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Post by been_there on May 28, 2023 12:28:06 GMT
Courtesy of historians [holyhoax heirophants] Terry and Hilberg, here is how many Jews they say were gassed. This is how many Jews revisionists need to answer the question, where did they go? www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=917980#p917980"Camps up to 2,900,000 German Death camps up to 2,600,000 Auschwitz up to 1,000,000 Treblinka up to ... [blah, blah, blah]Hilberg's.. with Kranz's... Jews, most of whom died of exhaustion or shooting and only a minority from gassing, while the Auschwitz figure will include 10s of 1000s who died from exhaustion and illness among registered inmates... [snip]The AR deportations include many thousands, likely several 10s of 1000s, who died en route [snip] ...which was not an issue for other transport waves... [yawn😴]In short: the number of Jews gassed is likely not more than 2.6 million, once one subtracts non-gassing deaths at some of the camps and adds in gassing deaths elsewhere... then this makes for a bare majority... if Hilberg is right... then half, if ... or more then just under half." Ok. Er... so... Q1. how exactly is this 2.6 million figure of Jews allegedly ALL killed by gas arrived at? Are we to understand it is by the above type of confirmation-bias guesswork? 😮🤪 and Q2.) what — if there is one — is the official figure for deaths of Jews during WW2 by what can be called ‘collateral damage’? I.e. (and now I am explaining for any intelligence-compromised individuals reading) that means Jews who ’died’ and so were NOT ’killed’, whether by bullets or gas + other unintended deaths. And if there isn’t a figure, why isn’t there? Oh yeah. I’ve already asked that. Multiple times. And Nessie still doesn’t understand how that is relevant to answering ’where did they go?’. 🙄🤦♂️ And if Holyhoax mass-gassing heirophants can ’know’ these numbers are accurate, how come they can’t answer these questions: Q3.) how many Jews in total were there in all the territories that came under the control of the German Third Reich? Q4.) what is the official total figure of Jewish ‘survivors’ who emigrated out of Europe during and after the war?
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Post by Nessie on May 28, 2023 14:03:13 GMT
Courtesy of historians [holyhoax heirophants] Terry and Hilberg, here is how many Jews they say were gassed. This is how many Jews revisionists need to answer the question, where did they go? www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=917980#p917980"Camps up to 2,900,000 German Death camps up to 2,600,000 Auschwitz up to 1,000,000 Treblinka up to ... [blah, blah, blah]Hilberg's.. with Kranz's... Jews, most of whom died of exhaustion or shooting and only a minority from gassing, while the Auschwitz figure will include 10s of 1000s who died from exhaustion and illness among registered inmates... [snip]The AR deportations include many thousands, likely several 10s of 1000s, who died en route [snip] ...which was not an issue for other transport waves... [yawn😴]In short: the number of Jews gassed is likely not more than 2.6 million, once one subtracts non-gassing deaths at some of the camps and adds in gassing deaths elsewhere... then this makes for a bare majority... if Hilberg is right... then half, if ... or more then just under half." Ok. Er... so... Q1. how exactly is this 2.6 million figure of Jews allegedly ALL killed by gas arrived at? Are we to understand it is by the above type of confirmation-bias guesswork? 😮🤪 and Q2.) what — if there is one — is the official figure for deaths of Jews during WW2 by what can be called ‘collateral damage’? I.e. (and now I am explaining for any intelligence-compromised individuals reading) that means Jews who ’died’ and so were NOT ’killed’, whether by bullets or gas. And if there isn’t a figure, why isn’t there? Oh yeah. I’ve already asked that. Multiple times. And Nessie still doesn’t understand how that is relevant to answering ’where did they go?’. 🙄🤦♂️ You have failed to explain how answering your questions, answers the topic question of "where did they go?". We are now on to page 9 of the topic, "where did they go?". So far, the answer is, other camps and ghettos, based on historians finding even more camps than most people were aware of. That is no more or less vague than the other revisionists answer of, they were resettled in the east. You like to question other people's intelligence, but you fail to show any understanding of what evidence you need to prove people were not gassed in the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas. Instead, you continue with the revisionist tactic of being vague. Anyone who reads this thread will see 9 pages of obfuscation by revisionists, who clearly do not have any contemporaneous evidence from witnesses, documents, circumstantial, physical or any other form of evidence, of what did happen inside those places and the subsequent transit and accommodation of millions of Jews, supposedly not gassed. If no Jew was gassed, that would add about 2.6 million Jews to the camp and ghetto population by the autumn of 1944. That would mean 20 camps the size of A-B, or nearly 6 Warsaw ghettos. It is a huge population and remember, revisionists like to claim their deaths were hoaxed. That needs the cooperation of those 2.6 million to play dead at the end of the war, the Nazis to pretend they gassed them and the Allies to pretend they did not liberate so many people.
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Post by been_there on May 28, 2023 16:05:31 GMT
Ok. Er... so... Q1. how exactly is this 2.6 million figure of Jews allegedly ALL killed by gas arrived at? Are we to understand it is by the above type of confirmation-bias guesswork? 😮🤪 and Q2.) what — if there is one — is the official figure for deaths of Jews during WW2 by what can be called ‘collateral damage’? I.e. (and now I am explaining for any intelligence-compromised individuals reading) that means Jews who ’died’ and so were NOT ’killed’, whether by bullets or gas. And if there isn’t a figure, why isn’t there? Oh yeah. I’ve already asked that. Multiple times. And Nessie still doesn’t understand how that is relevant to answering ’where did they go?’. 🙄🤦♂️ You have failed to explain how answering your questions, answers the topic question of "where did they go?". We are now on to page 9 of the topic, "where did they go?". So far,... [blah, blah, blah, whinge, whine, blah, blah]]... what evidence you need to prove people were not gassed in the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas... ...Anyone who reads this thread will see 9 pages of obfuscation... ...do not have any contemporaneous evidence from witnesses, documents, circumstantial, physical or any other form of evidence, of what did happen inside those places ...revisionists like to claim their deaths were hoaxed. That needs the cooperation of those 2.6 million to play dead at the end of the war... [snipped uninintelligent nonsense and strawman waffle]Holy moly! 🤦♂️ And this demand for ”evidence” is from the person who’s threshold for evidence for the ’holyhoax’ mass-gassing belief-system is so low that they believed quoting from an encyclopedia article constituted ”evidence”. 🙄 This from the person who refused for over a month to provide a single named ’eye-witness’ who’s testimony they believed to be the most credible. And then eventually named one of the least credible ’witnesses’ of all. 🤪 And this from the person who still hasn’t answered my basic, first question above. (Q1). Nor any of the other three. This from the person who STILL doesn’t understand that if someone doubts the holocaust mass-gassing claims, they are not denying them, nor making any alternative ”claims” of what occurred. So they have no need to provide alternative scenarios nor evidence for them. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. It is the holocaust, mass-murder-by-gassing ”claim” that is being critically examined at RODOH. Holocaust defenders and true-believers constantly try to avoid that fact, presumably because they deep-down know they have no credible evidence to support it, nor any intelligent answer to the exposure of the narrative’s many flaws and physical impossibilities. BOTTOM LINE: This topic-thread includes pointing out the intellectual bankruptcy of this fall-back, logically fallacious question of ’where did they go, then?’. Ironically, anyone insisting on relying on it in order to attempt to shift the burden of proof, is inadvertently admitting that there is no evidence for this extraordinary atrocity propaganda. A guesstimate total of 2.6 million people gassed, then burned/buried, then made to disappear without trace in specific places, is an extraordinary claim. Nobody who doubts the accuracy of that claimed number needs to explain where they went UNTIL in the first place that number of allegedly gassed people is credibly evidenced. Nessie predictably hasn’t even attempted to do that. Nessie still doesn’t even understand why if — for the sake of argument — we guessed that: a.) 1.6 million died from other causes (hardship, deprivation, cold, disease, British starvation embargoes, allied bombings, etc.,), b.) 1 million emigrated after and during the war, how that would affect the scope of this topic’s ’argument-from-ignorance’ question. Nessie can’t comprehend that: c.) the 2.6 million is not a reliable figure based on anything other than guesswork. And she/he can’t understand the self-evident logic that: d.) if there were only say 7.5 million who ever came under Axis control in the first place, and say 5.5 million of them survived the war, then the Holocaust claims are refuted by simple arithmetic.
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Post by Nessie on May 28, 2023 16:49:37 GMT
The topic started by been-there, is "where did they go?". That is the standard response to revisionist claims that the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas were not used to mass gas c2.6 million people. The vast majority of people understand that if they were not gassed, then the Nazis had to transport and accommodate them and c2.6 million people would leave a lot of evidence of their presence, from witnesses, documents, the physical sites needed to accommodate them. It is normal, when disputing reports people have been killed, to produce evidence they are still alive. All been-there needs to do, to prove those places were not used for mass gassing, is to produce evidence of what did happen at those places and so evidence those people were not killed and they left alive. Let's look at what been-there does. .....Holy moly! 🤦♂️ And this demand for ”evidence” is from the person who’s threshold for evidence for the ’holyhoax’ mass-gassing belief-system is so low that they believed quoting from an encyclopedia article constituted ”evidence”. 🙄 This from the person who refused for over a month to provide a single named ’eye-witness’ who’s testimony they believed to be the most credible. And then eventually named one of the least credible ’witnesses’ of all. 🤪 And this from the person who still hasn’t answered my basic, first question above. (Q1). Nor any of the other three. This from the person who STILL doesn’t understand that if someone doubts the holocaust mass-gassing claims, they are not denying them, nor making any alternative ”claims” of what occurred. So they have no need to provide alternative scenarios nor evidence for them. Instead of producing evidence, he has a go at me. Instead of producing evidence, he reverses the burden of proof, acting as if he has no duty to evidence mass survival and what happened. This tac tic is used a lot, to defect from the revisionist's inability to evidence what did happen instead of gassings. Instead of producing evidence, he suggests asking what happened, is logically flawed. There is no other event in history, where asking what happened is considered to be logically flawed. It is normal and rational to ask, if that did not happen, then what did? Instead of producing evidence, he makes a logically flawed argument. The evidence for mass gassing has been produced, the witnesses who were inside the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas. The documents pertaining to those places, archaeological and other surveys of those places. The circumstantial evidence of the Nazi policy towards the Jews, to keep some for work and kill the rest, whilst stealing their property to help fund the war. Instead of producing evidence, been-there makes false claims. The estimate of 2.6 million gassed comes from years of studying witness, documentary and other evidence. It is not mere guess work as he goes on to suggest. It is false to claim those people disappeared without a trace, as archaeological surveys have found large areas of cremated human remains at the AR camps and Chelmno and there is evidence of mass cremations at A-B. They did not disappear without trace, they were cremated. He is trying to deflect from the revisionist claim of mass transit and resettlement, which was somehow done without leaving any trace. That is the extraordinary claim, for which no evidence has been provided. It is the revisionist claim that has people disappearing without leaving any trace. Instead of producing evidence, been-there bandies about overall figures and requests for figures, of war dead, as if that, somehow, will answer the question, "where did they go?". It is self-evident logic that if 7.5 million Jews were in Nazi captivity and 5.5 million survived the war, then 2.6 million were not gassed. So, why does been-there not do some research and find the evidence himself? The answer is that been-there knows there is no evidence that something else happened in those places, and that instead of being gassed, c2.6 million people were transported and accommodated somewhere else. This thread proves revisionists have no evidence to answer the question, "where did they go?". Instead of answering the question, with an evidenced answer, been-there resorts to other tactics, to deflect and obfuscate, as he tries to sustain his cultist beliefs.
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Post by Nessie on May 28, 2023 17:15:42 GMT
Here are examples of evidence that would prove no gassings. Remember, history is establish by the evidence.
A witness who worked inside one of the AR camps, Chelmno or an A-B Krema, to say what did happen and how the people sent to those places were processed. That witness could be Nazi (German or Ukrainian) or Jewish (every Nazi occupied country had Jews sent to at least one of those places) or even civilians (such as the Topf & Sons engineers who worked at A-B). Considering how many people worked in those places and were sent there, finding a witness to what really happened, should be easy.
A document that directly pertains to one of those places, that makes it clear what happened. For example, a document that records the processing, showering and departure of people. Or, a document that records the numbers transported back of the camps, or a document recording mass arrivals from those camps. Another example, one that been-there has touched upon, would be documentary evidence of millions of Jews being liberated in 1945. If that was happening, then clearly, millions were not killed.
Physical evidence, such as archaeological surveys of the camp sites, that find undisturbed ground where mass graves were claimed to be located. That would prove no mass graves were dug. No mass graves, means no mass killings.
Circumstantial evidence, such as a Nazi plan to keep the Jews alive and in camps and ghettos, until liberation.
Been-there has no such evidence. So, instead, he tries other, really see through, childish tactics, to try to avoid admitting he is wrong and that mass gassings did take place, as evidence by multiple witnesses, documents, physical and other evidence. Evidence determines what happened.
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Post by been_there on May 28, 2023 18:46:33 GMT
Ho-hum. 🙄
Two more replies that: 1. dodge the simple questions, 2. avoid all the points just made.
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Post by Nessie on May 28, 2023 19:17:42 GMT
Ho-hum. 🙄 Two more replies that: 1. dodge the simple questions, 2. avoid all the points just made. Let's go through the questions. I have answered already, it has been derived by years of studying the EVIDENCE, from witnesses, documents etc. For example, transport records to AR camps and the evidence of gas chambers at those places. You have ignored that the answer to where they went, is derived from EVIDENCE. Why is that? Before I give you some more answers, explain how subtracting the collateral damage figure (Q1) and the number of 'survivors' (Q3) from overall total (Q2) under Nazi control, evidences where the Jews supposedly not gassed went. Show me how answering those questions will evidence where the Dutch Jews supposedly not gassed at Sobibor in 1943, went.
Explain why the answer to what happened to the Dutch Jews, is not derived the EVIDENCE of what happened inside Sobibor and from evidence that would prove most left the camp to go elsewhere.
The reason why I am asking you that, is because you are trying to send me on a wild goose chase, to waste my time, dodge the topic and avoid having to admit you cannot evidence any alternative to gassings at certain camps. Now I have explained your ruse and how I can see through it, I expect you to throw a few insults and storm off, as you have repeatedly done in the past.
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Post by 𝝥𝝰𝘇𝗴𝝻𝝸 on May 29, 2023 1:48:28 GMT
Evidence a camp, liberated in 1945, that was being guarded by a private company. Most of the labour camps had security guards. One of the main private contractors was the "Organization Todt" responsible for over a million forced workers, many Jews. The organization Todt was a civil engineering and construction company. At the beginning of the war it became completely independent of the state government and the party and the organisation was given far-reaching powers. link The Todt organization had the Schutzkommando. Once again the term "Liberated" is used when it was explained clearly that inmates simply fled as the guards became demoralized. Camps with no guards and no inmates cannot be liberated. This is a fiction, Nessie likes to continue with. Quoting miss X once more, she was Jüdin working for Organization Todt (Organisation Todt, Unternehmen Berthold, about 20 miles from Breslau. Breslau was the last major city in Germany to surrender, 6 May 45.
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Post by Nessie on May 29, 2023 7:44:34 GMT
Evidence a camp, liberated in 1945, that was being guarded by a private company. Most of the labour camps had security guards. One of the main private contractors was the "Organization Todt" responsible for over a million forced workers, many Jews. The organization Todt was a civil engineering and construction company. At the beginning of the war it became completely independent of the state government and the party and the organisation was given far-reaching powers. link The Todt organization had the Schutzkommando. Once again the term "Liberated" is used when it was explained clearly that inmates simply fled as the guards became demoralized. Camps with no guards and no inmates cannot be liberated. This is a fiction, Nessie likes to continue with. Quoting miss X once more, she was Jüdin working for Organization Todt (Organisation Todt, Unternehmen Berthold, about 20 miles from Breslau. Breslau was the last major city in Germany to surrender, 6 May 45. Good, you are getting that you prove your claims, using evidence and have evidenced what happened inside an OT camp. Now, evidence what happened in an AR camp.
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Post by been_there on May 29, 2023 10:23:13 GMT
The topic started by been-there, is "where did they go?". That is the standard response to revisionist claims that the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas were not used to mass gas c2.6 million people. The vast majority of people understand that if they were not gassed, then the Nazis had to transport and accommodate them and c2.6 million people would leave a lot of evidence of their presence, from witnesses, documents, the physical sites needed to accommodate them. It is normal, when disputing reports people have been killed, to produce evidence they are still alive. All been-there needs to do, to prove those places were not used for mass gassing, is to produce evidence of what did happen at those places and so evidence those people were not killed and they left alive. Let's look at what been-there does. .....Holy moly! 🤦♂️ And this demand for ”evidence” is from the person who’s threshold for evidence for the ’holyhoax’ mass-gassing belief-system is so low that they believed quoting from an encyclopedia article constituted ”evidence”. 🙄 This from the person who refused for over a month to provide a single named ’eye-witness’ who’s testimony they believed to be the most credible. And then eventually named one of the least credible ’witnesses’ of all. 🤪 And this from the person who still hasn’t answered my basic, first question above. (Q1). Nor any of the other three. This from the person who STILL doesn’t understand that if someone doubts the holocaust mass-gassing claims, they are not denying them, nor making any alternative ”claims” of what occurred. So they have no need to provide alternative scenarios nor evidence for them. Instead of producing evidence, he has a go at me. Pointing out a hypocritical double-standard and a biased, logically inconsistent approach to the debate is “having a go” at your argument. It is providing further proof that you aren’t here to engage in genuine dialogue and discussion of the actual evidence. It is showing that you and every online defender I have come across of this racist, anti-German propaganda (bar one), are not interested in honest, open debate. It is demonstrating that ‘where did they go?’ is not a genuine question, but is a tactic to: i.) avoid the fact there is no credible evidence for the mass-gassing mythology; ii.) shift the burden of proof from those making the extraordinary claim to those who doubt it.
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Post by been_there on May 29, 2023 10:26:30 GMT
Most of the labour camps had security guards. One of the main private contractors was the "Organization Todt" responsible for over a million forced workers, many Jews. The organization Todt was a civil engineering and construction company. At the beginning of the war it became completely independent of the state government and the party and the organisation was given far-reaching powers. link The Todt organization had the Schutzkommando. Once again the term "Liberated" is used when it was explained clearly that inmates simply fled as the guards became demoralized. Camps with no guards and no inmates cannot be liberated. This is a fiction, Nessie likes to continue with. Quoting miss X once more, she was Jüdin working for Organization Todt (Organisation Todt, Unternehmen Berthold, about 20 miles from Breslau. Breslau was the last major city in Germany to surrender, 6 May 45. Good, you are getting that you prove your claims, using evidence and have evidenced what happened inside an OT camp. Now, evidence what happened in an AR camp. What a shockingly transparent disingenuous reply. Shameful!
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Post by Nessie on May 29, 2023 10:58:26 GMT
The topic started by been-there, is "where did they go?". That is the standard response to revisionist claims that the AR camps, Chelmno and the A-B Kremas were not used to mass gas c2.6 million people. The vast majority of people understand that if they were not gassed, then the Nazis had to transport and accommodate them and c2.6 million people would leave a lot of evidence of their presence, from witnesses, documents, the physical sites needed to accommodate them. It is normal, when disputing reports people have been killed, to produce evidence they are still alive. All been-there needs to do, to prove those places were not used for mass gassing, is to produce evidence of what did happen at those places and so evidence those people were not killed and they left alive. Let's look at what been-there does. Instead of producing evidence, he has a go at me. Pointing out a hypocritical double-standard and a biased, logically inconsistent approach to the debate is “having a go” at your argument. It is providing further proof that you aren’t here to engage in genuine dialogue and discussion of the actual evidence. It is showing that you and every online defender I have come across of this racist, anti-German propaganda (bar one), are not interested in honest, open debate. Yet again, rather than produce evidence, you are having a go. You constantly attack the person. That you do not think the evidence, from multiple witnesses, documents, archaeological surveys and circumstances, is due to your cultist beliefs. Fact is, there is corroborating, contemporaneous evidence for mass gassings, that has been repeatedly investigated and tested by hundreds of historians, journalists and lawyers, in multiple countries and found to be credible. They are a far more reliable source of testing credibility than you are. It has been repeatedly explained to you, how your argument mass gassings are not credible, is logically flawed. Just because you cannot believe it happened, as described, does not therefore mean it did not happen. The burden of proof is met with evidence. For example, evidence has been provided from multiple witnesses who worked inside the relevant camps, as to what happened. You have been asked to produce evidence to show something else happened. You have failed. It is you who has failed the burden of proof. You comment on credible witnesses and then fail to provide any credible witnesses. You also fail to acknowledge the incredible claim, of a massive hoax, that you are making. The hoax you allege requires millions of people to keep quiet about what did happen, instead of mass gassings inside certain camps, multiple Nazis to lie by making false admissions of mass gassings and for hundreds of historians, journalists and lawyers to fail to find any evidence as to what did happen, or cover up what happened. It also needs the Nazis to have hidden millions of Jews between the end of 1941 to the end of the war, so that they do not appear on any document, or could be liberated from any camp or ghetto. You cannot provide an evidenced answer to the topic question, because there is no evidence of mass departures of the majority of people sent to the death camps and their subsequent resettlement and liberation at the end of the war.
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Post by Nessie on May 29, 2023 10:59:35 GMT
Good, you are getting that you prove your claims, using evidence and have evidenced what happened inside an OT camp. Now, evidence what happened in an AR camp. What a shockingly transparent disingenuous reply. Shameful! How so? How is complementing someone on using evidence to prove their claim and then asking them to evidence something else, shameful and disingenuous?
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Post by been_there on May 29, 2023 12:31:31 GMT
Dear oh dear! 🙄
What part of: ‘attacking the argument used by a person is not attacking the person’ do you not understand and are struggling with?
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Post by been_there on May 29, 2023 14:46:09 GMT
Remember, history is establish by the evidence. ...Evidence determines what happened. 🤣😂 Then ironically by this definition you are inadvertently admitting that the ’holocaust’ mass-gassing narrative is NOT a genuine ’history’. As Holocaust expert and high-priest Ephraim Kaye [ link] has admitted there is NO EVIDENCE at the camps. You have been informed of this, thus proving yet again that you are in denial. Another idiotic, denial of reality. 🙄 Any German or Ukrainian AR camp worker who gave witness testimony refuting the compulsory credo would at best be imprisoned till they die. At the war’s end and soon after, any such camp worker who refuted the mass-gassing mythos — or was likely to say anything that undermined it — would be ’suicided’ in their cell (e.g. Kurt Gerstein), or though healthy would be found dead ’from mysterious ’natural causes’ such as a heart attack (e.g. Auschwitz Kamp Kommandants Richard Bauer and Franz Stangl). We know what happened to Stäglich and Christophersen for publishing their experiences of Auschwitz. And these people weren’t implicated. We are still humiliating, trying and imprisoning octogenarian and elder Germans for innocent camp-worker activities. The dishonesty or stupidity required to try to pass this nonsense excuse off I find staggering. You are excelling yourself — even by your standards — in utter drivel. Any Jewish witness who said anything refuting this compulsory belief-system would be persecuted, physcally attacked, ex-communicated and would face death threats. As happened to Joseph Ginsburg. Any civilian witness who refuted this anti-German libel would also be persecuted, hounded, ostracised, imprisoned, exiled and their life would be destroyed. As happened to many, many civilians such as the ex-camp inmate Paul Rassinier, right up to recent times with people who weren’t even alive but have published EVIDENCE refuting or undermining the quasi-religous mass-gassing mythology, e.g. Ernst Zündel, Germar Rudolf, Vincent Reynoard, Henri Roques, Prof Hayward, Prof. Antony Hall, Ursula Haverbeck, etc., etc., etc.
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