The Holocaust in the Ukraine

Here is additional information about what happened at the site after the war ended.

www.yadvashem.org/education/educational-materials/lesson-plans/babi-yar/historical-background4.html

What been-there and others like him refuse to acknowledge is the the Soviets suppressed discussion of the Jewish victims, lumping them together. Which is strange since all I’ve heard since I began my journey into Holocaust dEnIal about seven years ago the narrative is that this is all about Jews and nobody else.

Yes because there were more non-Jewish Ukrainians than Jewish Ukrainians. Because of the nature of the warfare on the Eastern Front and German occupation policies naturally there would be more non-Jewish victims. But the Germans didn’t target non-Jewish Ukrainians with the same ferocity and tenacity as the Jewish victims.



Because the suffering isn’t the same.

Consider this:

The Germans didn’t order 30,000 + Ukrainians to assemble or round up 30,000 + Ukrainians after the explosions in Kiev. No, they ordered the “Yids” to assemble. They then shot the lot with the help of Ukrainian auxiliaries. So you would have a valid argument if the Germans shot Ukrainian gentiles with some Jewish victims sprinkled in. No one is specifically targeted under that scenario and we are looking at a war crime. But what makes it genocide is targeting a specific group.

I’ll even concede this point. The Germans used Babi Yar as a body dump throughout the occupation, murdering Soviet POWS, partisans, Ukrainians unlucky enough to be swept up in retaliatory actions….and depending on the circumstances those may be war crimes to be judged individually. But this started with the mass shooting of over 30,000 Jewish residents of Kiev.

You aren’t addressing that Germans targeted Jews specifically and Ukrainians joined in on this mass murder. It’s one thing for people to die during wartime, it’s quite another to specifically target one group for destruction.

I do applaud you admitting it happened. It is quite telling that you don’t consider it a big deal.

Oh boy! 🙄
Signs of ground disturbance deep enough to conceal the claimed amount of people would not ‘float away’. 🤦‍♂️

So, YES, I do think that if a mass-grave the size that would be required to bury the uncremated bodies of the “estimated 70,000 to 100,000 people” who were supposedly “murdered at Babi Yar during the German occupation of Kiev” then the requisite ground disturbance would not be totally erased by a flood upon the surface. Nor do I believe that the majority of the 3 million teeth + bone shards would just disappear from the area IF the highly emotional narrative were accurate.

The Soviets did not care about what had happened to the Jews, as the Soviets, not the Jews were the main victims of WWII. Massacres of Jews were used by the Soviets as part of the anti-Nazi propaganda, and as has been discussed before, they produced inflated figures of death tolls and poorly researched reports into what had happened. Much of what is attributed to the Soviets by revisionists, was actually by the Polish, as they researched and looked for evidence as to what had happened. The Poles who had been in power prior to 1939 did try to re-establish power in 1945, but they failed.

There was no Ukrainian authority to do what the Poles did. Ukraine was Soviet before the war. The Soviets had total control over any work done as to what had happened inside Ukraine, at Babi Yar and Maly Trostenets. Immediately post war, some basic excavations took place, of which they are no details that I can find. The evidence for Babi Yar primarily came from witnesses and circumstantial evidence.

www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/by4-physical-evidence/

"The Soviet’s Extraordinary State Commission physically investigated Babi Yar in 1944, digging five exploratory pits. According to their report, they discovered actual bodies in two pits. The report also said: “we came across the numerous remains of the burned bodies, clothes and bones . . . in Kiev mass murders of the Russian civilian population were unprecedented in scope . . . the victims of which were several tens of thousands of men, women and children.”"

The Soviets never did any detailed physical examination of any Holocaust site. I think most revisionists know that, so it is a puzzle why some keep on asking to be shown physical evidence of those sites. Babi Yar is complicated further by what happened after the war;

"However, today we cannot find the ash and bone Kuznetsov described—much less the mass graves—because the ravine was completely changed by a massive mudslide in 1961.
Kuznetsov describes the event that changed the ravine forever: “They [Russian engineers] built a dam across the end of Babi Yar and proceeded to pump pulp—a mixture of water and mud—into it through pipes from the neighboring quarries of the brickworks. The ravine was turned into a lake . . . The water in the lake was evil-smelling, green and stagnant, and the noise of the pulp pouring out of the pipes went on day and night. That lasted for several years. Each year the dam was strengthened and increased in height, until by 1951 it was the height of a six-storey building. On Monday, March 13th, 1961, it collapsed. The spring rains had rushed down into the ravine and filled the lake to overflowing; the channels could not deal with the volume of water and it went right over the top of the dam.” A thirty-foot high wall of water, mud and debris rushed down the ravine with the speed of an express train. The wall of mud and water washed away the entire neighborhood of Kurenivka. Kuznetsov reports: “Houses which stood in the way of the wave were swept away is if made of cardboard. A few trams were carried along by it a couple of hundred yards and then buried. So were the tram terminus, the hospital, the stadium, an instrument factory and the whole of the residential quarter.”"

So, no modern day excavations are possible. Revisionists cannot even be shown exactly where the ravines were, though there has been work that claims to identify the location, this is from 2020;

www.timesofisrael.com/mystery-solved-babyn-yar-massacre-location-pinpointed-after-79-years/

"Only in recent months were hundreds of puzzle pieces assembled by Martin Dean, a former Scotland Yard investigator who specializes in Nazi war crimes. Through the efforts of Dean and the Babyn Yar Holocaust Memorial Center (BYHMC), a 3-D simulation of the massacre site — then and now — was created."

There is no point in asking to be shown the ravines and the human remains. It cannot be done.

Didn't happen then all rhetoric no proof.

Why were people living in a country the Germans invaded classed “enemy aliens?”




Why are you not addressing the fact that those killed were targeted as Jews?