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Post by Gibson on Nov 10, 2022 15:09:06 GMT
A specific example would be when I shared Hoess's account of how Krema I was converted into a gas chamber. I raised questions about whether it is realistic to think that they converted the room into a gas chamber immediately before the gassing, including drilling holes in the concrete roof, and also whether they would have been able to fit 900 Russians into the room. When I confronted you with this, you refused to answer whether you accepted it and lapsed back into declaring the holocaust to be true in general. I do not remember you confronting me with that. Can you link to where it happened? I tend not to use Hoess testimony out of principle, because there is evidence of torture to get him to confess. I have also pointed out that his evidence is corroborated by other evidence. The description you quote of a gassing, is the same as many other descriptions, of people being told to undress, crammed into a converted room in a Krema and gassed whilst people outside could hear the distress and screaming. The lack of Prussian blue on the walls of Krema I can be explained by it not being used long enough for staining to appear and it being thoroughly cleaned to covert it to a bomb shelter. The physical evidence of the holes corroborates witnesses who say they were dug out in 1942 for gassings. Their present state is explained by the conversion to a bomb shelter. There is no evidence the roof of the Krema did not have holes in it in 1941. There is circumstantial evidence, from two 1941 documents from Topf & Sons, about how fast and how many bodies can be cremated, 60 in one hour. The physical and other evidence from Krema I fits logically with and corroborates the claims of the witnesses and the chronology of their claims. It is like people confessing to murder with a rather unusual murder weapon, that had been coverted for use for another purpose and hidden in plain sight. Everything fits together, logically, evidentially and chronologically. See here: www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=33312&start=280Nick Terry: "Nessie clearly side-stepped whether he personally felt that particular detail from Hoess's account (holes being knocked in as the train was unloading) was true or not." Just to be clear for Krema I, do you maintain that the documentary evidence that this structure was used as a gas chamber is "very strong"? Do you maintain that the physical evidence is "very strong"? Or would you agree with me that for this building the gassing claim is based heavily on testimonies? |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 10, 2022 15:51:41 GMT
If that is the case, I responded to it then as I do now, the person you are referring to, like you, does not understand evidencing. She also does not say exactly what I was speaking about, that a tattoo evidences gas chambers, as she said she believes the Holocaust happened because she saw a tattoo. I am sure you can see the difference.
Oh boy! More moronic avoidance. ๐ I informed colleagues of discrepancies and impossibilities in the holocaust MASS GASSING narrative. She responded to that. My point stands, she was wrong and clearly, like you, does not understand evidencing. I note, as predicted, you dodged my post here
How is history taught at school and university? Describe the methodology used.
I again predict you will fail to answer.
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Post by Nessie on Nov 10, 2022 16:02:27 GMT
I do not remember you confronting me with that. Can you link to where it happened? I tend not to use Hoess testimony out of principle, because there is evidence of torture to get him to confess. I have also pointed out that his evidence is corroborated by other evidence. The description you quote of a gassing, is the same as many other descriptions, of people being told to undress, crammed into a converted room in a Krema and gassed whilst people outside could hear the distress and screaming. The lack of Prussian blue on the walls of Krema I can be explained by it not being used long enough for staining to appear and it being thoroughly cleaned to covert it to a bomb shelter. The physical evidence of the holes corroborates witnesses who say they were dug out in 1942 for gassings. Their present state is explained by the conversion to a bomb shelter. There is no evidence the roof of the Krema did not have holes in it in 1941. There is circumstantial evidence, from two 1941 documents from Topf & Sons, about how fast and how many bodies can be cremated, 60 in one hour. The physical and other evidence from Krema I fits logically with and corroborates the claims of the witnesses and the chronology of their claims. It is like people confessing to murder with a rather unusual murder weapon, that had been coverted for use for another purpose and hidden in plain sight. Everything fits together, logically, evidentially and chronologically. See here: www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=33312&start=280Nick Terry: "Nessie clearly side-stepped whether he personally felt that particular detail from Hoess's account (holes being knocked in as the train was unloading) was true or not." Just to be clear for Krema I, do you maintain that the documentary evidence that this structure was used as a gas chamber is "very strong"? Do you maintain that the physical evidence is "very strong"? Or would you agree with me that for this building the gassing claim is based heavily on testimonies? As I said, I do tend to side step Hoess testimony, because of the torture issues.
Regarding the strength of the evidence for Krema I, if there were no witnesses, then it would not be evidenced and proved that it had been used as a gas chamber. The holes in the roof would be unexplained and the documents about fast cremations would merely show the Nazis wanted fast cremations, when it operated as a crematorium. As is normal with evidence, it is rare for one piece of evidence to explain and prove everything and it is usual that it takes multiple pieces of evidence to explain and prove what happened. It is normal that in isolation, any individual piece of evidence is weak. It is when the evidence is corroborated by other evidence, that it gains strength. It takes the witnesses, physical etc evidence to prove the Krema I was used for gassings.
The witnesses give evidence of gassings, backed up by the corroborating evidence. Witness claims alone would not be good enough. If the witnesses claimed holes in the roof and there was no trace of holes in the roof, then the witnesses would be either lying or repeating mistaken hearsay.
On its own, neither the witness, documentary or physical evidence is strong. It is only when chronologically, logically and evidentially the evidence is pieced together that it becomes strong. Weak evidence becomes strong evidence when it is corroborated.
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Post by nazgul on Nov 10, 2022 20:37:39 GMT
On its own, neither the witness, documentary or physical evidence is strong. It is only when chronologically, logically and evidentially the evidence is pieced together that it becomes strong. Weak evidence becomes strong evidence when it is corroborated. What Nessie wishes to say but cannot is the following:  |
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Post by nazgul on Nov 10, 2022 21:02:07 GMT
You have not shown any evidence they were all still open and full of prisoners at the end of the war. I have shown that those camps on that route, where the Treblinka trains stopped, relocated to other places as the war advanced. I clearly showed the general movement trend of those camps 1941 and 45 below; this was posted and you have the gall to demand a repeat.   Closed late 1942; according to a prisoner statement February: 1943 deportations The prisoners were "transferred" to the Skarzysko forced labor camp for Jews at the end of 1942  Stopped (approx times): - Kielce...1 hour
- Skarz...1 hour
- Radom... 25 mins
- Deblin...40 mins
- Lukow..50 mins
- Siedlce 1.5 hours
Link to and quote the eyewitnesses. Between August 1942 and summer of 1943 Jews from the Radom district were brought to three camps near the munitions factory to work the factory. According to German records, of the total 17,210 brought in with 58 transports linkYou ask for information and do not bother reading it. You admitted this. Listening to music while trolling. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2022 8:31:02 GMT
On its own, neither the witness, documentary or physical evidence is strong. It is only when chronologically, logically and evidentially the evidence is pieced together that it becomes strong. Weak evidence becomes strong evidence when it is corroborated. What Nessie wishes to say but cannot is the following: You cannot argue against my actual claim, so like so many others I have debated with, you lie about what I have claimed. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2022 8:33:08 GMT
You have not shown any evidence they were all still open and full of prisoners at the end of the war. I have shown that those camps on that route, where the Treblinka trains stopped, relocated to other places as the war advanced. I clearly showed the general movement trend of those camps 1941 and 45 below; this was posted and you have the gall to demand a repeat. Closed late 1942; according to a prisoner statement February: 1943 deportations The prisoners were "transferred" to the Skarzysko forced labor camp for Jews at the end of 1942 Stopped (approx times): - Kielce...1 hour
- Skarz...1 hour
- Radom... 25 mins
- Deblin...40 mins
- Lukow..50 mins
- Siedlce 1.5 hours
Link to and quote the eyewitnesses. Between August 1942 and summer of 1943 Jews from the Radom district were brought to three camps near the munitions factory to work the factory. According to German records, of the total 17,210 brought in with 58 transports linkYou ask for information and do not bother reading it. You admitted this. Listening to music while trolling. Yet again, you have a hypothesis that people got off the trains to the AR camps at the places those trains stopped at and that those who did arrive at TII, were then sent to other camps and all those camps were still open and full of Jews by the end of 1944.
You do not have any evidence that happened.
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Post by nazgul on Nov 11, 2022 8:41:24 GMT
Yet again, you have a hypothesis that people got off the trains to the AR camps at the places those trains stopped at and that those who did arrive at TII, were then sent to other camps and all those camps were still open and full of Jews by the end of 1944. You do not have any evidence that happened. Here are the facts: - There were hundreds of Jewish Labour camps
- Many of those camps were on the same railway lines to Treblinka
- Evidence is given people moved from one camp to another
- Evidence is given showing western relocation of camps westwards as war progressed
- Treblinka transports stopped at those camp locations for considerable periods.
Most likely Treblinka being the final stop meant the train was depleted of its cargo. Of course those camps were not opened at the end, it was a rout. Poles were also in Labour camps and you have no interest in them only Jews? This reminds me of the Ukrainian thread where you worry only about 700 thousand Jews and not give a toss about the 14 million others who died. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2022 8:59:35 GMT
Yet again, you have a hypothesis that people got off the trains to the AR camps at the places those trains stopped at and that those who did arrive at TII, were then sent to other camps and all those camps were still open and full of Jews by the end of 1944. You do not have any evidence that happened. Here are the facts: There were hundreds of Jewish Labour camps Evidence they were all open and full of Jews at the end of the war. Evidence people left the trains and went to those camps. But not specifically the camps you are referring to and those people had been on the TII trains. The evidence is that the number of Jews liberated was in the hundreds of thousands, with the largest camp containing c60,000 prisoners, not all of whom were Jewish. That means millions are missing and you cannot evidence then alive and in camps. You have no evidence people left the trains during the stops. This forum is primarily about what happened to the Jews during WWII. You try to deflect to other groups, for whom there is evidence as to what happened, to deflect from your lack of evidence as to what happened to millions of Jews you claim were not killed. |
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Post by nazgul on Nov 11, 2022 9:08:19 GMT
You have no evidence people left the trains during the stops. Not really worth responding to. Some of these camps had 8 thousand people in them. People have reported they went from one camp on the line to another, then to others. This is given in the main holocaust board with links. Those huge camps were on those railway stops. One can infer that they got their by train. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2022 9:24:03 GMT
You have no evidence people left the trains during the stops. Not really worth responding to. Some of these camps had 8 thousand people in them. People have reported they went from one camp on the line to another, then to others. This is given in the main holocaust board with links. Those huge camps were on those railway stops. One can infer that they got their by train. You have no evidence people got off the trains en route to the AR camps. Instead, the evidence of the witnesses on those trains is that they spent hours, if not days on the trains and by the time they got to the AR camps, dead people had to be removed from the carriages.
By the end of 1942, 1.27 million people had been transported to the AR camps and you cannot find one single witness to your hypothesis.
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Post by nazgul on Nov 11, 2022 9:31:49 GMT
By the end of 1942, 1.27 million people had been transported to the AR camps and you cannot find one single witness to your hypothesis. I think you need to change that to "through", as Korherr wrote. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2022 9:53:23 GMT
By the end of 1942, 1.27 million people had been transported to the AR camps and you cannot find one single witness to your hypothesis. I think you need to change that to "through", as Korherr wrote. Again, where is the evidence that happened? Korherr said he was told of mass resettlement in the Lublin district, so evidence camps containing 1.27 million people there by the end of 1942. That would be easy, if it had happened.
This thread is supposed to be a critique of my "arguments". My "arguments" are chronologically, logically, contemporaneously evidenced backed claims as to what did happen. I use the methodology taught in schools and universities, where history is determined by evidence from witnesses, documents, archaeology, physical items, images and circumstances.
No one here is able to challenge that methodology and show a better one. Indeed, it is clear everyone is out of their depth and does not understand evidencing at all.
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Post by nazgul on Nov 11, 2022 10:08:51 GMT
No one here is able to challenge that methodology and show a better one. Indeed, it is clear everyone is out of their depth and does not understand evidencing at all. Evidencing and the truth are two different beasts. History can be interpreted in different ways; second, history can be misunderstood, and third, history will always have gaps. It is an incomplete story. You are not interested in history but a narrative that is seriously flawed. |
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Post by Nessie on Nov 11, 2022 11:33:47 GMT
No one here is able to challenge that methodology and show a better one. Indeed, it is clear everyone is out of their depth and does not understand evidencing at all. Evidencing and the truth are two different beasts. The truth can only be reliably determined by evidence. That is why historians, lawyers & journalists all look for evidence. Correct. The evidence of mass killings does have gaps, different interpretations and can be misunderstood. The denier narrative of no mass murders is not evidenced at all. How is my narrative seriously flawed, when it is evidenced to have happened and you cannot evidence your hypothesis that something else happened? |
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