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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 14, 2022 23:42:22 GMT
Treblinka II was operational from 23 July 1942 and yet there are reports of Jewish inmates (Häftlinge) being sent from Malkinia transit camp to Auschwitz for special treatment: this is absurd considering there was a fully fledged extermination camp 6 kilometres or so down the road. linkHere is the entry: Fridman Lejb * 08.09.1910 in Nasielsk Häftlingsnummer 81 459 Ankunft Auschwitz am 10.12.1942 aus dem Durchgangslager Malkinia. Nach der "Selektion" werden 524 Männer als Häftlinge registriert; die anderen 1 976 Menschen werden der Sonderbehandlung zugeführt. translated Fridman Lejb * September 8, 1910 in Nasielsk Prisoner number 81 459 Arrival at Auschwitz on December 10, 1942 from the Malkinia transit camp. After the "selection" 524 men are registered as prisoners; the other 1,976 people are given special treatment. then
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 17, 2022 2:48:51 GMT
I will add more information as I get time and put this as a formal proposition. The camp most likely referred to in the fahrplanaordnung documents 7 mins away is the Malkinia transit camp which would be referred to as Treblinka. This is most likely the Malkinia loop some 1.5 km away from the Malkinia station. Yitzhak Arad writes that I contend this was the final destination for thousands heading east. It is plausible this is a Treblinka camp and can be the only explanation for a huge train taking 7 minutes to arrive from the Malkinia station. This loop is a mere 1.5 km away which would take 7 - 10 minutes to reach. It would be an impossibility for a train to accelerate fully loaded and travel the 4.6 km to Treblinka station in that time. To be fair there are documents for transports to Treblinka from the Siedlce end whose final destination is Treblinka station; there were two camps in the vicinity, TII and the arbeitslager at the Quarry TI which were stocked full of people. Here are reports of people being sent from the Malkinia transit camp to Auschwitz for extermination, which is rather odd considering there was an extermination camp apparently down the road. Then there is the Hirtreiter trial where: It was the judiciary that decided Hirtreiter was at another location to suit their purposes. In his article "The Treblinka Holocaust", originally published in 1994, Arnulf Neumaier writes: 3.7 miles is 5.9 km. The location 5.9km north of Treblinka is the Malkinia loop. A few metres to the right of the yellow line was the probable location of the Malkinia transit camp, now covered in scrub. 740' × 820' is 226 m x 250m; this is too small for the complete area in yellow but the area above in blue has the railway line and due north the same as the Treblinka map below as well as the first Wiernik map. One of the first Treblinka maps showing due north at variance with the current TII Wierniks first map with camp on Warsaw Bialystok line. Due north is out of wack with the current TII .
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 17, 2022 21:31:38 GMT
Here is a caption by USHMM who have clearly not researched this. Here is the same place from "google earth"; the image is inverted as upwards is south towards Siedlce. One can clearly see in the top 1944 map of what appears to be a former camp area. Here is the same image from "google earth" with the right aspect where up is North. One can see the location of the Treblinka museum in this image.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Sept 19, 2022 0:27:35 GMT
There were also news reports of a "death camp" in Treblinka before TII was even constructed: codoh.com/library/document/a-premature-news-report-on-a-death-camp-for-jews/en/Mainstream historiography universally claims that gassings at Treblinka started July 22 or 23 1942 with the arrival of the first transports from Warsaw. But the Dziennik Polski paper in London was reporting on gassings in Treblinka on July 9th, before the camp even opened. There were even more reports of a "Treblinka death camp" going back to May 1942. This would suggest that there was a transit camp in operation before TII which was known as "Treblinka". This transit camp was the original source of extermination rumors which preceded the construction of TII, and TII only later became THE Treblinka of extermination legend. Another small thing is that the Auschwitz Museum casually recognizes a "transit camp in Malkinia" in this tweet: I wouldn't say for certain that this transit camp was located on the loop, although it's a possibility. But what is clear is that historians are making huge assumptions when they say a train schedule with a destination of "Treblinka" referred to TII. They did not. Stroop is the only one who specifies TII, and that was a small proportion of all the Jews named in that particular report.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 19, 2022 1:28:59 GMT
I find it strange that men would be sent to Auschwitz for gassing some 500 km away when there was a fully fledged extermination camp in full swing a few kilometers south. I am interested in the Treblinka trial map which can be found here. This is rectangular like the first Wiernik map not showing the apparent trapezoid shape of Treblinka B. I have laid this side by side on the cleared area 1944 next to the Malkinia loop where I think (and Irving btw) it was. The interesting point is the yellow and red section where the alleged extermination area was purported to be. You can see in an identical area in the clearing a strange discoloration (darkening) as though something had been happening in that area. I have added the adjacent images here. The area is fully overgrown now and never touched.
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Post by Prudent_Regret on Sept 19, 2022 2:28:58 GMT
I find it strange that men would be sent to Auschwitz for gassing some 500 km away when there was a fully fledged extermination camp in full swing a few kilometers south. I am interested in the Treblinka trial map which can be found here. This is rectangular like the first Wiernik map not showing the apparent trapezoid shape of Treblinka B. I have laid this side by side on the cleared area 1944 next to the Malkinia loop where I think (and Irving btw) it was. Where does Irving talk about this issue?
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 19, 2022 6:16:47 GMT
My bad. I skim read this and attributed it to David in my mind without rechecking. Michael Mills, writes in a letter to David Irving: link
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Post by Nessie on Sept 19, 2022 12:28:11 GMT
T...But what is clear is that historians are making huge assumptions when they say a train schedule with a destination of "Treblinka" referred to TII. They did not. Stroop is the only one who specifies TII, and that was a small proportion of all the Jews named in that particular report. Historians are not making assumptions. There is evidence to prove the mass transports went to the camp on the spur line near to TI labour camp. That evidence comes from every single witness who was at or near TII, who reports seeing mass transports, Nazi, Jewish and local Pole. That is in the region of 5O plus witnesses all agreeing with each other. Not one witness can be found who states he or she was at that camp and it did not receive mass transports. That Stroop specifies mass transports went from the Warsaw ghetto to TII, is circumstantial evidence than any reference to Treblinka or "T", is to the same camp. That circumstantial evidence is further corroborated by TI being a penal, labour camp for Poles with no evidence of regular mass transports and that all the staff at TII were AR staff, and AR was the action to clear the ghettos and seize the last of the Jewish property. When Hofle refers to AR and "T", he is referring to the camp that received mass transports as part of that action, which is evidenced to be TII, the camp on the spur line to TI labour camp. That is how historians have evidenced and so proved it was the camp that took the mass transports. They have not made assumptions and it is dishonest of you to claim they have. You need to look up the meaning of assumption and learn it.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 19, 2022 22:00:11 GMT
Historians are not making assumptions. There is evidence to prove the mass transports went to the camp on the spur line near to TI labour camp. That evidence comes from every single witness who was at or near TII, who reports seeing mass transports, Nazi, Jewish and local Pole. That is in the region of 5O plus witnesses all agreeing with each other. Not one witness can be found who states he or she was at that camp and it did not receive mass transports. That Stroop specifies mass transports went from the Warsaw ghetto to TII, is circumstantial evidence than any reference to Treblinka or "T", is to the same camp. That circumstantial evidence is further corroborated by TI being a penal, labour camp for Poles with no evidence of regular mass transports and that all the staff at TII were AR staff, and AR was the action to clear the ghettos and seize the last of the Jewish property. When Hofle refers to AR and "T", he is referring to the camp that received mass transports as part of that action, which is evidenced to be TII, the camp on the spur line to TI labour camp. That is how historians have evidenced and so proved it was the camp that took the mass transports. They have not made assumptions and it is dishonest of you to claim they have. You need to look up the meaning of assumption and learn it. It was made quite clear that trains did arrive at the camps you mention, the muster was about 5 thousand; the witnesses you mention are few and far between with many obvious liars. This discussion is on the Malkinia camp which did exist. Whether Stroop sent people to a TII is irrelevant to the existence of the Malkinia camp; whether mass murder occurred at TII is also irrelevant to the Malkinia camp except to say again that Jews from the Malkinia Transit camp in December 42 were sent to Auschwitz for extermination. One would think they would send them a few km to this TII for the same process instead of a trip some 500 km. Treblinka is most likely Malkinia and not TII; this is where the evidence is heading, which will explain the issues you raise with the staff. Stick to the topic please. Apart from Stroop please tell us documents that mention TII or Treblinka B. Perhaps many of those transports went to TI, which also had Jews.
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 19, 2022 22:03:40 GMT
Nessie wrote:
I am assuming nothing. I've read what is written in the fahrplanaordnung's timetables. Trains from Malkinia arrived at Treblinka in 7 minutes. Two hours and 40 minutes later they left Treblinka empty. You are making up fantasies about trains then shuttling between Treblinka and Treblinka II for 2 hours and 30 minutes before leaving Treblinka with the cars cleaned and the locomotive refueled and serviced for it's next trip. Where do you come up with such mindless claptrap? The fahrplanaordnungs said that the trains from Malkinia arrived at Treblinka and make no mention of any other movement by the trains for a period of 2 hours and 40 minutes. Full stop, end of story. Where do you get the notion that the trains from Malkinia to Treblinka continued on to Treblinka II?
Who is claiming that the Malkinia Treblinka or the penal camp at Treblinka were part of the AR camps?
No, I DON'T claim "regular mass transports" out of Treblinka II. That's just your little sly lie, Nessie. As far as what happened to the Jews who were transported to the various camps, yep, your right, those train records no longer exist. There's some peripheral records for what happened to some of the Jews but the defining data, the train timetables/schedules no longer exist. Gone, poof, disappeared like a will o' the wisp.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 19, 2022 22:33:07 GMT
Where is the evidence TI penal camp, which primarily took Polish prisoners, was part of AR?Who is claiming that the Malkinia Treblinka or the penal camp at Treblinka were part of the AR camps? No, I DON'T claim "regular mass transports" out of Treblinka II. That's just your little sly lie, Nessie. As far as what happened to the Jews who were transported to the various camps, yep, your right, those train records no longer exist. There's some peripheral records for what happened to some of the Jews but the defining data, the train timetables/schedules no longer exist. Gone, poof, disappeared like a will o' the wisp. Nessie is trying to derail with another "where did they go". I am beginning to suspect that the US Intelligence reports are correct. The correctional facility changed to a transit camp. The current TII was a judenlager for TI; the extermination camp was a few km down the road at Kosow Laski; this was for 14f13
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 20, 2022 2:51:46 GMT
"Subject was arrested and interrogated by this office on 6 July 1946; the following facts were ascertained." — Counter Intelligence CorpsAlan Dershowitz Letter 07 19-Apr-2001 The Josef Hirtreiter confessionlink19 April 2001 Alan M. Dershowitz Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law 520 Hauser Hall Harvard Law School 1575 Massachusetts Avenue Harvard University Cambridge, MA 02138 USA
Alan Dershowitz: In the Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC) document reproduced below, SS-Unterscharführer Josef HIRTREITER is said to confess to working with an SS Sonderkommando at Malkinia, Poland, there leading Jews into gas chambers, witnessing the burial of bodies in mass graves, and witnessing bodies being disinterred and burned. Malkinia, as the CIC appears to learn from HIRTREITER, was a death camp of major significance, as one period of four or five days saw the gassing of 4,000 Jews. This Counter Intelligence Corps document is not easy to dismiss as a fabrication, as it comes with identifying notation which facilitates verification. However, consulting leading books on the Jewish holocaust, I find that Malkinia is rarely listed in the index, and when it is mentioned at all, it is never as a death camp or a camp employing gas chambers, and not even as a concentration camp or a work camp, but only as a transfer facility. Perhaps the following are the three chief hypotheses among which might be found an explanation of the incongruity between the HIRTREITER confession and the absence of historical coverage: As major death camps like Malkinia are being overlooked by Jewish-holocaust historians, the Jewish holocaust is of larger proportions than is commonly recognized. Josef HIRTREITER's confession was obtained under duress, possibly even under torture. Josef HIRTREITER's confession was fabricated by Counter Intelligence Corps personnel. If the first of the above hypotheses is true, then it would suggest that contemporary Jewish-holocaust historians are of limited competence, and their limited competence should be recognized and explored whenever they testify as expert witnesses in war crimes proceedings. A historian capable of overlooking the gas chambers of Malkinia should be revealed to the court as being of reduced help to either side in war crimes litigation — the prosecution should be disappointed by his failure to appreciate the magnitude of the Jewish holocaust, and the defense should fear that his blindness may extend to vital exculpatory evidence. On the other hand, if either or both of the last two hypotheses are true, then it might be speculated that the hyperbolization of the Jewish holocaust that is evident around us today was ongoing even during the earliest post-war investigations, and that some perhaps substantial proportion of the evidence that has been entered into the historical record is false. In view of the HIRTREITER confession, then, and in view of the troubling hypotheses that it calls to mind, do you not feel that it would be prudent to exercise caution in the prosecution of suspected Nazi war criminals today, and to exercise caution as well in the dissemination of Jewish-holocaust stories that come unsupported by forensic evidence? And would you not be performing a great service to truth, and to uplifting the depressed credibility of the Jewish people, if you called upon the U.S. Office of Special Investigations (OSI) to begin allocating some of its resources to prosecuting those who may have coerced or tortured German prisoners, or fabricated evidence against them? One hears today how frequently re-examination of DNA evidence reveals wrongful convictions; one wonders if, similarly, a re-evaluation of Nazi confessions might not reveal many that were — like Josef HIRTREITER's — palpably false, and in some cases lead to a posthumous exoneration of Germans who had been wrongfully executed. To return to a more immediate case, perhaps justice would be better served if more of the targets of OSI prosecution today were people like confession-extorting CIC Special Agent Jack Friedlander, and fewer of the targets were people like retired-blue-collar-working WW II victim John Demjanjuk. Lubomyr Prytulak
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Post by 1clown on Sept 20, 2022 3:18:38 GMT
Historians are not making assumptions. There is evidence to prove the mass transports went to the camp on the spur line near to TI labour camp. That evidence comes from every single witness who was at or near TII, who reports seeing mass transports, Nazi, Jewish and local Pole. That is in the region of 5O plus witnesses all agreeing with each other. Not one witness can be found who states he or she was at that camp and it did not receive mass transports. That Stroop specifies mass transports went from the Warsaw ghetto to TII, is circumstantial evidence than any reference to Treblinka or "T", is to the same camp. That circumstantial evidence is further corroborated by TI being a penal, labour camp for Poles with no evidence of regular mass transports and that all the staff at TII were AR staff, and AR was the action to clear the ghettos and seize the last of the Jewish property. When Hofle refers to AR and "T", he is referring to the camp that received mass transports as part of that action, which is evidenced to be TII, the camp on the spur line to TI labour camp. That is how historians have evidenced and so proved it was the camp that took the mass transports. They have not made assumptions and it is dishonest of you to claim they have. You need to look up the meaning of assumption and learn it. It was made quite clear that trains did arrive at the camps you mention, the muster was about 5 thousand; the witnesses you mention are few and far between with many obvious liars. This discussion is on the Malkinia camp which did exist. Whether Stroop sent people to a TII is irrelevant to the existence of the Malkinia camp; whether mass murder occurred at TII is also irrelevant to the Malkinia camp except to say again that Jews from the Malkinia Transit camp in December 42 were sent to Auschwitz for extermination. One would think they would send them a few km to this TII for the same process instead of a trip some 500 km. Treblinka is most likely Malkinia and not TII; this is where the evidence is heading, which will explain the issues you raise with the staff. Stick to the topic please. Apart from Stroop please tell us documents that mention TII or Treblinka B. Perhaps many of those transports went to TI, which also had Jews. Is capacity a reasonable argument for why Auschwitz would be chosen, regardless of what happened at either TII or Auschwitz? Whether talking about extermination rate or flat housing capacity, it seems only logical that there's got to be a point at which it would make sense to transport people to a place at a further distance, especially if Malkinia/Treblinka were acting as a transit hub.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on Sept 20, 2022 4:23:05 GMT
Is capacity a reasonable argument for why Auschwitz would be chosen, regardless of what happened at either TII or Auschwitz? Whether talking about extermination rate or flat housing capacity, it seems only logical that there's got to be a point at which it would make sense to transport people to a place at a further distance, especially if Malkinia/Treblinka were acting as a transit hub. Salmen says: Lejb says: Here we have two witnesses with different accounts of how many were snuffed; both cant be right. If Salmen is correct why not send them down the road to Treblinka for the same process. The SS were scrooges when it came to finance; transporting long distances when trains are going to Treblinka every day does not seems to make much sense.
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Post by Turnagain on Sept 20, 2022 7:58:29 GMT
Nazgul wrote:
In my best Nessie imitation, there coulda' been two different timelines in two different realities with the each reality having a holyhoax, but the separate realities having differing details. Due to a glitch in the matrix, the two realities fused into one holyhoax but the different claims for the number of victims remained unchanged. That is evidence that both numbers are correct.
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