Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 21, 2022 9:39:08 GMT
The "900,000" comes from 1 - documents recording how many and the number of transports were sent to the camp 2 - witness estimations 3 - the size of area of disturbed ground as shown in the 1944 aerial photo and found in the archaeological investigations. As previously mentioned, the final destination on any train journey does not imply (except in Nessie's world) that all the passengers transited there. On the transport documents presented as evidence clearly show significant stops at locations of labour Camps for Jews. I suggest that most of the passengers disembarked long before Treblinka. Evidence is a more reliable methodology for determining what happened, than suggestion. Estimations based on evidence, some of which are more accurate than others. Consistently, the earliest estimations were over estimations, replaced by more accurate figures as more evidence came to light. The photo shows undisturbed ground as lighter than the disturbed ground, and it shows rectangular outlines in the part of the camp where the Lazarett was located, which multiple witnesses state had a mass grave. Instead of discussing methodology, which is clearly a topic beyond your understanding, you merely repeat your doubts about the evidence there is, and make unevidenced suggestions about what you think happened. Evidence. You need evidence.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Nov 21, 2022 9:41:44 GMT
Evidence. You need evidence. Facts. You need facts.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 21, 2022 9:42:45 GMT
Evidence. You need evidence. Facts. You need facts. How do you establish the facts as to what happened? Describe your methodology.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Nov 25, 2022 9:32:53 GMT
It has often been said that denial folds when asked, "where did they go?". I have proved it also folds and gives up when asked "explain your methodology for determining what happened".
Denial is dead, only followed by a few extremists whose religious, cultist like beliefs over ride logic and reason.
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Gibson
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Patrician
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Post by Gibson on Nov 29, 2022 1:55:26 GMT
It has often been said that denial folds when asked, "where did they go?". I have proved it also folds and gives up when asked "explain your methodology for determining what happened". Denial is dead, only followed by a few extremists whose religious, cultist like beliefs over ride logic and reason. Keep dreaming, Nessie. How many people are there like you who are familiar with all the problems yet still believe in the holocaust? You are the only one here. At Skeptic Forum there are, what, six regular posters? Most people "believe" in it by default but only because they've never looked into it. Among those who have, a substantial fraction think it's false.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 1, 2022 10:50:06 GMT
It has often been said that denial folds when asked, "where did they go?". I have proved it also folds and gives up when asked "explain your methodology for determining what happened". Denial is dead, only followed by a few extremists whose religious, cultist like beliefs over ride logic and reason. Keep dreaming, Nessie. How many people are there like you who are familiar with all the problems yet still believe in the holocaust? You are the only one here. At Skeptic Forum there are, what, six regular posters? Most people "believe" in it by default but only because they've never looked into it. Among those who have, a substantial fraction think it's false. It seems Nessie has said his bit and gone into the wilderness. Perhaps he and this board should be archived and Nessie laid to rest.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 1, 2022 11:27:07 GMT
It has often been said that denial folds when asked, "where did they go?". I have proved it also folds and gives up when asked "explain your methodology for determining what happened". Denial is dead, only followed by a few extremists whose religious, cultist like beliefs over ride logic and reason. Keep dreaming, Nessie. How many people are there like you who are familiar with all the problems yet still believe in the holocaust? You are the only one here. At Skeptic Forum there are, what, six regular posters? Most people "believe" in it by default but only because they've never looked into it. Among those who have, a substantial fraction think it's false. The majority of people believe the Holocaust happened, as described by historians, because they trust the historians to be accurate, they have seen much of the evidence themselves and there is no evidenced alternative.
The majority of people who dive a bit deeper into what happened, are not fooled by denier arguments and recognise their excuses for disbelieving the evidence, whilst unable to evidence what did happen, is not logically sound.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 1, 2022 18:47:28 GMT
The World Is Full of Holocaust Deniers The majority of people believe the Holocaust happened, as described by historians, because they trust the historians to be accurate, they have seen much of the evidence themselves and there is no evidenced alternative. Not according to the survey done by the ADL. While the majority of the people may have heard of the term "holocaust", the table shows that the majority of people (in grey) do not think it has been described accurately by historians. This is 62.3% of the participants. 42.4% are true believers. This is another example where this poster makes statements without any evidence but on emotion. As if true, he goes on to state the conclusion As his premise is demonstrably wrong that conclusion fails by default. Of course soon as people present evidence they are instantly labelled as a denier by this poster. This is a feeble attempt to stop dissent, failing miserably. The belief in the Holocaust as expounded to the masses is gently fading like ceรฒ Albannach on a rare fine Highland morning.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 1, 2022 19:26:58 GMT
The World Is Full of Holocaust Deniers The majority of people believe the Holocaust happened, as described by historians, because they trust the historians to be accurate, they have seen much of the evidence themselves and there is no evidenced alternative. Not according to the survey done by the ADL. While the majority of the people may have heard of the term "holocaust", the table shows that the majority of people (in grey) do not think it has been described accurately by historians. This is 62.3% of the participants. 42.4% are true believers. This is another example where this poster makes statements without any evidence but on emotion. As if true, he goes on to state the conclusion There is obviously going to be disagreement. For example, from the linked to article "Some said they thought the number of people who died has been exaggerated; others said they believe it's a myth." A belief that the death toll is exaggerated is very different from thinking the whole thing is a myth. If more people knew that historians tend to use a lower figure than the media favourite of 6 million, the number who think the death toll is exaggerated would drop. Those who think it is a myth, would also drop, if it was pointed out to them, that there is no evidence millions did not die and were liberated at the end of the war. It is odd you find the term denier objectionable, when you deny what the historians have evidenced to have happened. In any case, you do not present evidence as to what happened.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 1, 2022 21:05:11 GMT
A belief that the death toll is exaggerated is very different from thinking the whole thing is a myth. If more people knew that historians tend to use a lower figure than the media favourite of 6 million, the number who think the death toll is exaggerated would drop. Those who think it is a myth, would also drop, if it was pointed out to them, that there is no evidence millions did not die and were liberated at the end of the war. Many of the claims regarding this holocaust are fraudulent, some of it due to pure ignorance and information lost in the fog of war. The "estimated" 6 million number has been bandied about long before WWII started, the alleged holocaust being just the last in a long series of dire prophecies. Even in 1940 the 6 million prophecy of doom was made. Joplin News Herald (Joplin, MO), Tuesday, June 25, 1940, p.3.
It stands to reason that such prophecies made prior to the alleged events, then they must come to pass, even in the imagination. There is no evidence that about 6 million did die. As mentioned to another poster the population statistics (unfudged) show a largely unchanged population. Even the term holocaust was used in these prophecies of hell some 6 years before the alleged events took place. There are many more such old newspaper clips, but the point has been made. Again the poster goes on about liberation as though he knows exactly what happened in camps he did not even know existed, until we pointed them out to him. It has been shown the numerous labour camps der russische Osten einschlieรlich der Ukraine along with the trend westwards as the eastern front began falling. The retreat turned into a rout. It is clear that while some camps surrendered the Germans had fled taking prisoners if they wanted to come. This happened at Auschwitz, In Lublin less than 500 remained when the Soviet horde arrived. It is clear that the Jewish Labour camps still remained intact in Austria and elsewhere in 1945. This is especially so for the Hungarian Jews held captive in Austria. The closure of these camps and release of inmates is largely unknown at this stage being work in progress. What is certain is the Germans did not keep labour camps open for dead people. Zwangarbeitslager fรผr juden 1945
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 2, 2022 2:23:55 GMT
In any case, you do not present evidence as to what happened. With this poster an infinite regression of "evidence" is needed, nothing which can satisfy the gluttonous appetite for self deception. Without facts this poster has made many assertions, most based on witness testimony. This might have credibility if there witnesses had some consistency with their statements; the inconsistency goes well beyond lack of attention to minor detail. That aside the poster has assumed that Labour Camp detainees should have stayed in the camps waiting to liberated by the loving Russians or whoever. While it is true that in some konzentrationslager like Belsen a huge contingent of hรคftling were ill with typhus and other gremlins, which is why the camp was surrendered. As shown above and elsewhere there were many Labour camps for Jews still in existence till the wars end. Here is a statement from the Jewish girl called Miss X who was in a zwangarbeitslager fรผr juden at the end of the war. Miss X was drafted into a labour camp of the Organisation Todt, Unternehmen Berthold, (company Berthold) about 20 miles from Breslau. Her draft was in 1944. Miss X stated: This is the norm for the labour camps, not the exception in all probability. Of course I could give, 10, 50, 100 such statements which highlight the reality at wars end in the camps; no amount of evidence to the contrary, no amount of reality will satisfy the gluttonous appetite for self deception.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 2, 2022 9:03:01 GMT
In any case, you do not present evidence as to what happened. With this poster an infinite regression of "evidence" is needed, nothing which can satisfy the gluttonous appetite for self deception. You cannot produce any contemporaneous evidence directly pertaining to the AR camps and A-B Kremas to prove what did happen. The witness inconsistencies are only in the details and their claims are corroborated by documents, physical, archaeological and circumstantial evidence. You have not shown evidence that they were still in use at the wars end and you ignore that only a few hundred thousand Jews were liberated. If denial was correct, millions of Jews should have been liberated. You cherry pick individual accounts that support your belief that millions of Jews were freed at the end of the war. That is not sufficient evidence to prove your claim.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 2, 2022 9:12:09 GMT
You cannot produce any contemporaneous evidence directly pertaining to the AR camps and A-B Kremas to prove what did happen. I have shown good probability that those people did not arrive but were sequestered to labour camps. So it is repeated again with no substance to support such waffle. Despite independent research maps showing labour camps in 45 this poster thinks they were empty. As mentioned I doubt several thousand such statements would satiate the delusion you experience.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Dec 2, 2022 10:01:20 GMT
You cannot produce any contemporaneous evidence directly pertaining to the AR camps and A-B Kremas to prove what did happen. I have shown good probability that those people did not arrive but were sequestered to labour camps. Not true, you have no evidence, just a hypothesis. A high probability would be where you have evidence from witnesses, documents etc to support your claim. Millions of people inside a series of massive camps would leave a lot of evidence. Every single witness who worked inside an AR camp describes the same process of mass arrivals, mass theft of all their property, gassings, graves and the use of pyres to cremate bodies. That process is also described at A-B, with the mass cremations in ovens and no use of mass graves. There is no witness who was inside any of those places who describes something different. Those maps show the locations of camps throughout the war. They do not say that all of those camps were still operating in 1945 and that they were full of Jews. Instead, the Soviets liberated mostly empty camps and the largest liberation was by the British, at Bergen-Belsen, with c60,000, not all of whom were Jewish. If the Nazis had not been gassing and shooting millions, then millions would have been liberated at the end of the war. Instead, it was a few hundred thousand. That is not how evidence works. If there was one witness speaking to millions being liberated at the end of the war, that could be sufficient evidence, if that witness was someone who was in a position to know what was happening, such as a senior Nazi, who was responsible for the camps. If you had thousands of witnesses, who speak to being liberated from hundreds of different camps, which were all packed full of Jews, all over Europe, that would be good evidence of mass survival. The problem for you and the others here (who at the moment have all run away and gone quiet) is that you have never been taught about evidencing and how it works. You just do not understand that one witness can be strong evidence for a claim, but an example of one prisoner escaping, along with a few hundred is not evidence of mass liberations all over Europe.
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Dec 2, 2022 18:42:11 GMT
Not true, you have no evidence, just a hypothesis. A high probability would be where you have evidence from witnesses, documents etc to support your claim. Millions of people inside a series of massive camps would leave a lot of evidence. The camps were full of Jews. The Sobibor witnesses mentions a good number of similar places they went to. The trains did stop at the locations of major labour camps. There is a high probability that people got off to work in those camps. It is a mere assumption that they did not. It has been discussed that the Soviet Investigator Ginsberg "had toured the concentration camps of Auschwitz, Birkenau, Majdanek, Treblinka, Sobibor and all the others in Poland, as a member of the official Soviet inspection team and he found no evidence whatsoever of any attempt on the part of the Germans to exterminate anyone and certainly not by means of lethal gas chambers!" You will need to find each of those camps and tell the board the closing date. Mauthausen closed in May 45 by the US Army; it was not the Soviets at all. It is likely that the rest of the camps collapsed at that time. Either way those maps show Zwangarbeitslager not konzentrationslager. Those camps were for Jews only, the Austrian camps specifically for Hungarian Jews. Millions of Jews survived this war, no one hears the large masses standing up and speaking, a few like Miss X state their story but largely ignored. What captures the public imagination are fantastic horror stories, the lies you believe in.
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