Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 22, 2022 12:31:05 GMT
Nazgul, you are trying to move maps, drawn by people who were at the AR camp TII, the camp on the spur line to TI, to Malkinia. The maps shown here; www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.htmlare not maps of a camp at Malkinia.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 22, 2022 12:49:54 GMT
Nazgul, you are trying to move maps, drawn by people who were at the AR camp TII, the camp on the spur line to TI, to Malkinia. The maps shown here; www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/maps.htmlare not maps of a camp at Malkinia. I have given the information for the readers to decide for themselves to compare and contrast.
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 22, 2022 18:35:20 GMT
Nazgul wrote:
Rudolf identified "A" camp in the Malkinia area. That camp has no railroad so would seem illogical for a transit camp. The camp about a mile from Malkinia near the loop would seem a much better location for the Treblinka transit camp. The fahrplanaordnunt specifically calls it "Treblinka" and that it was accessible by rail.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 22, 2022 21:42:08 GMT
Nazgul wrote: Rudolf identified "A" camp in the Malkinia area. That camp has no railroad so would seem illogical for a transit camp. The camp about a mile from Malkinia near the loop would seem a much better location for the Treblinka transit camp. The fahrplanaordnunt specifically calls it "Treblinka" and that it was accessible by rail. It is clear there was a transit camp and a pow camp; some have thought there was a single camp. However that said this camp is only 400 yards from the railway after just checking on google earth. The Malkinia loop is still of interest.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 27, 2022 1:58:15 GMT
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Sept 27, 2022 8:00:02 GMT
Now show how many of those camps were open at the end of 1944 and what their Jewish populations were. If lots were open and the total Jewish population was in the millions, you have proved the mass gassing claims are fake. If most had closed down and the total Jewish population was in the hundreds of thousands, then the mass gassing claims stand.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 27, 2022 8:32:46 GMT
Now show how many of those camps were open at the end of 1944 and what their Jewish populations were. If lots were open and the total Jewish population was in the millions, you have proved the mass gassing claims are fake. If most had closed down and the total Jewish population was in the hundreds of thousands, then the mass gassing claims stand. Nessie this information has nothing to do with alleged mass gassing but forced labour camps for jews. It was mentioned this is work in progress and in my opinion a huge advance on what was known even a year ago. Interested readers are invited to compare and contrast the Judenlagers from 1942 (before the war turned) to 1944 when there was retreat. The populations are unknown at this stage at least. 1942 1944 then finally 1945
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Oct 5, 2022 4:42:10 GMT
Updated picture of the Malkinia loop taken April 16 1944 by Luftwaffe. The image was originally a negative, so this has been inverted to give a positive.
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Post by Callahan on Nov 28, 2022 11:10:46 GMT
Regarding the labor camps on the line toward Treblinka (which would include Malkinia among many others, if I understand correctly), a few questions come to mind: - Were any of these camps likely (or more likely than the others) to receive significant numbers of children?
- What is supposed to be the most common fate of those transported to any of these camps along the Treblinka line? Death by disease? Deported to Soviet interior? What is the best guess, at this point? (this may seem like a naive question but I really just want to ensure I understand this hypothesis and how it impacts the overall understanding of possible outcomes)
- Isn't it still compatible with this theory that great numbers were sent East via Treblinka? Is a "hybrid-theory" perhaps the most likely (i.e. Treblinka as both a transit camp to the East and as final destination along the line of Zwangsarbeitslager)?
I'll also just add that I think this theory can very well explain why T-4 staff may have been reassigned to AR camps. If the work-abled had mostly off-boarded the train by the time it arrived at Treblinka, many of those who remained might require either medical treatment or euthanasia, perhaps before being sent further east, in some cases.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Nov 28, 2022 18:02:21 GMT
Regarding the labor camps on the line toward Treblinka (which would include Malkinia among many others, if I understand correctly), a few questions come to mind: - Were any of these camps likely (or more likely than the others) to receive significant numbers of children?
- What is supposed to be the most common fate of those transported to any of these camps along the Treblinka line? Death by disease? Deported to Soviet interior? What is the best guess, at this point? (this may seem like a naive question but I really just want to ensure I understand this hypothesis and how it impacts the overall understanding of possible outcomes)
- Isn't it still compatible with this theory that great numbers were sent East via Treblinka? Is a "hybrid-theory" perhaps the most likely (i.e. Treblinka as both a transit camp to the East and as final destination along the line of Zwangsarbeitslager)?
I'll also just add that I think this theory can very well explain why T-4 staff may have been reassigned to AR camps. If the work-abled had mostly off-boarded the train by the time it arrived at Treblinka, many of those who remained might require either medical treatment or euthanasia, perhaps before being sent further east, in some cases. There is evidence that Zwangarbeitslager catered for children; Peter Lantos a Jewish Hungarian child worked in an Austrian camp with his parents for some time as well as other labour camps. Typhus was a commonality in all camps. From the Sobibor witness statements people were sent where ever labour was needed. The Jewish workforce was in transit much of the time. The first transport from Warsaw saw 3 thousand youths sent to Bobruysk SS camp; after some time these youths were sent back to the General Government area to other labour camps. I have the impression that the current TII was just the Judenlager for TI, the transit camp being at Malkinia, the other at Siedlce. Malkinia has been mentioned by witnesses as a Transit facility while at Siedlce there were multiple facilities; all camps can act as transit camps. Turnagain mentioned Jews transiting from TII (about 12 thousand). There are reports of trainloads of half dead people arriving at various places which would need euthanasia staff; this aligns with 14f13, which affected everyone not just Jews. It is unlikely that those unfit for heavy duties would be sent further east.
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Post by Callahan on Nov 28, 2022 22:02:58 GMT
There is evidence that Zwangarbeitslager catered for children; Peter Lantos a Jewish Hungarian child worked in an Austrian camp with his parents for some time as well as other labour camps. Typhus was a commonality in all camps. From the Sobibor witness statements people were sent where ever labour was needed. The Jewish workforce was in transit much of the time. The first transport from Warsaw saw 3 thousand youths sent to Bobruysk SS camp; after some time these youths were sent back to the General Government area to other labour camps. I have the impression that the current TII was just the Judenlager for TI, the transit camp being at Malkinia, the other at Siedlce. Malkinia has been mentioned by witnesses as a Transit facility while at Siedlce there were multiple facilities; all camps can act as transit camps. Turnagain mentioned Jews transiting from TII (about 12 thousand). There are reports of trainloads of half dead people arriving at various places which would need euthanasia staff; this aligns with 14f13, which affected everyone not just Jews. It is unlikely that those unfit for heavy duties would be sent further east. If we are saying that hundreds of thousands of additional children were not sent East (I focus on children because this demographic should only have been 'exterminated'), shouldn't we have seen evidence of a higher number of child survivors post-war? I think the best estimate is that up to 180,000 Jewish children were discovered either in hiding or liberated from camps at the end of the war, per "official" reports (this doesn't include those who left beforehand, such as on "Kindertransports" or otherwise). Would it be possible or even likely that not all work-abled passengers would have been off-boarded prior to arrival at T-2? I.e. perhaps there was some sorting of those who remained that were or were not healthy enough to make the journey further East? I do get the sense you think it is better to rule out any deportations further east altogether, so I am just trying to wrap my head around why a "hybrid" model would not be just as likely. I know the focus here is on Treblinka / Malkinia and the Zwangsarbetislagers along the way but how does this whole concept relate to the other AR camps (Sobibor, Belzec)? I'm a bit of a noob, if you can't tell, so just trying to see how this all fits together. Lastly, have you considered putting together a detailed article where you summarize this thesis? Or do you know of anyone else who has done so? I think this is an extremely valuable addition to the discussion surrounding AR camps. I'm learning a lot from reading these relevant threads but I think there are many who would be interested in this, so it would make sense to have it all organized in one place.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Nov 29, 2022 0:06:48 GMT
I know the focus here is on Treblinka / Malkinia and the Zwangsarbetislagers along the way but how does this whole concept relate to the other AR camps (Sobibor, Belzec)? I'm a bit of a noob, if you can't tell, so just trying to see how this all fits together. Lastly, have you considered putting together a detailed article where you summarize this thesis? Or do you know of anyone else who has done so? I think this is an extremely valuable addition to the discussion surrounding AR camps. I'm learning a lot from reading these relevant threads but I think there are many who would be interested in this, so it would make sense to have it all organized in one place. New thoughts are welcome. This thread started as a response to Nessie using die Fahrplananordnung as evidence of Treblinka transports; the implication being that all who boarded at point A departed at Treblinka. Deutschland-ein-denkmal.de started a project listing Zwangarbeitslager und Konzentrationslager in Austria, Poland and the Russian East. As you noticed major labour camps appear en-route to Treblinka. Their list is not exhaustive with research currently underway. They incidentally have little to do with revisionism. In the old forum I also noticed a high correlation between "Customs Protection" (Zollgrenzschutz) and the AR camps. There was a customs office at Malkinia, Wlodawa near Sobibor and one at Belzec proper. Here is a photo of a customs officer at Sobibor. Zollgrenzschutz officer sitting far right The narrative stated that most of the Hungarian Jews were sent to Birkenau and gassed on arrival; all the kids certainly were killed. Peter Lantos a Hungarian Jewish boy states quite clearly that two transports of Hungarian Jews arrived at Austria with 6 thousand others while one went to Birkenau. Peter was certainly not murdered; his father died of malnutrition simply for trading his food for smokes. Deutschland-ein-denkmal have listed over 230 Zwangarbeitslager für Juden in Austria, primarily for Hungarian Jews. Österreichische Arbeitslager Most camps held about 2 thousand (like Treblinka), so these Austrian camps could easily cater for 460 000 Hungarian Jews. It would seem the statement that they all went to Birkenau is fallacious. Most were not murdered at Birkenau because they simply did not arrive, so it would seem. Most of the testimony of separation at Birkenau apart from the sexes is that of the elderly; this fits entirely within aktion 14f13 euthanasia program which took about 20 thousand lives (Reich and territories), not just Jews. There is also the issue of a 123 Zwangarbeitslager in the Russian East. Russische Ostlager As mentioned this is work in progress as most of these camps were of short duration. In addition to these were the Schmelt und Todt organization camps which produced war materials and did construction work. There were also the konzentrationslager such as at Kaiswerwald used for shale oil extraction. Near Kaiswerwald there are reports of 500 Jewish kids dying of a measles epidemic. It is interesting that as the war progressed these camps disappeared and clones reappearing like quantum particles further west. Nessie has noted that no camps were liberated in the Russian East in 1944; he is correct, everyone had pissed off. The Sobibor witnesses have described they left with most of the transport going to a large number of work camps; some went to about 16. Some of the decrepit were taken away on tippers and shot it seems (14f13). I cannot find a Fahrplananordnung for Sobibor or for Belzec but it will be possible to map camps on the most likely rail routes. To Sobibor the train would need to stop at Siedlce so the camps to there still apply and at Siedlce there were about 6 labour camps from memory. It is interesting to note that once we mentioned that Sobibor maps did not correlate with the photos discovered (old forum) the maps on the internet suddenly changed to align. They were changed after the new information. Too late we have preserved the old maps.
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Post by Callahan on Dec 21, 2022 0:31:56 GMT
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Dec 21, 2022 2:07:33 GMT
Thank you Callahan. Butterfangers discourse of my work over various threads here was on point. This has instigated a discussion there which is positive. They have, however, hopelessly gone off the rails. An interesting point is: This is wrong, the trains did go from Malkinia along the Malkinia-Siedlce main trunk line stopping at Treblinka station siding along the way. From there the wagons were shunted via another locomotive to the camps. Prudent Regret postulated the hypothesis of this rail being narrow gauge. The interview of Faurisson with Oslzuk infers that TII was the judenlager of the Zwangarbeitslager (Treblinka I Zwangarbeitslager für juden Treblinka); jews had to be separated from others by law. Lamrecht has noticed that the maps do not show the camps of Ostland and Ukraine, which is work in progress. The reason for this is that the names of the camps are known but the locations do not always correlate with the names. Here are the names of some of the Zwangarbeitslager für Juden here. Butterfangers excellent interpretation of work is derailed instantly by Iriswho concentrates on the number of Jews allegedly sent to Treblinka. Butterfangers said: This poster has correctly identified the Korherr report as the figure for the numbers. The Höfle telegram despite its ambiguity is used by some as support for the actual number. Die Fahrplananordnung are transport time table arrangements; as Treblinka is the final destination on the few existing documents there is no doubt this destination was on the main track so borjasticks argument fails. To discuss another narrow rail sparking PRs interest is really another topic. The railways would have used many Fahrplananordnung, the assumption being by believers that all who entered the train arrived en masse at the destination point. This is why Nessie used these in his Treblinka evidence. As you are obviously aware there were lengthy stops at Jewish labour camps along the way which to me gives more than reasonable doubt that the transportees arrived en massr at Treblinka. The documents show lengthy stops at Malkinia and Siedlce the gateway stations to Ostland and the Ukraine where there were a multitude of other labour camps for Jews. There is evidence that 3 thousand young men, the first Warsaw transport did not arrive at Treblinka but went to Bobruysk to the SS Labour camp for Jews. Some returned to the GG a few years later. It is a fact that the Jewish workforce was highly mobile, moving from one place to another as necessary for the war effort. Jews moved to and from the GG to Ostland/Ukraine depending on the skill set needed or if work was completed. While it is possible thousands of Jews did arrive at Treblinka for murder, the Fahrplananordnung documentation presented as evidence for this is seriously flawed due to the extended stops at Jewish labour camp locations. In a modern court these documents would be rejected. The reason why believers such as Nessie have not presented other Fahrplananordnung that show a direct route without stops to Treblinka (apart from coal and water) is because in reality they do not exist, never have done. These labour camps produced essential war material in many cases. Skarzysko-Kamienna (Skarzysko-Kam on document) produced explosives, TNT. Like their British counterpart the workers suffered poisoning from the toxins.(read book "Death Comes in Yellow"); that aside the TNT and other material would be picked up on return transports. It is also interesting to note that there were 230 Jewish labour camps in Austria just for Hungarian Jews. Peter Lantos was about 9 when he arrived at one with his parents. Two of the three transports for Jews went to Austria, only one to Auschwitz. The average muster of camps were two thousand, which means that these camps, still in existence till wars end could carry 460 thousand Hungarian Jews. Yad Vashem claims 424,000 Jews were deported with another assumption they all ended up in Auschwitz. Some did as evidence by Lantos, but a good proportion laboured in the land of the Alps, goats and black bread. Any person with this knowledge should have reasonable doubts about mass arrivals and subsequent disappearances, the claim of murder as the cause. I have expressed serious doubt that they arrived at all.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Dec 21, 2022 8:55:29 GMT
On the links given I never noticed the second page on that highly moderated forum. I will respond to those in due course, here. I joined and made a comment at CODOH. This will be most likely the only comment I ever make there.
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