Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 16, 2022 19:39:14 GMT
...You cannot reliably use credibility to determine truthfulness.You need evidence to do that.
And the claimed mass-gassing of 2.75 million Jews has no empirical evidence. It only has extremely weak anecdotal evidence. As has been explained to this troll multiple times, anecdotal evidence is always, ALWAYS disregarded if the forensic and empirical evidence refutes it. Which is the case here. And that applies both to historical narratives and criminal trials. Empirical evidence is defined as evidence gathered by experimentation or observation and is usually used in reference to scientific investigation. Despite repeated requests to give an example of empirical evidence specific to the study of the history of what happened at the AR camps or A-B Kremas, you have refused to provide such an example. Anecdotal evidence is defined as that derived from personal experience or observations, which covers the witness evidence. What you refer to, by disregarding anecdotal evidence when forensic and empirical evidence refutes it, is the argument from incredulity. For example, a witness claims hundreds of people were packed inside a gas chamber of a certain dimension, but that could not be physically done, therefore the claim is that the empirical evidence of how many fit inside a certain space has refuted the witness claim, therefore the witness lied. The argument is that the witness has made an incredible claim, and that claim can be safely dismissed as untrue. That argument fails to understand that witnesses are poor at estimating the size, and it is more than likely they overestimated the number of people or, they underestimated the size of the chambers. Despite that being explained to you on numerous occasions, you just cannot understand that you are relying on a fallacy. Indeed, your use of fallacies is commonplace. For example, you pepper your posts with personal abuse, in the above case, "troll", as you seeks to undermine the person he is arguing with. Ad hominem, or argument to the person, attacks the person, rather than the argument or claims made. Much of the discussion is about the use of the argument from incredulity used by deniers and how it is flawed and that the evidence normally used to establish what has happened in the past from witnesses, documents, images, archaeology, physical items and circumstances is not lacking at all. The claims that it is lacking is merely a tactic to divert attention from the actual lack of evidence for an alternative to the mass killings that are being disputed. You will ignore this request, but, give me a specific example of what evidence you are referring to. The examinations of the AR camp sites and A-B kremas have produced no evidence, of any type, that refutes the "H-narrative" that those places were used for mass gassings. Some deniers, like Mattogno, try to claim the evidence for gassings, point to something else happening, such as mass showering, but he cannot find any evidence that mass showering took place and he cannot find evidence of regular mass transports from those places. Again, you will ignore this request, but give me a specific example of an independent, sceptical, truly scientific request to examine a mass gassing site, that has been refused. Holocaust denier/revisionists are not independent, sceptical, scientific investigators, so that rules any of them out. Holocaust denial laws prevent unevidenced, fallacy ridden, bogus history, which is anti-Semitic and designed to stir hatred, from being promoted. Holocaust denial/revisionism is a hoax, a conspiracy theory and those who believe in such are akin to being in a cult.
Fact is been-there, you are clueless about how to investigate history and you have fallen for a hoax.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Nov 16, 2022 20:04:22 GMT
Holocaust denial laws prevent unevidenced, fallacy ridden, bogus history, which is anti-Semitic and designed to stir hatred, from being promoted. Holocaust denial/revisionism is a hoax, a conspiracy theory and those who believe in such are akin to being in a cult. Fact is been-there, you are clueless about how to investigate history and you have fallen for a hoax. No they do not; they are designed to stop investigations and subsequent publication of the findings, unless those findings agree with the current narrative. There are only 16 countries that have such denial laws; rejected by other jurisdictions due to the violation of people's established rights of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Countries that specifically ban Holocaust denial generally have legal systems that limit speech in other ways, such as banning "hate speech"; this is so in the UK. Lipstadt said: You have said that you wish to abide by the forums rules and yet you continue to call those who oppose your thinking "deniers"; it is not the holocaust they are denying but specifics. Anyone can make any claim supporting the holocaust activities with impunity; splitting pregnant mothers stomachs, cutting off tits, wank machines, Jew soap/ lampshades etc. Criticizing those likely false claims could result in legal proceedings at a huge financial cost in some jurisdictions. Been There has repeatedly explained he supports aspects of the Holocaust claim, so your ad hominem attacks are not valid, like most of your arguments.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Nov 17, 2022 5:13:35 GMT
You cannot reliably use credibility to determine truthfulness.You need evidence to do that. It is witness integrity that is the issue; liars and people like you Nessie have diminished integrity.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 17, 2022 8:14:29 GMT
Holocaust denial laws prevent unevidenced, fallacy ridden, bogus history, which is anti-Semitic and designed to stir hatred, from being promoted. Holocaust denial/revisionism is a hoax, a conspiracy theory and those who believe in such are akin to being in a cult. Fact is been-there, you are clueless about how to investigate history and you have fallen for a hoax. No they do not; they are designed to stop investigations and subsequent publication of the findings, unless those findings agree with the current narrative. There are only 16 countries that have such denial laws; rejected by other jurisdictions due to the violation of people's established rights of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Countries that specifically ban Holocaust denial generally have legal systems that limit speech in other ways, such as banning "hate speech"; this is so in the UK. Lipstadt said: You have said that you wish to abide by the forums rules and yet you continue to call those who oppose your thinking "deniers"; it is not the holocaust they are denying but specifics. Anyone can make any claim supporting the holocaust activities with impunity; splitting pregnant mothers stomachs, cutting off tits, wank machines, Jew soap/ lampshades etc. Criticizing those likely false claims could result in legal proceedings at a huge financial cost in some jurisdictions. Been There has repeatedly explained he supports aspects of the Holocaust claim, so your ad hominem attacks are not valid, like most of your arguments.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 17, 2022 8:23:25 GMT
No they do not; they are designed to stop investigations and subsequent publication of the findings, unless those findings agree with the current narrative. There are only 16 countries that have such denial laws; rejected by other jurisdictions due to the violation of people's established rights of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Countries that specifically ban Holocaust denial generally have legal systems that limit speech in other ways, such as banning "hate speech"; this is so in the UK. Suggesting every single Holocaust survivor who witnessed what happened at the AR camps and A-B Kremas is a liar and that millions of Jews have cooperated to hoax the world they were killed, whilst applying pressure on the Nazis to lie and fooling every post war European government and university into supporting the hoax, is anti-Semitic conspiracy nonsense. That is not true. No one has been prosecuted for criticising the atrocity stories that intermingle with the truth about what happened. That is because of the lack of evidence to back up the atrocity stories, or evidence that they are atrocity stories. Note the need for evidence. Evidence is missing from denier claims. Been-there's level of support is weak and unconvincing, as it is far outweighed by his doubts about what happened. Pretty much every one of his posts contains an ad hominem as he concentrates, like no other forum member, concentrates on the person, not the argument. I have just moved yet another of his post, as it was mainly attacks on me with nothing to add to the debate. He likes to play the victim, by abusing his opponents and when that is not tolerated, he complains. I don't use argument, I use evidence. Your inability to understand that is why you are doomed to keep on falling for the denier hoax.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Nov 17, 2022 8:28:39 GMT
Evidence is missing from denier claims. Yet the affirmative side has weak evidence. Most is eye witness and Soviet. The evidence you presented is weak, highly ambiguous, with more holes than the Titanic or your fish net stockings.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 17, 2022 8:54:04 GMT
Evidence is missing from denier claims. Yet the affirmative side has weak evidence. Most is eye witness and Soviet. Yet again you are deflecting from the non-existent evidence for an alternative to the present narrative. You cherry-pick the weakest parts of the evidence, such as the hearsay and the obvious atrocity stories, whilst ignoring the rest that you cannot attack with your logically flawed arguments, whilst ignoring your inability to evidence what did happen. Anyone who reads this thread will see that deniers struggle to even describe the methodology they use to determine what did happen.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Nov 17, 2022 9:00:27 GMT
Yet the affirmative side has weak evidence. Most is eye witness and Soviet. Yet again you are deflecting from the non-existent evidence for an alternative to the present narrative. You cherry-pick the weakest parts of the evidence, such as the hearsay and the obvious atrocity stories, whilst ignoring the rest that you cannot attack with your logically flawed arguments, whilst ignoring your inability to evidence what did happen. Anyone who reads this thread will see that deniers struggle to even describe the methodology they use to determine what did happen. Apart from eye witnesses who have lied, lack credibility or integrity there is nothing concrete. If you have nothing more to add that can confirm or deny then say nothing. Your avid fans will decide for themselves. The so called "deniers" have a huge load of material to ridicule. The question I have is why do people like you, so called trained historians fail to impress. This is not deficit thinking but a reality check for you.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 17, 2022 9:12:19 GMT
Yet again you are deflecting from the non-existent evidence for an alternative to the present narrative. You cherry-pick the weakest parts of the evidence, such as the hearsay and the obvious atrocity stories, whilst ignoring the rest that you cannot attack with your logically flawed arguments, whilst ignoring your inability to evidence what did happen. Anyone who reads this thread will see that deniers struggle to even describe the methodology they use to determine what did happen. Apart from eye witnesses who have lied, lack credibility or integrity there is nothing concrete. If there were no witnesses at all, there would still be millions of missing Jews, their stolen property and large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains, along with the Nazi policy to identify, register and imprison all the Jews and then make the occupied territory Jew free. You admit that all you have is ridicule. You do not have evidence. The reality check is for you, to understand that you have fallen for a hoax. If you keep on replying with nothing new to add, that will be treated as trolling and your posts will be moved.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Nov 17, 2022 9:23:25 GMT
If there were no witnesses at all, there would still be millions of missing Jews, their stolen property and large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains, along with the Nazi policy to identify, register and imprison all the Jews and then make the occupied territory Jew free. The missing Jews were paper ones, the spike in the numbers via Untermeyer and the AJC who had full control of the statistics and publication. I doubt if a few hectares of disturbed ground would account for 6 million departed; even those claims are dubious with no hard evidence.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 17, 2022 9:30:14 GMT
If there were no witnesses at all, there would still be millions of missing Jews, their stolen property and large areas of disturbed ground containing cremated remains, along with the Nazi policy to identify, register and imprison all the Jews and then make the occupied territory Jew free. The missing Jews were paper ones, the spike in the numbers via Untermeyer and the AJC who had full control of the statistics and publication. I doubt if a few hectares of disturbed ground would account for 6 million departed; even those claims are dubious with no hard evidence. The missing Jews are the ones the Nazis registered as Jews and who they took into their custody and forced into ghettos, which they then proceeded to empty and close down. The Nazis recorded huge drops in the Jewish population, along with records of mass shootings, the mass theft of Jewish property and declarations of territory being Jew free.
The hectares of disturbed ground at the AR camps, which are the largest mass graves in history, account for about 1.5 million dead. The archaeological and forensic evidence is hard evidence of what happened. You repeat you mantra of no evidence to deflect from your total lack of evidence.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Nov 17, 2022 9:58:36 GMT
The hectares of disturbed ground at the AR camps, which are the largest mass graves in history, account for about 1.5 million dead. The archaeological and forensic evidence is hard evidence of what happened. This is only in your imagination and not factual.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 17, 2022 12:22:21 GMT
The hectares of disturbed ground at the AR camps, which are the largest mass graves in history, account for about 1.5 million dead. The archaeological and forensic evidence is hard evidence of what happened. This is only in your imagination and not factual. OK, so according to you the 1944 aerial photos of the camps, all the witnesses, the site examinations in 1945 and the latter day archaeological surveys are all just my imagination!
That is a typical denier claim, to deflect from your total lack of evidence.
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Post by been_there on Nov 17, 2022 14:31:30 GMT
Suggesting every single Holocaust survivor who witnessed what happened at the AR camps and A-B Kremas is a liar.. This is an idiotic, self-delusional, hyperbolic strawman distortion. It is true. So... This is quite insane denial of reality. That is a combination of an ad hominem attack, a strawman misrepresentation and insane delusion. This is further denial... She/he abuses me and falsely accuses me repeatedly of being a โdenierโ and an โanti-semiteโ. And then deletes posts that expose her/his own actual flawed thinking. But that is standard behaviour of holocaust-narrative defenders. They canโt argue on a fair, even platform. Which is why Skeptics which is dominated by cultish believers bans permanently anyone defeating them in debate using weak and bogus excuses, whereas revisionists give Nessie her/his own forum and make her/him moderator. This demonstrates who are the real โdeniersโ who have precious little evidence for their views nor are interested in the actual, credible evidence.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 17, 2022 17:00:45 GMT
Suggesting every single Holocaust survivor who witnessed what happened at the AR camps and A-B Kremas is a liar.. This is an idiotic, self-delusional, hyperbolic strawman distortion. You have not thought this through. If it is an idiotic strawman distortion to claim that deniers suggest that every witness who was at the AR camps and A-B kremas lied about what they saw happening inside those places, then name one single witness who was there and who deniers accept as truthful. The full quote that you have mined is; "No one has been prosecuted for criticising the atrocity stories that intermingle with the truth about what happened. That is because of the lack of evidence to back up the atrocity stories, or evidence that they are atrocity stories. Note the need for evidence. Evidence is missing from denier claims." Name one person who has been prosecuted for criticising the atrocity stories such as human skin lamp shades, or has presented evidence as to what did happen and was prosecuted. Give me an example of a denier who presents an evidenced narrative as to what did happen at the AR camps or inside the A-B kremas and show me the evidence they used. I did not specifically reference you. I normally refer to you as a revisionist, because you do sit on the fence a lot of the time. But, then you support claims that witnesses lied about seeing mass gassing and that the claims about mass gassings are physically impossible, which is what the open deniers do, so you are clearly far closer to the denier camp, than the academically accepted narrative. I have explained why denial/revisionism is inherently anti-Semitic, and you constantly show support for Holocaust denial conspiracies about the Jews causing the war, faking the gassing claims, and controlling what history is taught. Off topic, abusive, trolling posts are moved, not deleted. It suits my arguments to have your posts still on display, so that others can see what you are like. You are lying that there is precious little evidence to support the academically accepted history. It is denial/revisionism that has little to no evidence to back up its claims. Your rate of abuse is rising again. Any more posts that refer to me as he/she, or idiotic, self-delusional or indeed any comment on me as a person, will result in posts being moved.
You have still been unable to describe your methodology for determining what happened at the AR camps and A-B Kremas, why is that?
You have also, as predicted dodged the following;
You said "ii.) ban, censor and criminalise sharing of the empirical, forensic evidence refuting the H-narrative;" and I asked "...give me a specific example of what evidence you are referring to." Why have you ignored that?
You said "iii.) refuse to allow independent, skeptical, truly scientific investigations at the alleged mass-gassing sites" and I asked "give me a specific example of an independent, sceptical, truly scientific request to examine a mass gassing site, that has been refused". Why have you ignored that?
Stop commenting on me and start to participate in the actual debate, or drop out.
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