp's primary purpose. T-II was after all associated with the SS Fur and Clothing Works SS- Bekleidungswerke, which itself was under Department IVa of SSPF Lublin, so this increased my suspicion that T-II was a labor camp and not (primarily) a transit camp, although it had delousing facilities so there's no reason it couldn't have been used to that capacity to some extent. But I myself came to the conclusion that T-II was not the destination documented in the train schedules a year ago: skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=854673#p854673Also, I wrote to Statistical Mechanic: My interest in the railway leading to T-II was also driven by this hypothesis. An industrial-gauge railway leading to T-II, which the picture of the T-II railway shows, would support the hypothesis of that "smaller shunting engine" actually being an industrial-gauge train connecting the network of industry in the greater Malkinia area to the transport hubs. That train would have brought the luggage and property confiscated from the deportees and liquidated ghettos to T-II. And the presence of that property at T-II, which has been confirmed by documents, photographic evidence, and archaeological evidence, does not provide strong evidence for mass arrivals at that location as there have been many camps confirmed which were dedicated to the task of sorting, delousing, and storing property. Furthermore the train documents do not suggest T-II was the final destination of the transports, as has been stressed in this thread. The remaining question that my work did not answer was "If they didn't go to T-II" where did they go? And it just obviously makes sense to any non-insane person that they went where the train stopped! And Nazgul's work provides compelling doubt that T-II was the final destination for the vast majority of deportees. Eyewitness testimony is all the official narrative has going for it, eyewitness testimony which also supported propaganda claims of millions of people murdered in Majdanek. The evidence for mass arrivals at T-II is extremely weak, as we have an enormous amount of evidence of witness testimony being systematically wrong or inaccurate on the order of magnitudes. The greatest material evidence found at T-II was the property, but this can no longer be considered evidence for mass arrivals given what we should now understand about Aktion Reinhardt and the work of SSPF Lublin in that capacity.
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Post by Nessie on Dec 22, 2022 17:02:24 GMT
Prudent Regret does not support your hypothesis, that many people got off the transports before they arrived at the AR camps. He supports mass arrivals and the theft of the property. I do support his hypothesis. Ever since I learned what Aktion Reinhardt was ACTUALLY about, I've increasingly doubted that T-II was the destination for the vast majority of deportees and began to feel that "Jewish Labor camp" provides a better fit for the evidence than "Transit camp" as the camp's primary purpose. T-II was after all associated with the SS Fur and Clothing Works SS- Bekleidungswerke, which itself was under Department IVa of SSPF Lublin, so this increased my suspicion that T-II was a labor camp and not (primarily) a transit camp, although it had delousing facilities so there's no reason it couldn't have been used to that capacity to some extent. But I myself came to the conclusion that T-II was not the destination documented in the train schedules a year ago: skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=854673#p854673My interest in the railway leading to T-II was also driven by this hypothesis. An industrial-gauge railway leading to T-II, which the picture of the T-II railway shows, would support the hypothesis of that "smaller shunting engine" actually being an industrial-gauge train connecting the network of industry in the greater Malkinia area to the transport hubs. That train would have brought the luggage and property confiscated from the deportees and liquidated ghettos to T-II. And the presence of that property at T-II, which has been confirmed by documents, photographic evidence, and archaeological evidence, does not provide strong evidence for mass arrivals at that location as there have been many camps confirmed which were dedicated to the task of sorting, delousing, and storing property. Furthermore the train documents do not suggest T-II was the final destination of the transports, as has been stressed in this thread. The remaining question that my work did not answer was "If they didn't go to T-II" where did they go? And it just obviously makes sense to any non-insane person that they went where the train stopped! And Nazgul's work provides compelling doubt that T-II was the final destination for the vast majority of deportees. Are you claiming that Jews were dropped off at the stops on the way to Treblinka, but their property remained on the train and that property only arrived at Treblinka for sorting?
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