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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 19, 2022 14:15:53 GMT
If it is considered racist ‘anti-semitism’ to proffer credible and compelling evidencd that Jews DID concoct a false narrative of attempted genocide of ALL Jews primarily using death-camp gas-chambers, Except this is not the case. This is again a hyper emotional reaction that’s not based upon the history itself. The history of the Holocaust includes mass shooting and deaths caused by the conditions the Germans (and others) placed Jews in. Gas chambers were another method. Been-there, I’d like to remind you that the subforum this thread is in deals with the Einsatzgruppen. I’m going to broadly interpret that as mass shootings in general but it does not include discussion of gas chambers. The above comment is off-topic, please confine yourself to the topic at hand. I understand you are dealing with certain emotional issues related with the picture I posted. But please limit your emotional reaction to the picture and not going off on a tangent. Thank you. I’m always willing to accept corrections. Aimless speculation based upon emotional reaction is not correcting anything. No, that’s literally what happened. However this is off topic. I am certainly willing to indulge a certain amount of off-topic discussion because it opens new avenues to explore. But discussing heads and such things in a section of the forum not dedicated to those subjects is veering us off-topic. I suggest taking such discussions elsewhere. The same with talk about forgeries. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Oct 19, 2022 21:42:06 GMT
However this is off topic. I am certainly willing to indulge a certain amount of off-topic discussion because it opens new avenues to explore. But discussing heads and such things in a section of the forum not dedicated to those subjects is veering us off-topic. I suggest taking such discussions elsewhere. The same with talk about forgeries.
Being slightly off topic is fine so long as it does not result in a derail. The man in the image looks very sick, probably typhus as were the corpses in the mass grave. So was there a typhus epidemic in the Vinnytsia Oblast? Lets explore this possibility. "Munich-Allach concentration camp was a forced labour camp (Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden) established by the Nazi Schutzstaffel (SS) in Allach-Untermenzing, a suburb of Munich in southern Germany, in 1943. It provided labour for nearby factories of BMW, Dyckerhoff, Sager & Woerner, Kirsch Sägemühle, Pumpel Lochhausen and Organisation Todt with up to 17,000 prisoners in 1945."There was a typhus epidemic in that camp. The Reich was concerned with typhus due to its impact after WWI; 5 million Germans perished. There was no need the epidemic cleared up by 1942 or the people had left. The assumption of course is extermination. "Five thousand Jews were deported to Shargorod in the Vinnytsia Oblast from Bessarabia and Bukovina,(link) adding to the 2,000 who were already there. Around seven thousand Jewish people were kept in a ghetto, Shargorod.(Shargorod). Many of the Jews in this ghetto either died of disease or were deported to labour camps,(Allach Zwangsarbeitslager für Juden) and by 1943 there were about 3,000 Jews left.
In the town of Shargorod in the Vinnytsia oblast, the medical services established in the ghetto were inadequate and “made it impossible to block a typhus epidemic early in 1942.”
There is no mention in this report of mass shootings, just death by typhus in Vinnystsia and subsequent deportations to Labour camps where this photo eventually turns up. The report certainly negates the following canard " All 28,000 Jews from Vinnitsa and its surrounding areas were massacred at the time."
It appears that this image shows the euthanasia program 14f13 in action not Einsatzgruppe D. |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 20, 2022 0:12:54 GMT
However this is off topic. I am certainly willing to indulge a certain amount of off-topic discussion because it opens new avenues to explore. But discussing heads and such things in a section of the forum not dedicated to those subjects is veering us off-topic. I suggest taking such discussions elsewhere. The same with talk about forgeries.
Being slightly off topic is fine so long as it does not result in a derail. The man in the image looks very sick, probably typhus as were the corpses in the mass grave. So was there a typhus epidemic in the Vinnytsia Oblast? Lets explore this possibility. Why are they shooting a man over a mass grave filled with typhus victims? That’s certainly fascinating but Munich isn’t close to Vinnitsa. I mean I’m always interested in learning new things but how this relates to the picture is a bit of a mystery. Other than the information on how it was found. Reading through the article it appears the ghetto residents tried to take better epidemic precautions. But Warsaw is not Vinnitsa.    You missed this bit: The Jewish population in the area was, according to this: myshtetl.org/vinnitskaja/vinnica_en.htmlIf you deport 5,000 to add to the remainder 2,000 you get 7,000. If the prewar population was around 33,000 and you subtract 7,000 from 33,000 you get about 26,000…close enough to the stated 28,000. The point is at one point you had 33,000 Jews and later on you have 7,000. Of those 5,000 were deported then you have a lot of missing Jews that were there previously. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Oct 20, 2022 0:58:38 GMT
If you take time to read the discourse on Vinnytsia the reports as below do not show mass murder. It is true that the Romanians did cull a thousand typhus victims in their camp at Vapniarka, accepting thousands more after the epidemic was cleared. From the Jewish Virtual Library
Shargorod was occupied by the Germans on July 22, 1941, and annexed by the Romanians to Transnistria in September. A ghetto and a Jewish police were established. In October–November the Romanians added about 5,000 Jews – mainly from Bukovina, but also from Bessarabia – to the 1,800 Jews of the town and its environs. The crowding in the ghetto caused epidemics, and by June 1942 some 1,449 had died of typhus. The Judenrat fought the epidemics by opening a hospital, a pharmacy, and a sanitation station. With the help of the Aid Commitee from Bucharest it organized shops where food, medicine, clothes, and other essentials were produced. An orphanage and school for 186 children was opened. About 1,000 Jews were dispersed on June 30 into 10 nearby villages, and in May 1943 some 175 were sent to a labour camp in Trikhaty (near Nikolayev), where they perished. In September 1943 there were still 2,731 Jews from Bukovina and 240 from Bessarabia in the Shargorod ghetto. In 1979, 800 Jews (23% of the total population) lived there, but there was no synagogue. Most of the Jews left in the 1990s.Why are they shooting a man over a mass grave filled with typhus victims? It would seem that they wanted this person to die. That’s certainly fascinating but Munich isn’t close to Vinnitsa. I mean I’m always interested in learning new things but how this relates to the picture is a bit of a mystery. Other than the information on how it was found. It is clear that Jews from the Oblast were sent to Labour camps; those who had survived the typhus epidemic. This was from Shargorod at least. Jewish population figures are notoriously bad, especially due to the influx of refugees after Barbarossa and the fact that thousands fled to Russia. To perform calculations based on bad guestimates is asinine to say the least. The other difficulty is that it is not known if this image refers to the Oblast or to the city; the same is true of the population data. Dr Alexander Kruglov puts the Jewish losses at Vinnytsia at 90 000, all at the hand of the Einsatzgruppen or their collaborators. He mentions a specific example: "The Police Battalion 304 killed 2,200 Jews at Vinnytsia on 5 September 1941." USHMM mentions that 5000 Jews were killed at Vinnytsia. When you have thousands of Jews entering and thousand leaving, thousand dying of disease, it is akin to a conspiracy theory to blame it all on the Germans. This is especially true when the Jews themselves do not mention shooting. |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 20, 2022 2:02:34 GMT
If you take time to read the discourse on Vinnytsia the reports as below do not show mass murder. We’ve already discussed this previously. There is no relationship between the NKVD massacres and what is being described in the photo I posted. I mean you can post this again but it won’t change anything. Are you just randomly posting stuff you find on the internet? Why are they shooting a man over a mass grave filled with typhus victims? It would seem that they wanted this person to die. OK but why are they doing that in an open area surrounded by onlookers? If he has typhus, why would people gather around to watch this? To make sure the bullet killed him before the typhus did? Your blurb from the Jewish Virtual Library says Nikolayev which is in the Ukraine, not near Warsaw or Munich FFS. Do you need a map of Europe to help you figure out where stuff is? OK but would 30,000 have the opportunity to flee the area before the Germans arrived? I’m gonna say no. www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CH%5CO%5CHolocaust.htm |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Oct 20, 2022 2:31:17 GMT
It appears there were no German massacres in Vinnytsia. The atrocities are simply made up after the Soviets regained control to blame the thousands murdered by them onto the Reich. The image shows the execution or euthanasia of a single person with a small police pistol; he looks gaunt, quite sick. Typhus was an issue in the oblast as mentioned; many who survived disease were sent to labour camps.
The holocaust encyclopaedia is mere propaganda. That aside one cannot infer mass murder from an image nor is it in anyone's interest in this thread to discuss Ukraine in general. That aside, there were other NKVD massacres, but the one in Vinnytsia is described as the "Ukrainian Katyn". Only 9 thousand bodies were recovered, (9,439) but it is felt by locals that over 20 thousand were murdered. This is where many missing jews went, blaming the Germans, the reality being the Soviet Secret Police.
They tried to blame the Katyn atrocities on the Nazis and the same with missing people at Vinnytsia.
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 20, 2022 11:54:10 GMT
It appears there were no German massacres in Vinnytsia. It appears you are wrong on that. I know that’s the fall back position of those who love their Onkel Dolfie. Typhus is not universally fatal. Why are they murdering this man instead of treating him? Why are they surrounding him like this if he has an infectious disease? Until (in at least one location) proper precautions were taken to slow the disease. Why not? |
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Post by been_there on Oct 20, 2022 15:47:14 GMT
By accepting without any certainty that all the people in uniform are German, I believe you ARE doing that. There are one, maybe two members of the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police caught in the picture. That’s a nice catch by Nazgûl. But they are witnesses, at least at the point someone took this picture. The Ukrainians did participate and even acted on their own initiative. It’s possible this one (maybe two) participated in this action. It’s also very possible that there are more members of the Auxiliary Police present not included in this picture. But we don’t know based solely on this picture. We only know what’s happening in this moment. Then they are not ALL Germans, therefore to state they were is a racist deceit that portrays all Germans in uniform as mass-murderers. This is merely one example of this racist misrepresentation. Hoolywood WW2 films are full of it. Er... try this: YOU simply posted an anti-German, racist deception and saw nothing wrong in doing that. I suggest it only appears “odd” to someone who has a subliminal racist prejudice and is surprised to have it pointed out to them. It would explain why you felt the urge to post gloating schadenfrude posts regarding the news of further persecution and jail-time for ‘thought crimes’ of a ninety-four year old German woman. You are stating the obvious again. I assume it is because this upsets your mental equilibrium slightly. Which would explain why you defend yourself by claiming the suggestion you might harbour subliminal racist prejudices that are distorting your perception of historic evidence is “ irrelevant”. Ha ha! I am having no “extreme emotional reaction”. That looks like psychological projection to disguise your own feelings with having your own racist distorting lens pointed out to you. 🙂 |
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Post by been_there on Oct 20, 2022 16:20:54 GMT
If it is considered racist ‘anti-semitism’ to proffer credible and compelling evidence that Jews DID concoct a false narrative of attempted genocide of ALL Jews primarily using death-camp gas-chambers, then by the same criteria, it is racist ‘anti-Germanism’ to surmise that Germans did in fact mass-murder Jews purely for being Jews based upon extremely flimsy, inconclusive, possibly forged ‘evidence’. Except this is not the case. This is again a hyper emotional reaction that’s not based upon the history itself. That is exactly the case! And there is nothing “hyper emotional” about an argument based on pure logic. That you think otherwise suggests it is YOU who are getting “emotional”. It definitely IS considered ‘anti-semitic’ to show evidence that the holocaust narrative is a mythology created primarily by Jews. To believe otherwise is to be in denial. [Oh boy!] 🙄🤦♂️ During wars there always are “mass shooting and deaths”. Always!!! The problem holyhoax true-believers have is that they are looking at the Jewish experience quite removed from its proper historical context. L.e. during WW2 THERE WAS A WAR OCCURRING!!! Clearly not if it concerns possible racist prejudices distorting your understanding. It is totally on-topic as we are discussing the likelihood of the caption claiming this photo shows the execution of the ‘last Jew of Vinnitsa“ to be forged, i.e. added long afterwards to promote a particular narrative. This topic thread is about that photo. Naturally the possibility its caption is a later-added deceit is extremely relevant AND IMPORTANT. You appear to be unable to even consider the possibility of that. Which is why you believe there were no forgeries nor calculated accusatory deceptions. Therefore you deny that there ever were any Jewish psychological warfare units operating post-war. Which is denial of reality to buttress a cherished belief-system. SUMMARY: This photo might be of an execution of partisans. Someone interested in revising history to arrive at the most fair, unbiased, accurate version of it will be able to rationally and ‘unemotionally’ consider that possibility. A holyhoax mass-gassing-genocide true-believer with anti-German prejudices will not. 🙂 |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 20, 2022 16:37:19 GMT
There are one, maybe two members of the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police caught in the picture. That’s a nice catch by Nazgûl. But they are witnesses, at least at the point someone took this picture. The Ukrainians did participate and even acted on their own initiative. It’s possible this one (maybe two) participated in this action. It’s also very possible that there are more members of the Auxiliary Police present not included in this picture. But we don’t know based solely on this picture. We only know what’s happening in this moment. Then they are not ALL Germans, That’s a brilliant observation, been-there. One (possibly two) members of the crowd are not German. But the vast majority are, including the shooter. That’s not racist to point that out. Emotionally charged twaddle deleted. You need to stop taking it so personally. Who finds your weird obsession over a phrase bizarre. This is exactly why I am wondering why you are so fixated on this phrase. Further emotionally charged twaddle deleted. This isn’t good for your health, been-there. Yes, your opinion may be vitally important to you as it should be. However it isn’t important to me. I think my next thread will be a discussion of the Holocaust in the Ukraine. This has certainly opened new avenues to explore. |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 20, 2022 18:06:26 GMT
Except this is not the case. This is again a hyper emotional reaction that’s not based upon the history itself. That is exactly the case! But it isn’t. You do understand the history, right? Here, maybe this will help: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_HolocaustRead that and let me know if you are confused or have questions. Sure. But if it’s targeted, sustained and serve no real purpose then that is genocide. It’s quite one thing for random atrocities to occur, it’s quite another for it to be extended for approximately four years. NO!!!!! REALLY?  ? But even then there are rules, customs and international law to consider. We also need to consider the circumstances, who was targeted and how long it went on. Randomly shooting Jews as punishment or out of spite, petty harassment against the Jewish population….that isn’t genocide. Murdering entire communities down to the last child while maybe keeping a few alive as laborers to be worked to death or murdered later….that’s genocide. But that has nothing to do with shrunken heads. So if you want to discuss such things then please take it off this thread. OK, what proof do you have that the caption was added later? Because I need proof before speculating wildly. I explained why I think the picture is authentic. Because I’ve never seen any document or photo attributed to the Holocaust proven as forgeries. I’ve seen photos miscaptioned or falsely used as examples of German atrocities. But forgeries? Not really. But I am cautious which is why I check photos I haven’t seen before or who I think are miscaptioned. Same with documents. No, what I said was: “also want to point out that news about the above items came from prisoners and not from some type of psychological warfare initiative.” There were psychological warfare units, the Ritchie Boys for example. But news of heads and skins came from prisoners who either escaped or who were interrogated on-site. Oh, as stated, this was focused on Buchenwald. |
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Post by been_there on Oct 20, 2022 19:20:09 GMT
Ok. That you think the Jewish-patrolled and controlled wiki page on “the holyhoax’ should be taken seriously is proofv3nough you are incapable of fair, reaoned, unemotional discussion. As is this comment from you similar proof of that:No-one was asked to “speculate wildly”. So that is a true-believer strawman distortion. And obviously no-one needs proof BEFORE “consider the possibility of” a premise. If there was proof there would be no need to either consider or speculate. The choice would only be to accept the proof or be in denial. This reply from you demonstrates conclusively for me that because of your emotional attachment to a refuted but legally protected mythology, you are incapable of fair, rational discussion about this photo, events in Vinnitsa at the time, or anything related to your cultish Jew-genocide belief-system. Your approach is clearly influenced (distorted) by racist prejudices that you are in denial of. Plus you seem unable to even consider the possibility that your understanding needs revising or correcting, or that people have deliberately misinformed/lied/deceived to promulgate this anti-German atrocity legend. I bow out. |
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Oct 20, 2022 19:47:12 GMT
It appears you are wrong on that. Where is some real evidence of this apart from wiki. If this happened why is it not reported by witnesses who state Jews were sent to labour camps. The Germans would not cause public outrage in a town if it was they who committed the murders and not the NKVD. Off topic nonsense, which should be reported. You or I have no idea why he was executed. He could have been a partisan. You have no proof he was Jewish. Just down the road in a camp the Romanians culled a thousand people with typhus, who would have died anyhow. They were Jews. They opened up for more Jews a short time later. Your ignorance is appalling. Typhus is transmitted by the louse. It was eventually brought under control in this town. Stick to what you know about the photo and not mass generalizations. |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 21, 2022 14:43:03 GMT
Ok. That you think the Jewish-patrolled and controlled wiki page on “the holyhoax’ should be taken seriously is proofv3nough you are incapable of fair, reaoned, unemotional discussion. Nazgûl seems fine with it. If someone were to show proof then naturally I would. Aw. Now I’m sad. |
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Post by jeff8675309 on Oct 21, 2022 14:57:44 GMT
Where is some real evidence of this apart from wiki. If this happened why is it not reported by witnesses who state Jews were sent to labour camps. You should click the original link I provided. Looks like the primary murderers were Ukrainian Auxiliaries under the command of the Germans. But only one picture of an execution being done by this German. Why not? If the locals didn’t care or felt intimidated by Germans murdering Jews then why would there be open outrage? There’s also the matter of the uniforms the killers are wearing in that picture. You can depart the thread if a single sentence hurts your feelings. I put up with continuous off-topic garbage from been-there repeatedly on this thread. Don’t whine. It says that on the back of the picture. I have no particular reason to doubt it. You, OTOH, keep twisting back and forth. What part of “typhus is not universally fatal” that’s difficult to grasp? So then this backs up further that the man in the picture is Jewish. No kidding and dragging this man to a mass grave exposed these men to to the louse that carries the disease, FFS. You isolate sick people, you don’t drag them to a distant location to shoot them. |
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