Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 25, 2022 19:23:33 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Here is Gley's quote from the "Holocaust Research Project":
Please explain which other witnesses testify that rails were placed on large rocks, cross-meshed with lighter rails and up to 200 cadavers were placed on the grate. Gley testified that initially wood was placed under the grate but, "...the corpses later served as the only fuel". Which other witnesses corroborated Gley's account of how the grate was constructed and how the cadavers were cremated with no fuel.
LMAO! Suuuuuure, the preferred Jews were shown kindness, given comfort and food and the rest of the poor sods got the snot beaten out of them on a daily basis. That's a stretch even for a Nessieism.
Wiernik called the excavator a "digger". I have explicitly said that "dragline" is the American term for such equipment and I specifically referenced Wiernik's use of the term "digger" as being a dragline. Why are you pretending to claim that I lied about Wiernik's claim that a digger/dragline was used to allegedly dig graves at Treblinka?
In your original post did you mention that there was disagreement between academics about the acceptance of the conventional narrative of the holyhoax? Yes or no?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 26, 2022 7:26:00 GMT
Nessie wrote: Here is Gley's quote from the "Holocaust Research Project": Please explain which other witnesses testify that rails were placed on large rocks, cross-meshed with lighter rails and up to 200 cadavers were placed on the grate. Gley testified that initially wood was placed under the grate but, "...the corpses later served as the only fuel". Which other witnesses corroborated Gley's account of how the grate was constructed and how the cadavers were cremated with no fuel. First you miss out part of what Gley said, then you quote him saying it, then you deny he said it. Why are you doing that? You asked for other witnesses, I linked to them and then you miss out the link and ask again. Why are you doing that? The preferred Jews were given starvation rations and were treated as slaves. You lied that he said dragline, to support your argument a dragline could not do exactly what the witnesses said it did. No. There are some academics who have disagreed with the Holocaust narrative. That is a different point from the one I was making, which is the evidence for gassings has been examined by multiple academics over the decades and it has stood as the only evidenced narrative. The other academics who have disagreed have all failed to evidence what did happen.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 26, 2022 8:24:36 GMT
Nessie wrote: LOL! IOW you don't have any other witnesses who corroborate how Gley described the grate and the cremations. Lots of turning, squirming and weasel dodging but no answer. Gee, Nessie, when ya' gonna' tell us the name and quote the corroborating witness to Gley's ridiculous tripe? Are you going to go for an "I already done that"? Really? Do you have anything to back up that claim? The witness who said that the Germans made him comfortable and gave him something to eat made no mention of the Germans trying to starve him. As far as the Jews being treated as slaves, you are apparently unaware that prisoners were compensated for their work in the various concentration camps. They were paid in special camp money. Go here for info and photos: wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/ccmoney.htmlNessie attempts to cover his accusation that I lied with a lie. I was very explicit about why I used the term "dragline" rather than "digger". Just as I use the term "blade" for a road grader. IOW, you made no mention of any academics dissenting from the conventional holyhoax narrative. Your weasel dodge failed, Nessie.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 26, 2022 8:43:39 GMT
Nessie wrote: LOL! IOW you don't have any other witnesses who corroborate how Gley described the grate and the cremations. Lots of turning, squirming and weasel dodging but no answer. Gee, Nessie, when ya' gonna' tell us the name and quote the corroborating witness to Gley's ridiculous tripe? Are you going to go for an "I already done that"? Why did you miss out Gley's reference to the use of fuel? Why did you then quote him speaking about the fuel used and then claim he said they were cremated with no fuel? Why are you denying that I linked you to multiple witnesses speaking about the pyres and how their descriptions match what Gley described? Evidence the Jews working at the AR camps were paid and treated well. Evidence that every camp operated in exactly the same way and all Jewish prisoners were treated equally. You have repeatedly lied that witnesses describe the M&B dragline and then claimed it could not do what the witnesses claimed, therefore they all lied. Despite the attempts of a few academics, a number of whom are not historians, to dispute the evidence of gassings, that evidence stands as the only evidence as to what happened inside the AR camps. Until someone finds evidence that something else happened, then it is rational to accept the gassings as what happened.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 26, 2022 9:41:26 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I quoted Gley directly from your link. He said that wood was first placed under the grate but later on only the cadavers were used as fuel for the cremations. Why are you questioning me about what Gley stated?
That dog don't hunt, Nessie. Specifically, which witness corroborates Gley's description of how the pyre was constructed and that cadavers were cremated with no fuel? Name and quote the corroborating witness.
I doubt if Jews in transit were paid since they weren't providing any labor service to the Germans. As far as how they were treated, evidence that they were mistreated. Your known liars claim mistreatment while the Spielberg interviewees make no mention of mistreatment.
As far as how the Jews were treated and paid, read the article in the link.
I have never said that the witnesses described the M&H draglines. Arad, ARC, Colls et al. claimed that the M&H draglines were used to dig the graves. There are photos of the M&H draglines that are supposedly digging graves at Treblinka II. Witnesses such as Wiernik obviously didn't know the make and model of the draglines and simply referred to them as "diggers" or "excavators". Your claim that I said that Wiernik described the make and model of the dragline is a lie. A big, fat, juicy lie, Nessie.
IOW, you made no mention of dissenting opinions in your original post. Your inference was that all academics accepted the conventional narrative of the holyhoax. You lied by omission, Nessie and you got called on it. Now you're trying to backpedal.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 26, 2022 14:31:08 GMT
Nessie wrote: I quoted Gley directly from your link. He said that wood was first placed under the grate but later on only the cadavers were used as fuel for the cremations. Why are you questioning me about what Gley stated? Typically for you, to sustain your desired beliefs, you misrepresent the witnesses to make it easier for you to justify to yourself to disbelieve them. You missed out that Gley said that wood was used in the pyres to sustain your belief that somehow, the Nazis set fire to the bodies, using no fuel. When you are forced into admitting Gley mentions fuel, you then switch to your bizarre interpretation that only the first time a pyre was set alight, was wood used and thereafter, they missed out the wood and just set the bodies on fire. The more rational interpretation, an interpretation that is backed by multiple witnesses, is that all the pyres were started with wood, which then set the bodies on fire, which them burned. It is not my fault you cannot be bothered reading links; www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/arperpsspeak.htmlthat you have been linked to on numerous previous occasions. How are you unable to read one page from a website? Here is Matthes; "The cremation took place in such a way that railway lines and concrete blocks were placed together. The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with petrol. In that way not only the newly accumulated corpses were cremated, but also those taken out from the graves. Here is Stangl; "I know that in the beginning in Treblinka they used rails from the trolley to build the cremation grill. But it turned out that these were too weak and bent in the heat. They were replaced with real railroad rails." You have already made it clear that whenever there is a claim Jews were mistreated, you think that is a lie and every time something is said that does not reference mistreatment, you will believe it. You have only seen highly edited parts of the interviewee statements, from Hunt's video, so how do you know they never spoke of mistreatment? In this post you discuss Rosenberg, Wiernik and Rajchman rodoh.info/post/5960and go into detail about what they said then conclude "the M&H dragline did NOT dig the graves". You are clearly insinuating they said that was the excavator used. In this post; rodoh.info/post/4582you said " When Wiernik said that the dragline..." In the following posts you said; rodoh.info/post/1659"The notion that the M&H draglines both excavated and stockpiled the ex from the graves as described by Wiernik..." rodoh.info/post/9947"Wiernik claimed five graves and Rajchman said eleven graves. Nessie says that the graves were 100 meters long. None of those graves could have been excavated with the M&H mB dragline. rodoh.info/post/9588"Rajchman, Wiernik and Rosenberg all claim that the dimensions of the graves were different, the number of graves were different and shared only the common feature of being impossible to dig with the M&H dragline." rodoh.info/post/6075"Wiernik said that an excavator was used to "dig out the trenches". ...It is impossible for the M&H Mb dragline to dig such "trenches". There are many more examples when I searched your posts for references to "Wiernik" and "dragline". You are the liar. Stop lying. I did not make that inference, you are lyign again. Unless you stop lying, your posting privileges in this part of the forum will be curtailed. You have been warned.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 26, 2022 21:55:45 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Here is the relevant portion of Gley's statement:
According to Gley's testimony, the Germans first used wood to fuel the cremations. Later in the cremation operation they used only the corpses for fuel. Why are you saying that he didn't say that? I misrepresent nothing. Yes, the Germans initially used wood to fuel the cremations. They later used only the cadavers as the fuel.
Matthes does NOT corroborate Gley's claim that rails were placed on large rocks. He specifically states that concrete blocks were used. Neither does Stangl corroborate Gley's description of how the pyre was constructed. Stangl specifically excludes the use of light rails as cross-meshing for the heavier rails that were laid on rocks.
If you have claims of mistreatment from witnesses other than your known liars then let's see it.
Nessie has no quote from me stating that any of the witnesses described the dragline as a M&H mB or mA. He shrieks about the size of the graves, why the M&H draglines didn't have such capabilities and tries to weasel dodge away from the fact that I have never claimed the witnesses described the draglines as being mfg. by M&H. The identification of the draglines comes from other sources, not the alleged witnesses. Nessie is lying through his teeth.
In his original post did Nessie say anything about academics who dissented from the conventional narrative of the holyhoax? Nope, he damn sure didn't.
Nessie has no witness who corroborates Heinrich Gley's description of the cremation grate and can't explain why Gley said that cadavers were cremated with no external fuel. Neither can he find a quote from me stating that the alleged witnesses described the draglines (digger, excavator, seilbagger, 'bagger, clamshell) as being a M&H mB or mA. Did Nessie get caught in his lie of omission? Yep, he damn sure did.
It looks like Nessie has reached peak frustration over such failures and is now resorting to censorship to prevent any further embarrassment to his pie in the sky claims for the holyhoax. Do like the Jews do, Nessie. If you can't refute it make it illegal.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 27, 2022 8:15:27 GMT
...Nessie has no quote from me stating that any of the witnesses described the dragline as a M&H mB or mA.... Liar. Here are the quotes again; In this post you discuss Rosenberg, Wiernik and Rajchman rodoh.info/post/5960 and go into detail about what they said then conclude "the M&H dragline did NOT dig the graves". You are clearly insinuating they said that was the excavator used. In this post; rodoh.info/post/4582 you said " When Wiernik said that the dragline..." In the following posts you said; rodoh.info/post/1659 "The notion that the M&H draglines both excavated and stockpiled the ex from the graves as described by Wiernik..." rodoh.info/post/9947 "Wiernik claimed five graves and Rajchman said eleven graves. Nessie says that the graves were 100 meters long. None of those graves could have been excavated with the M&H mB dragline. rodoh.info/post/9588 "Rajchman, Wiernik and Rosenberg all claim that the dimensions of the graves were different, the number of graves were different and shared only the common feature of being impossible to dig with the M&H dragline." rodoh.info/post/6075 "Wiernik said that an excavator was used to "dig out the trenches". ...It is impossible for the M&H Mb dragline to dig such "trenches". You are claiming the witnesses said a dragline was used to dig the graves, that is impossible for a dragline to do, therefore the witnesses lied. That is a lie, because at no time has a witness said it was a dragline, or given the make of the excavator.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 27, 2022 8:33:01 GMT
.... It looks like Nessie has reached peak frustration over such failures and is now resorting to censorship to prevent any further embarrassment to his pie in the sky claims for the holyhoax. Do like the Jews do, Nessie. If you can't refute it make it illegal. There is no censorship here, merely moderation to the level Scott has set and less than many others here, who remove comments that are on topic, but which do not suit their claims. I only remove abusive and off topic posts. Your last post is still here, I have merely edited it down (as you do when relying to me) to concentrate on one part of it. My frustration is with your constant lying. It is ironic in a thread where you claim that witnesses have lied, that you constantly lie. You lie about what the witnesses said and you lie about what I have said. You do that because you are unable to argue against what has been said, so you create a false version of what has been said and argue against it. It is called the strawman logical fallacy. For example, you cannot argue against witnesses who say the Nazis dug large pits using excavators. If you lie that the witnesses described a very specific excavator, the M&H dragline, then you can argue the pits they describe could not be dug by that excavator. Your argument is based on a lie. The strawman is your claim that the witnesses were referring to the M&H dragline. You cannot argue that the witnesses were lying, because an excavator cannot excavate a large pit, because digging large pits is a job for an excavator. You also fail to acknowledge that the witnesses are merely estimating size, so, when you claim that an M&H dragline cannot dig a pit the size described, that does not therefore mean no pits. It means the witnesses overestimated the size of the pits. There was someone before you, called Werd, who used to constantly lie. I eventually did to him what I will now do to you. I challenged every single lie to force him to acknowledge it. He could not cope and had to abandon, because he realised he could not continue in the debate without lying. That is not censorship or making anything illegal. It is merely calling out liars for being liars. If you want to discuss the witness claims about graves, you will only reference excavators were used, not draglines or M&H draglines, because they did not say draglines or M&H draglines were used.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 27, 2022 8:52:27 GMT
Nessie wrote:
LOL! Now show where I specifically said that Wiernik, Rajchman et al. identified the dragline as being a M&H mB or mA. You can't. The draglines were identified from other sources. Whether you're that confused or going for a sly lie doesn't make any difference. I never attributed the identification of the draglines to the alleged witnesses.
That is a true statement and has absolutely nothing to do with how the draglines were identified.
I didn't say that Wiernik called the excavator an M&H dragline. I did identify the "excavator" as being an M&H dragline. It's identification comes from photos, Arad, Arc, Colls et al. Are you saying that the excavator Wiernik referenced wasn't an M&H?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 27, 2022 9:07:13 GMT
Nessie wrote: OK, let's stick to this claim for now. Quote me declaring that the Germans were incapable of digging a hole in the ground. No weasel dodging about "insinuations" or whatever, just my statement that the Germans couldn't dig a hole. Just my quote.
Welp, it looks as though Nessie has cut and run, at least for now. No matter, my question will remain if and when he decides to come back.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 27, 2022 11:55:57 GMT
Nessie wrote: LOL! Now show where I specifically said that Wiernik, Rajchman et al. identified the dragline as being a M&H mB or mA. You can't. The draglines were identified from other sources. Whether you're that confused or going for a sly lie doesn't make any difference. I never attributed the identification of the draglines to the alleged witnesses. Yes you did, repeatedly. I have quoted just some of the times you specifically referenced the witnesses with the M&H dragline or just dragline. You are obviously insulating that they claimed that specific dragline was used, when none of them did. Your argument has been that since witnesses described the M&H dragline as digging graves of a certain size, with the stockpile next to the graves, and that is not possible, therefore the witnesses all lied. I checked that argument and found it was secondary sources that attributed the digging of the graves to the M&H dragline and not the witnesses. You made a false claim and when I pointed that out to you, you continued to suggest that witnesses described the M&H dragline, which since you now knew that was not true, meant you were knowingly lying. If you want to be considered honest with your argument, you should drop all references to the M&H dragline when discussing the witnesses, as no witness mentioned an M&H dragline. Your argument is with Arad, ARC etc. You do not want to do that because the argument of no excavator/bagger/digger can dig a grave as described by the witnesses is clearly not a credible argument. You have to falsely introduce the M&H dragline to the witnesses, to make your argument appear to be credible.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 27, 2022 12:00:36 GMT
Nessie wrote: OK, let's stick to this claim for now. Quote me declaring that the Germans were incapable of digging a hole in the ground. No weasel dodging about "insinuations" or whatever, just my statement that the Germans couldn't dig a hole. Just my quote.
Welp, it looks as though Nessie has cut and run, at least for now. No matter, my question will remain if and when he decides to come back.
Your argument has been that the M&H dragline cannot dig a pit as described by the witnesses. That argument fails because no witness referenced the M&H dragline and because, as you admit, the Germans could use excavators to dig large pits.
It is you who is the liar, by repeatedly referencing the M&H dragline to the witnesses, when, as you admit, it was Arad, ARC etc who referenced it, not the witnesses.
The witnesses said excavator or bagger or digger, which does not work with your argument, because a witnesses stating an excavator dug the pits is not a witness who is lying.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 27, 2022 15:13:57 GMT
Nessie wrote:
So, your claim that I attributed the identification of the M&H draglines to Wiernik and other witnesses is a lie. A big, fat, juicy lie. Your attempt to redirect the discussion away from the fact that I did NOT claim that the witnesses identified the draglines as being of M&H mfg. is a bust and your lie is exposed.
Neither can any other dragline with a ~35 foot boom dig the pits as described by the witnesses. The draglines, "diggers", "excavators" or whatever you want to call them were identified as being of M&H mfg. and with no auxiliary equipment could NOT have accomplished such excavations.
You lied when you claim that I attributed the identification of the draglines to the witnesses. That the draglines used to excavate the graves at Treblinka is part of the conventional narrative. What the witnesses called them is irrelevant since that equipment has been identified by other sources. Your much vaunted historians, chroniclers and archaeologists along with the photo record all agree that the equipment used to excavate the Treblinka graves was of M&H (Monk & Hambrock) mfg.
IOW, you admit that I did NOT attribute the identification of the draglines to the witnesses. In American slang, that's known as stepping on your own dick, Nessie.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 27, 2022 18:20:20 GMT
Nessie wrote: So, your claim that I attributed the identification of the M&H draglines to Wiernik and other witnesses is a lie. A big, fat, juicy lie. Your attempt to redirect the discussion away from the fact that I did NOT claim that the witnesses identified the draglines as being of M&H mfg. is a bust and your lie is exposed. You said; rodoh.info/post/4582 "When Wiernik said that the dragline..." rodoh.info/post/1659"The notion that the M&H draglines both excavated and stockpiled the ex from the graves as described by Wiernik..." Now you are lying that you did not attribute identification of the M&H dragline to Wiernik! There is no end to your pathological lying. Are you now claiming there was no excavator available to the Nazis that was capable of digging pits the size described? Go through the quotes I gave you and explain how you are not attributing the M&H dragline as the excavator the witnesses were talking about. "Rajchman, Wiernik and Rosenberg all claim that the dimensions of the graves were different, the number of graves were different and shared only the common feature of being impossible to dig with the M&H dragline." "Wiernik said that an excavator was used to "dig out the trenches". ...It is impossible for the M&H Mb dragline to dig such "trenches". "Wiernik claimed five graves and Rajchman said eleven graves. Nessie says that the graves were 100 meters long. None of those graves could have been excavated with the M&H mB dragline." You are lying, I have been quoting you claiming the witness identified the M&H dragline. If you were honest, you would have used the terms the witnesses used and not constantly referred to the M&H dragline.
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