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Post by been_there on Oct 26, 2022 13:40:15 GMT
It would seem Jews fared better than their fellow countrymen. Those that were targeted were classed a enemy aliens. Why were people living in a country the Germans invaded classed โenemy aliens?โ You really donโt know the answer to that question? ๐ฎ [Sigh ๐] Jewry had declared war on the National Socialist regime and started an intensive blockade against Germany in 1933. Didn't you know? Or are you in denial of that FACT? The International Jewish Boycott Conference assembled in Holland in the summer of 1933 under the Presidency of prominent Jewish lawyer Samuel Untermyer. The World Jewish Economic Federation was then formed to combat the opposition to Jews in Germany. In America soon after, Untermyer gave a speech over the radio. A transcript of his speech was printed in the New York Times on August 7th, 1933, Untermeyer referred in the opening phrases to what would today be called a terrorist jihad if Untermyer had been a muslim. He called the mobilisation of Jews worldwide a โ holy war in the cause of humanity in which we are embarkedโ. He describing himself and his fellow Jews as the โaristocrats of the worldโ and said โe ach of you, Jew and Gentile alike, who has not already enlisted in this sacred war should do so now and here.โThose Jews who he anticipated might feel some reluctance he denounced, attacking them as โ traitors to their race.โIn January 1934 Mr. Jabotinsky, founder of Revisionist Zionism, wrote in Natcha Retch: โThe fight against Germany has been carried out for months by every Jewish community, conference, trade organisation, by every Jew in the world. We shall let loose a spiritual and a material war of the whole world against Germany.โ
I have many times quoted Chaim Weizmann referring to Jews in Europe as the frontline in that โholy Jewish warโ and as fifth columnists operating like a trojan horse. |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 26, 2022 13:53:45 GMT
Signs of ground disturbance deep enough to conceal the claimed amount of people would not โfloat awayโ. ๐คฆโโ๏ธ So, YES, I do think that if a mass-grave the size that would be required to bury the uncremated bodies of the โ estimated 70,000 to 100,000 peopleโ who were supposedly โ murdered at Babi Yar during the German occupation of Kievโ thenย the requisite ground disturbance would not be totally erased by a flood upon the surface. Nor do I believe that the majority of the 3 million teeth + bone shards would just disappear from the area IF the highly emotional narrative were accurate. Been-there, do you think after a flood and the changes in geography that are documented and even shown by Nessie do you think we could still find traces of burned bodies? |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 26, 2022 14:05:58 GMT
Can you really not see and concede that that is a highly emotional account that does not come any where near answering my extremely simple question to you? I concede when there is a reason to do so. 1) The geography is changed from 1945. 2) We have German documents indicating a massacre took place. The Germans themselves specified they murdered Jews. This is in the nature of a personal attack which is a violation of forum rules. Furthermore the entire paragraph is off-topic. Please refrain from violating forum rules. There was a flood as well as development of the area which altered the landscape. We also know that the Germans burned the corpses. This would make it difficult to determine the exact location. 1) We arenโt discussing Birkenau or Treblinka, this part of the forum is about the Einsatzgruppen. Please stay on topic. 2) We arenโt discussing memory laws. 3) This is not an editorial page. If you wish to editorialize then please do so in Siberian Exile. |
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Post by been_there on Oct 26, 2022 14:15:52 GMT
Can you really not see and concede that that is a highly emotional account that does not come any where near answering my extremely simple question to you? I concede when there is a reason to do so. Again another extremely simple question dodged. ๐๐ Presumably because you know it IS an extremely emotionalised account of the alleged massacre of 30,000 or 70,000 or 100,000 alleged jooish victims at Babi Yar, but canโt be honest enough to admit it. Without an honest discussion that does not dodge questions put, no meaningful debate can occur. Therefore again making it impossible to have an honest, reasonable genuine discussion. |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 26, 2022 14:19:36 GMT
Why were people living in a country the Germans invaded classed โenemy aliens?โ You really donโt know the answer to that question? ๐ฎ [Sigh ๐] Jewry had declared war on the National Socialist regime and started an intensive blockade against Germany in 1933. Didn't you know? Or are you in denial of that FACT? This is off topic, however it does have bearing based upon Nazgรปlโs comment so I will answer. 1) โJewryโ is an amorphous term that assumes that the Jews at that time all thought and acted the same. This is not the case. German Jews opposed the boycott because they thought it might make things worse. Working class Jews supported the boycott but upper middle class and rich Jews opposed it because like the German Jews they thought it might make things worse. They preferred negotiation. 2) A boycott is not a declaration of war. No one said that boycotting South Africa was tantamount to declaring war on them. A boycott is a perfectly honorable tradition of non-violent protest. 3) Soviet, Polish and Baltic Jews probably had no clue that there was any boycott taking place so murdering them over some non-existent declaration of war is a massive overreaction. I could probably say the same of a large percentage of the Jews the Germans murdered during the war. Probably Western Jews and upper class Jews in places like Hungary or Romania may have know but probably a large percentage of the Eastern Jews did not. |
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Post by Nessie on Oct 26, 2022 14:23:54 GMT
Regarding this comment;
"The same situation that you have at Babi Yar you true-believers have at T2 and Birkenau. I.e, you have an emotionalised, greatly exaggerated/false mythology that can not be supported by empirical evidence. On the contrary, the archeological, forensic and empirical evidence REFUTES it."
I would like to see the archaeological, forensic and empirical evidence that refutes a series of massacres took place at Babi Yar. The only physical site examination was the 1944 Soviet one, of which we have very limited information.
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Post by Nessie on Oct 26, 2022 14:25:40 GMT
It would also be good to see some evidence as to what did happen to the Jews in Kiev in 1941, if they were not all shot at Babi Yar.
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 26, 2022 15:06:04 GMT
I concede when there is a reason to do so. Again another extremely simple question dodged. ๐๐ Presumably because you know it IS an extremely emotionalised account of the alleged massacre of 30,000 or 70,000 or 100,000 alleged jooish victims at Babi Yar, but canโt be honest enough to admit it. Without an honest discussion that does not dodge questions put, no meaningful debate can occur.ย Therefore again making it impossible to have an honest, reasonable genuine discussion.ย Iโm sorry, been-there, if you have this expectation that Iโm simply going to parrot responses to make you happy then Iโm afraid you are going to be disappointed. So far we know the following: 1) The Germans documented the killings. 2) The Germans then attempted to cover up this crime by burning the bodies. 3) Subsequently the Soviets let the site lapse, altered the geography and there was a major flood in the area. 4) It is also 80 years after the mass killings. |
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Post by been_there on Oct 26, 2022 15:53:44 GMT
Again another extremely simple question dodged. ๐๐ Presumably because you know it IS an extremely emotionalised account of the alleged massacre of 30,000 or 70,000 or 100,000 alleged jooish victims at Babi Yar, but canโt be honest enough to admit it. Without an honest discussion that does not dodge questions put, no meaningful debate can occur. Therefore again making it impossible to have an honest, reasonable genuine discussion. Iโm sorry if you have this expectation that Iโm simply going to parrot responses to make you happy then Iโm afraid you are going to be disappointed. So far we know the following: 1) The Germans documented the killings. 2) The Germans then attempted to cover up this crime by burning the bodies. 3) Subsequently the Soviets let the site lapse, altered the geography and there was a major flood in the area. 4) It is also 80 years after the mass killings. The only expectation I have for a genuine discussion is that we each discuss honestly and do not dishonestly dodge simple and pertinent wuestions put to us. You DID post this link: www.yadvashem.org/education/educational-materials/lesson-plans/babi-yar/historical-background4.htmlYou DID do that after projecting your own psychology onto others about being โemotionalโ. It was a simple question, twice dodged: do you concede it is an emotionalised account that you shared and which DID NOT answer the question you were asked. Like most Holy H true-believers you try to silence critical thinking and debate by โrulesโ. On part of the old RODOH โ and over at CODOH โ one of the rules is not to dodge questions. ๐ |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 26, 2022 16:36:30 GMT
Iโm sorry if you have this expectation that Iโm simply going to parrot responses to make you happy then Iโm afraid you are going to be disappointed. So far we know the following: 1) The Germans documented the killings. 2) The Germans then attempted to cover up this crime by burning the bodies. 3) Subsequently the Soviets let the site lapse, altered the geography and there was a major flood in the area. 4) It is also 80 years after the mass killings. The only expectation I have for a genuine discussion is that we each discuss honestly and do not dishonestly dodge simple and pertinent wuestions put to us. Itโs hard to claim I ducked a question when I did indeed answer it. You have this issue that unless the answer is exactly the way you want it you consider it a โdodge.โ Letโs get this straight: I answer you in the form and fashion I consider appropriate. Is this understood or would you like me to use smaller words? I posted two links, been-there. It is not a requirement that you like the links I posted. Itโs also not a requirement that you accept what is in the links. FFS, those are the rules of THIS FORUM. I have not insulted you or gone off topic. So again, please confine yourself to the topic at hand. If you wish to discuss boycotts then please open a thread under the appropriate subforum. |
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Post by been_there on Oct 26, 2022 17:50:20 GMT
Iโm sorry if you have this expectation that Iโm simply going to parrot responses to make you happy then Iโm afraid you are going to be disappointed... The only expectation I have for a genuine discussion is that we each discuss honestly and do not dishonestly dodge simple and pertinent wuestions put to us. You DID post this link: www.yadvashem.org/education/educational-materials/lesson-plans/babi-yar/historical-background4.htmlYou DID do that after projecting your own psychology onto others about being โemotionalโ. It was a simple question, twice dodged: do you concede it is an emotionalised account that you shared and which DID NOT answer the question you were asked. Like most Holy H true-believers you try to silence critical thinking and debate by โrulesโ. On part of the old RODOH โ and over at CODOH โ one of the rules is not to dodge questions. ๐ Jeff, stop getting emotional, and please stop dodging simple questions. You DID post this link in answer to a question put to you: www.yadvashem.org/education/educational-materials/lesson-plans/babi-yar/historical-background4.htmlConcerning THAT link, do you concede: 1.) that it is an emotionalised account of the Babi Yar anti-German, holocaust allegation and 2. that DID NOT answer the question you were asked about precise location of the alleged mass-grave. Yes or no? |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 26, 2022 19:05:26 GMT
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 26, 2022 19:09:53 GMT
Now that weโve discussed Babi Yar (before I necessarily wanted to do so, however, this is the direction the thread took and I appreciate the responses) my next posts will look at additional actions taken in the Ukraine. It may be some time before I post additional information. Maybe a couple of daysโฆ
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Post by ๐ฅ๐ฐ๐๐ด๐ป๐ธ on Oct 26, 2022 19:29:19 GMT
It would also be good to see some evidence as to what did happen to the Jews in Kiev in 1941, if they were not all shot at Babi Yar. This is another Nessie "where did they go" scenario. The Jews in the Ukraine amounted to a third of the population, If they died in proportionate numbers to the rest of the population this should amount to 3.3 million Jewish deaths. Yet the sources say only a million Jews died in the Ukraine, far less than the rest and yet it is claimed they were targeted. |
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Post by been_there on Oct 26, 2022 20:26:47 GMT
This is another person in deep denial of extremely simple basic facts. ๐คช |
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