Is an intermediate/compromise position viable?

Please show the forum which of the Sobibor Jews saw a gas chamber in operation.


The document under discussion was die Fahrplananordnung documents presented as evidence for mass transportation of Jews to a final destination.
There is no evidence presented by anyone that those people did not get off at the locations mentioned, where the trains stopped. It is unreasonable to infer some if not most did not get off. You were invited to produce other documents, other Fahrplananordnung that could infer this. This has not been presented to date.

A trained polizist would understand the concept of reasonable doubt. You fail to understand.



To suggest that a train that stops at a multitude of locations is sufficient evidence of mass arrivals is asinine. This is in light of Fahrplananordnung (time table arrangements) used for every train journey all over the Reich, even those going from camp to camp. If the end point of die Fahrplananordnung was not Treblinka it would not be used by the believers. It is noted that the final destination mentions Treblinka and not TII. TI was just another labour camp like the others on the same route. The reality is you do not know the circumstances of those time table arrangements let alone their purpose. If you could find another document or find information as to why the train stopped at those labour camp locations for extended periods then let the forum know.



Your argument is somewhat elliptical. Die Fahrplananordnung documents were presented as evidence of mass arrivals, which somehow supports the Höfle telegram. The circumstances were clearly explained by Prudent Regret. The only other one is the Stroop Report. Assuming it is true lets examine the content a little.



This is a different set of circumstances than pulling Jews elsewhere and transporting them. All combatants have to individually distinguish themselves from the civilian population during military operations. Otherwise they are not entitled to combatant status. Extra judicial executions of civilian combatants was standard in the German armed forces in both wars. One would expect the surviving combatants of the Warsaw debacle to face the ultimate penalty. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising April 19, 1943 has little to do with fahrplananordnung dated in May 43 (567) or August 42 (565).

This is an interesting topic in itself. It is likely they were sent to TII as this was the nearest Judenlager fit for purpose. Marian Olszuk heard the shots of executions and graves recently found near TI.

The statement from Stroop of sending terrorist civilians to a scarcely guarded Judenlager does not make sense.  There is no reason why they were not shot on the same spot as the other 7 thousand.




This is the likely fate of the terrorists. The fact that they were Jews is incidental. Any civilian combatant could expect the same treatment.

The use of a machine gun is not consistent with rifle fire. Who was in part of the camp with gaskammer?



This may be the case but the Fahrplananordnung presented is not evidence of the above. Other Fahrplananordnung supporting your claim need to be found.




The Jews are not being accused of anything, let alone a specific individual. It is a fact that there were about 16 labour camps for Jews on the same route to Treblinka, some had up to 8000 workers. 56 transports no doubt with their own Fahrplananordnung documents arrived at one of the locations. The Fahrplananordnung you presented may well have been one of those 56.


I explained clearly that there are sidings in all countries with railways along the route so trains in the opposite direction can move. The rest is speculation with no basis in fact. In 587 the only stop without a labour camp in the vicinity is Lukow.



Saying something is highly likely is not a hypothesis, though could be construed as such. Prudent Regret was not aware of the evidence I presented when he first wrote his discourse. He is now well aware so expect an update.


They did not need to kill them to steal their property; they were non citizens and had no property by law. You have yet to present hard evidence that people did not get off at those camps, most which were screaming out for new workers.

The only commonality is the use of tipper for the decrepit to be euthanized.



Some did get off at TII, that is not in question. You need to distinguish the schedules you presented as evidence as being somehow different to the other 56 or so trains that went to the munitions camp at Skarżysko-Kamienna; they all had similar schedules.


There is nothing in the Farplanordnung presented to suggest what the cargo was nor that whatever cargo was bound for TII. All that is mentioned is a multitude of stops that coincide with Jewish Labour Camps. There were many other towns on the same route, yet the trains did not stop at those with a few exceptions e.g. Luckow. There is no indication that all the cargo arrived at a single end point in any of the Farplanordnung examined.

The witnesses you present may have been on another transport, most likely were with different Farplanordnung. Find it.


Fahrplananordnung are train schedules produced by railway network not by the SS. If the SS was in charge spies like Zabecki would not be working as Station Masters.

It can be assumed they got off the trains unless conclusive evidence is given otherwise. The lies of a few screaming Jews will not cut mustard on this one.


I fail to see how working in a labour camp can be regarded as resettlement. Resettlement was an ideal that was not actualized.


Until recently not many people knew those camps existed. What a coincidence they all happen to be at the precise location the trains stopped for extended periods.


That has been presented above with the 56 transports arriving at the Munitions factory which is along the same route to Treblinka. Your little fantasy is falling apart somewhat rapidly Nessie. Oh well.

No, you need hard evidence. You need witnesses to people getting off the trains, or documents recording how many got off. I have given you hard evidence from Jewish, Nazi and Polish witnesses of packed trains that did not discharge their passengers until arriving in the AR camps and Nazi documents recording how many arrived at those camps.

That is not true. Reasonable doubt is only possible when a claim is accompanied by evidence. You have no evidence. Yet again you bandy about terms without showing you have any understanding of what you are discussing.



I am not using the Fahrplanordnungs to evidence mass arrivals at TII. When I first produced them as evidence, it was part of a debate with Turnagain, where he was doubting that there had been mass transports from the ghettos to the AR camps and what then happened. The first Fahrplanordnung I showed him, was the Warsaw shuttle train, which specifically recording that the trains returned to Warsaw empty. I then produced the others, and pointed out that those ghettos were also being emptied, so it stands to reason the return trains did not take passengers back.

You then raised the hypothesis that those trains may have deposited people at the stops on the way to the AR camps. I have repeatedly pointed out to you that you need to evidence that hypothesis, or it merely remains an assertion, or possibility, you think might have happened, which, evidentially, is worthless.



The Hofle Telegram and the Korherr Report give identical totals as to how many arrived at the AR camps by the end of 1942. The ghetto records and the Stroop Report provide totals of individual transports, from which historians have constructed timelines of the transports, not just to TII, but also Belzec and Sobibor.

memoryoftreblinka.org/timeline-of-treblinka-extermination-camp/
www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/belzec/bel004.html
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/transports-to-sobibor

The witness evidence is here;

www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=32918

See section 2. The Sonderkommando evidence is the Jews who were on the transports and you can read that none describe people getting off prior to arriving at TII. They describe being crammed into boxcars, starving, people dying, often overheating, for days as the trains slowly made their way to the AR camp. The section on Polish workers has the testimony of those who worked the railways, who speak of anyone trying to get off the trains being shot and how full the trains were as they arrived at TII. The Nazis describe mass disembarkation on arrival at TII.

You have no witnesses or documents, to evidence your hypothesis people got off at earlier stops.

In any court, when dozens of Nazis, Jews and Poles all say packed trains arrived at the AR camps and Nazi documents are produced recording hundreds of thousands of arrivals, that is sufficient evidence and for you to claim it is not, is just part of your self-deception.



More self-deception by you. You have presented a hypothesis with no witness or documentary evidence to support it.

The circumstantial evidence is also in my favour, as AR was a plan to empty the ghettos and steal Jewish property. It was not to empty ghettos to nearby camps. You have no evidence that by the end of 1942, 1.27 million Jews were now living in camps in Poland.



It mentioned the General Government, which is where the AR camps were located. It also mentioned Warthegau, where Chelmno was located. Korherr's figure is identical to Hofle's.



Hofle, who was a senior manager in AR, has recorded arrivals at camps, T, B and S, which tallies with TII, Belzec and Sobibor, the AR camps.


You are thinking up excuses to dismiss inconvenient evidence to you. The link to TSSF is just a means to the links to the evidence.

If you are going to repeatedly make false claims about the evidence, then you just end up going the way Bob, Werd and Turnagain did. I will constantly call out the dishonesty and we will just go around in circles as you repeat your false claims.

I do support his hypothesis. Ever since I learned what Aktion Reinhardt was ACTUALLY about, I've increasingly doubted that T-II was the destination for the vast majority of deportees and began to feel that "Jewish Labor camp" provides a better fit for the evidence than "Transit camp" as the camp's primary purpose. T-II was after all associated with the SS Fur and Clothing Works SS- Bekleidungswerke, which itself was under Department IVa of SSPF Lublin, so this increased my suspicion that T-II was a labor camp and not (primarily) a transit camp, although it had delousing facilities so there's no reason it couldn't have been used to that capacity to some extent.

But I myself came to the conclusion that T-II was not the destination documented in the train schedules a year ago: skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=854673#p854673


Also, I wrote to Statistical Mechanic:



My interest in the railway leading to T-II was also driven by this hypothesis. An industrial-gauge railway leading to T-II, which the picture of the T-II railway shows, would support the hypothesis of that "smaller shunting engine" actually being an industrial-gauge train connecting the network of industry in the greater Malkinia area to the transport hubs. That train would have brought the luggage and property confiscated from the deportees and  liquidated ghettos to T-II. And the presence of that property at T-II, which has been confirmed by documents, photographic evidence, and archaeological evidence, does not provide strong evidence for mass arrivals at that location as there have been many camps confirmed which were dedicated to the task of sorting, delousing, and storing property. Furthermore the train documents do not suggest T-II was the final destination of the transports, as has been stressed in this thread.

The remaining question that my work did not answer was "If they didn't go to T-II" where did they go? And it just obviously makes sense to any non-insane person that they went where the train stopped! And Nazgul's work provides compelling doubt that T-II was the final destination for the vast majority of deportees. 

Eyewitness testimony is all the official narrative has going for it, eyewitness testimony which also supported propaganda claims of millions of people murdered in Majdanek. The evidence for mass arrivals at T-II is extremely weak, as we have an enormous amount of evidence of witness testimony being systematically wrong or inaccurate on the order of magnitudes. The greatest material evidence found at T-II was the property, but this can no longer be considered evidence for mass arrivals given what we should now understand about Aktion Reinhardt and the work of SSPF Lublin in that capacity.