Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 27, 2022 19:12:28 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie weasel dodges frantically but can't find a quote where I attribute the identification of the draglines to the witnesses. Turn and squirm as he may, Nessie can't find a quote from me claiming that the witnesses identified the draglines. Here is my complete quote.
I am simply using the American term for "digger", "excavator", "seilbagger" etc. I did NOT claim that Wiernik identified the "digger" as being an M&H dragline which is what Nessie is trying to weasel dodge.
Care to move on to Heinrich Gley and his description of how the crematory grate was constructed and how the Germans used the cadavers as fuel for the cremations?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 27, 2022 19:42:11 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I don't care if the dragline was built by M&H or Bucyrus-Erie, a dragline with ~35 foot boom can't, by itself and unaided by auxiliary equipment dig the pits described by the eyewitnesses.
I did NOT claim that the witnesses were the source for identifying the "digger/excavator" as being the M&H dragline. Nessie coined that lie and is now trying to weasel dodge and lie his way out of it. That I used the term "dragline" instead of "digger/excavator" is what Nessie is trying to use to obfuscate the fact that I have never claimed that the M&H dragline was identified by those witnesses. Nessie needs to admit his lie, offer an apology and move on to the corroboration of Gley's description of how the crematory grate was constructed and how cadavers were used to fuel the cremations.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 28, 2022 8:27:51 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie weasel dodges frantically but can't find a quote where I attribute the identification of the draglines to the witnesses. Turn and squirm as he may, Nessie can't find a quote from me claiming that the witnesses identified the draglines. Here is my complete quote. I am simply using the American term for "digger", "excavator", "seilbagger" etc. I did NOT claim that Wiernik identified the "digger" as being an M&H dragline which is what Nessie is trying to weasel dodge. Care to move on to Heinrich Gley and his description of how the crematory grate was constructed and how the Germans used the cadavers as fuel for the cremations? You did not use the word Wiernik used, which was excavator. He said "an excavator which could dig up 3,000 corpses at one time". You changed that to dragline. You attributed the identification of the dragline to Wiernik. You admit you preferred to use a different term and not the term he used.
You did that because the argument you use fails if you use the word excavator. It does not work to argue an excavator cannot dig a pit as described. Since that argument does not work, you lie about the witness actually said and change excavator to dragline and then you use the capabilities of the M&H dragline to back up your claim.
Stop lying that witnesses said anything other than the exact word they use to describe the machine that dug the pits.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 28, 2022 8:33:24 GMT
Nessie wrote: I don't care if the dragline was built by M&H or Bucyrus-Erie, a dragline with ~35 foot boom can't, by itself and unaided by auxiliary equipment dig the pits described by the eyewitnesses. I did NOT claim that the witnesses were the source for identifying the "digger/excavator" as being the M&H dragline. You just did exactly that. You have just said a dragline with a 35ft boom and as described by the witnesses, which means you are attributing that specific excavator to the witnesses. You have dodged explaining what you meant by the follow quotes; In this post you discuss Rosenberg, Wiernik and Rajchman rodoh.info/post/5960 and go into detail about what they said then conclude "the M&H dragline did NOT dig the graves". You are clearly insinuating they said that was the excavator used. In this post; rodoh.info/post/4582 you said " When Wiernik said that the dragline..." In the following posts you said; rodoh.info/post/1659 "The notion that the M&H draglines both excavated and stockpiled the ex from the graves as described by Wiernik..." rodoh.info/post/9947 "Wiernik claimed five graves and Rajchman said eleven graves. Nessie says that the graves were 100 meters long. None of those graves could have been excavated with the M&H mB dragline. rodoh.info/post/9588 "Rajchman, Wiernik and Rosenberg all claim that the dimensions of the graves were different, the number of graves were different and shared only the common feature of being impossible to dig with the M&H dragline." rodoh.info/post/6075 "Wiernik said that an excavator was used to "dig out the trenches". ...It is impossible for the M&H Mb dragline to dig such "trenches". You constantly refence the M&H dragline with the witness claims. You never use the actual witness descriptions, such as Wiernik stating excavator. You have been caught lying and there will be no other discussion until you admit to lying about what the witnesses said and you promise to only use the term, such as excavator, that the witness actually used.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 28, 2022 8:43:01 GMT
Here are more examples of you attributing the dragline to Wiernik rodoh.info/post/7271"I should amend my statement to a "credible witness" not some lying POS like Wiernik. Do you actually expect people to believe that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed? That he got his ears nailed to a wall? That the dragline could pick 3,000 cadavers at a time?" Wiernik did not say dragline, he said excavator. Here; rodoh.info/post/6041I said "Excavators uncovered the corpses which were collected by Sonderkommandos." You replied "You lie. Both Wiernik and Rajchman said that the dragline exhumed the bodies" Be honest, what did Weirnik and Rajchman actually say? Was it dragline as you claim, yes or no?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 28, 2022 10:02:50 GMT
(sigh) The witnesses called them "diggers" or "excavators". The Germans call them "seilbaggers" or just "'baggers". I call them "draglines". The Chinese probably have a name for them, too. Nessie doubles down on his lie that I attributed the identification of the M&H dragline (digger, excavator, seilbagger, 'bagger, dragline) to the witnesses. I attributed that identification to other sources but Nessie continues to lie that I said that the witnesses identified the diggers, excavators, etc. as M&H mA and mB draglines. It's just one of Nessie's sleazy little sly lies that he won't let go of.
No, neither did I uses the appellation of "seilbagger" or "'bagger". Neither have I ever claimed that the equipment in question was ever identified as an M&H mA or mB by the witnesses. As said, that identification came from other sources.
Of course I called the "digger/excavator" a dragline. That's the term regularly used by Americans to describe that type of equipment. I didn't call it a "seilbagger" or a "'bagger" or whatever the Chinese call a dragline. Nessie is still trying to weasel dodge the fact that I claimed the witnesses identified the dragline as a M&H mA or mB. So, YOU be honest, Nessie, and quote me declaring that the digger, bagger, whatever was identified by the witnesses. Of course you can't do that and thus all the smoke and horse frocky about what the dragline was called. That has nothing to do with how the equipment was identified.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 28, 2022 10:18:12 GMT
I think that Nessie's use of the how the draglines were identified is a smoke screen for him not having any corroborating witnesses to Gley's description of how the crematory grate was constructed and how the Germans used cadavers as the fuel for the cremations. Neither does he want to address his lie of omission in his statement that academics support the conventional narrative of the holyhoax. To recap: 1. The witnesses had nothing to do with how the dragline was identified as an M&H mB and mA.
2. There are no corroborating witnesses to Gley's description of how the cremation grate was constructed or how the Germans used cadavers as fuel for the cremations.
3. Nessie lied by omission by not stating that there are recognized academics who dispute the conventional holyhoax narrative.
Those are just the latest three of Nessie's sleazy little sly lies.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 28, 2022 10:19:48 GMT
(sigh) The witnesses called them "diggers" or "excavators". The Germans call them "seilbaggers" or just "'baggers". I call them "draglines". The Chinese probably have a name for them, too. Nessie doubles down on his lie that I attributed the identification of the M&H dragline (digger, excavator, seilbagger, 'bagger, dragline) to the witnesses. I attributed that identification to other sources but Nessie continues to lie that I said that the witnesses identified the diggers, excavators, etc. as M&H mA and mB draglines. It's just one of Nessie's sleazy little sly lies that he won't let go of. I have provided numerous examples of where you did not use the terms the witnesses used and instead you dishonestly substituted terms they did not use. You repeatedly used the terms dragline and M&H dragline, when the witness did not say that. Why did you not use Wiernik's own description? I have provided you with numerous quotes where you claim the witnesses have referred to the dragline or M&H dragline; " When Wiernik said that the dragline..." "The notion that the M&H draglines both excavated and stockpiled the ex from the graves as described by Wiernik..." "Wiernik claimed five graves and Rajchman said eleven graves. Nessie says that the graves were 100 meters long. None of those graves could have been excavated with the M&H mB dragline. "Rajchman, Wiernik and Rosenberg all claim that the dimensions of the graves were different, the number of graves were different and shared only the common feature of being impossible to dig with the M&H dragline." "Wiernik said that an excavator was used to "dig out the trenches". ...It is impossible for the M&H Mb dragline to dig such "trenches". "I should amend my statement to a "credible witness" not some lying POS like Wiernik. Do you actually expect people to believe that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed? That he got his ears nailed to a wall? That the dragline could pick 3,000 cadavers at a time?" "You lie. Both Wiernik and Rajchman said that the dragline exhumed the bodies" I just did, I even quoted you telling me I was lying and that both Wiernik and Rajchman said that the dragline was used. Your argument that an excavator could not excavate a pit as described by the witnesses, does not work. That is why you dishonestly substituted dragline and M&H dragline to the discussion about what the witnesses described. Back this exchange; I said "Excavators uncovered the corpses which were collected by Sonderkommandos." You replied "You lie. Both Wiernik and Rajchman said that the dragline exhumed the bodies" Be honest, what did Weirnik and Rajchman actually say? Was it dragline as you claim, yes or no?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 28, 2022 10:21:45 GMT
I think that Nessie's use of the how the draglines were identified is a smoke screen for him not having any corroborating witnesses to Gley's description of how the crematory grate was constructed and how the Germans used cadavers as the fuel for the cremations. Neither does he want to address his lie of omission in his statement that academics support the conventional narrative of the holyhoax. To recap: 1. The witnesses had nothing to do with how the dragline was identified as an M&H mB and mA. .....
If the witnesses had nothing to do with identifying the excavator used as an M&H dragline, why did this exchange happen?
I said "Excavators uncovered the corpses which were collected by Sonderkommandos."
You replied "You lie. Both Wiernik and Rajchman said that the dragline exhumed the bodies"
Be honest, what did Weirnik and Rajchman actually say? Was it dragline as you claim, yes or no?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 28, 2022 11:24:44 GMT
Nessie wrote:
There's nothing dishonest about calling a "digger" a dragline. Neither is it dishonest to call it a "seilbagger" or just a "'bagger". Those are just labels for the type of equipment supposedly used to dig the graves and exhume the cadavers at Treblinka. Neither do the names have anything to do with how the draglines were identified as being of Monk and Hambrock mfg.
Because Wiernik was an ignorant Jew and didn't know that the "digger" had a proper American name.
What the hell does that have to do with how the equipment was identified?
You just lied. None of the witnesses ever identified the equipment as being a Monk and Hambrock mA or mB. The identification came from other sources such as the photos of the machines and that those specific machines were used at Treblinka II by Arad, ARC, Colls et al.
Like hell it doesn't. That M&H mB could NOT have both dug and stockpiled 360 cubic meters of ex per meter of excavation without auxiliary equipment. Neither does that have anything to do with how the M&H mB was identified.
Both Wiernik and Rajchman described how the dragline (digger, excavator, seilbagger, 'bagger, whatever) exhumed bodies from the graves. Wiernik described how it lifted 3,000 cadavers at a time. Rajchman described how the operator would drop bodies on the sonderkommandos and how the sonderkommandos then carried the cadavers to the cremation grates. You lied about what Wiernik and Rajchman claimed. Whether Wiernik and Rajchman used the term "dragline" is irrelevant bullsh!t and you know it, Nessie.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 28, 2022 12:28:31 GMT
.... Both Wiernik and Rajchman described how the dragline (digger, excavator, seilbagger, 'bagger, whatever) exhumed bodies from the graves. Wiernik described how it lifted 3,000 cadavers at a time. Rajchman described how the operator would drop bodies on the sonderkommandos and how the sonderkommandos then carried the cadavers to the cremation grates. You lied about what Wiernik and Rajchman claimed. Whether Wiernik and Rajchman used the term "dragline" is irrelevant bullsh!t and you know it, Nessie. You are doing it again. You are claiming witnesses described how a dragline exhumed bodies, when they did not use that term. You called me a liar for saying "Excavators uncovered the corpses..." and then claimed "Both Wiernik and Rajchman said that the dragline exhumed the bodies". That is a lie. Until you admit that the witnesses said excavators, not dragline and that you lied, not me, there is no point in further discussion between us. This is just one example of how you have repeatedly and pathologically lied about witnesses and I have said, to sustain your beliefs.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 28, 2022 12:30:22 GMT
... Because Wiernik was an ignorant Jew and didn't know that the "digger" had a proper American name. Why would a Polish Jew who did not speak English, use an American - English term? He used the term excavator and you have repeatedly lied that he used other terms. Stop lying.
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Post by been_there on Sept 28, 2022 15:07:39 GMT
(sigh) The witnesses called them "diggers" or "excavators". The Germans call them "seilbaggers" or just "'baggers". I call them "draglines". The Chinese probably have a name for them, too. Nessie doubles down on his lie that I attributed the identification of the M&H dragline (digger, excavator, seilbagger, 'bagger, dragline) to the witnesses. I attributed that identification to other sources but Nessie continues to lie that I said that the witnesses identified the diggers, excavators, etc. as M&H mA and mB draglines. It's just one of Nessie's sleazy little sly lies that he won't let go of. No, neither did I uses the appellation of "seilbagger" or "'bagger". Neither have I ever claimed that the equipment in question was ever identified as an M&H mA or mB by the witnesses. As said, that identification came from other sources. Of course I called the "digger/excavator" a dragline. That's the term regularly used by Americans to describe that type of equipment. I didn't call it a "seilbagger" or a "'bagger" or whatever the Chinese call a dragline. Nessie is still trying to weasel dodge the fact that I claimed the witnesses identified the dragline as a M&H mA or mB. So, YOU be honest, Nessie, and quote me declaring that the digger, bagger, whatever was identified by the witnesses. Of course you can't do that and thus all the smoke and horse frocky about what the dragline was called. That has nothing to do with how the equipment was identified. This proves that Nessie is far below average IQ. It proves that you canโt get her/him to understand the extreeeeemely simple fact that use of different linguistic words for the exact same thing is not โlyingโ. It would be like you using the word โwaterโ, when โlie-witnessesโ might have used the words โeauโ, โwasserโ, โpanniโ, โaquaโ or H2O. That also would not be a โlieโ. But regretably, such simple logic is lost on this person.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 28, 2022 15:46:36 GMT
(sigh) The witnesses called them "diggers" or "excavators". The Germans call them "seilbaggers" or just "'baggers". I call them "draglines". The Chinese probably have a name for them, too. Nessie doubles down on his lie that I attributed the identification of the M&H dragline (digger, excavator, seilbagger, 'bagger, dragline) to the witnesses. I attributed that identification to other sources but Nessie continues to lie that I said that the witnesses identified the diggers, excavators, etc. as M&H mA and mB draglines. It's just one of Nessie's sleazy little sly lies that he won't let go of. No, neither did I uses the appellation of "seilbagger" or "'bagger". Neither have I ever claimed that the equipment in question was ever identified as an M&H mA or mB by the witnesses. As said, that identification came from other sources. Of course I called the "digger/excavator" a dragline. That's the term regularly used by Americans to describe that type of equipment. I didn't call it a "seilbagger" or a "'bagger" or whatever the Chinese call a dragline. Nessie is still trying to weasel dodge the fact that I claimed the witnesses identified the dragline as a M&H mA or mB. So, YOU be honest, Nessie, and quote me declaring that the digger, bagger, whatever was identified by the witnesses. Of course you can't do that and thus all the smoke and horse frocky about what the dragline was called. That has nothing to do with how the equipment was identified. This proves that Nessie is far below average IQ. It proves that you canโt get her/him to understand the extreeeeemely simple fact that use of different linguistic words for the exact same thing is not โlyingโ. It would be like you using the word โwaterโ, when โlie-witnessesโ might have used the words โeauโ, โwasserโ, โpanniโ, โaquaโ or H2O. That also would not be a โlieโ. But regretably, such simple logic is lost on this person. False analogy. Water is water and "eau", "wasser" etc all mean the same thing. Excavators vary in what they can do and there are different terms for the many different earth moving machines that the general term excavator is used for. Excavator can refer to lots of different things, water refers to just one thing.
Turnagain thought he had found a flaw in the witness evidence, as he thought the witnesses were making claims about the M&H dragline, because various secondary sources thought that was the excavator used. He then made multiple false claims that the witnesses had been referring to that M&H dragline, when they had not. Then there was this exchange, where I said
"Excavators uncovered the corpses which were collected by Sonderkommandos."
Turnagain replied;
"You lie. Both Wiernik and Rajchman said that the dragline exhumed the bodies"
That is not true. They did not say draglines. Turnagain's argument that draglines could not do what the witnesses claim, falls apart if he is forced to use the terms the witnesses used, such as excavator. No one rational would argue that an excavator cannot dig pits and exhume bodies, Turnagain has to use a term the witnesses do not use.
It is you and him who are of limited IQ, which is why neither of you understand my point and you in particular, have yet again used a fallacious argument, so proving your limited understanding.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 28, 2022 17:26:00 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I don't give a sh!t what you want to call the dragline. You can call it a "digger" or a "hole maker" or a "super-duper dirt scooper" but I call such equipment a dragline. It all references the same piece of equipment and you know it, Nessie.
You DID lie when you claimed that the dragline only uncovered the cadavers and the sonderkommandos exhumed them. Wiernik claimed that the dragline could exhume up to 3,000 cadavers at a time. Rajchman specifically said that the dragline exhumed the cadavers and the sonderkommandos carried them to the cremation grates. Here is what Wiernik said about the exhumations. From, "A Year in Treblinka":
Wiernik called the dragline both a "machine" and an "excavator". In American usage, the "machine" is called a dragline. Whatever the "machine" was called that's just your excuse for not discussing that I haven't ever claimed that the witnesses identified the "machine" as an M&H dragline.
Wiernik called it both a "machine" and an "excavator". In Polish a dragline is called a "nici asekuracyjne". I can't even pronounce that. Why would I, an American, refer to the "machine" as a "nici asekuracyjne"? You lied, you were called on the lie and now you're trying to lie your way out of it.
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