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Post by Nessie on Jun 26, 2022 8:10:36 GMT
Nessie wrote: No, you're misusing my figures. The totenlager/death camp which contained the murder facilities and the graves was only one third of the 13-17 hectares claimed for the entire camp. The totenlager could have been from 4.3 (4.33) to 5.7 (5.66) hectares. You have calculated that 4.5 hectares of space was needed for the graves and stockpile. The estimate of a 13 hectare camp is wrong, it is 17 hectares, so that means 5.66 hectares dedicated to the Totenlager, into which the 4.5 hectares fits. The various prisoner/staff plans of TII have more than one pit in the Lazarette. Geophysics and the 1944 aerial photo evidence more than one pit. That means the total camp area where pits were located is now 7 hectares. I have pointed out that 5.7 minus 4.5 is 1.2 hectares or 3 US football pitches worth of space for walkways between the graves and the gas chambers and barracks. You refuse to acknowledge that. You need to include the Lazarette when calculating space, because it contained some of the mass graves total area. You can squirm all you want, your figure of 4.5 hectares to somehow fit inside 17 hectares, is clearly physically possible. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 26, 2022 8:30:45 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Give the dimensions for Treblinka. That's for the camp inside the fencing. Not an area that includes the alleged tank traps.
Your maps show that the murder facilities inside the totenlager used up a minimum of one fourth of the available space. That's from the maps YOU linked to. What can't you understand about that?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 26, 2022 10:31:24 GMT
Nessie wrote: Give the dimensions for Treblinka. That's for the camp inside the fencing. Not an area that includes the alleged tank traps. Your maps show that the murder facilities inside the totenlager used up a minimum of one fourth of the available space. That's from the maps YOU linked to. What can't you understand about that? The maps I linked to vary in scale and most are not to any particular scale and are merely representative. They show a spread of graves in both the Totenlager and the Lazarette. A 17 hectare camp can easily fit 4.5 hectares of graves and stockpiled ex. You have realised that, so you are now trying to make the Totenlager as small as possible and you ignore that there were also graves in the Lazarette, so the area that accommodated the graves was both the Totenlager and Lazarette.
Your calculations, the witness, photographic, archaeological, circumstantial and geophysical evidence, all converge to prove that TII contained a number of large pits. Since that is not what you want to hear, you will now lie to yourself that the graves could not fit. You are only fooling yourself.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 26, 2022 10:55:48 GMT
I see that been-there is repeating Turnagain's claims in his censored section of the forum; rodoh.info/post/9216/threadAnyone who reads that will ask, why can 4.5 hectares of graves and stockpile not fit inside a camp that is 17 hectares? Anyone who knows even basic details about TII will ask, why is the Lazaertte not part of the calculations, since it had some of the mass graves? |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 26, 2022 11:56:27 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie goes for one of his "famous" sly lies. The totenlager wasn't 17 hectares or 13 hectares for that matter. According to the conventional narrative the totenlager was one third of the area of the Treblinka camp. Also according to the conventional narrative the murder facilities, the gas chambers etc. and the graves were inside the totenlager. Nessie is trying to obfuscate that with his claim that the entire area of the camp was available for digging graves.
Here we have Nessie backing up like bad plumbing over his own link. The complete maps that are shown by "Death Camps" all show that totenlager was about one third of the entire camp and the murder facilities took up at least one fourth of the area of the totenlager. Nessie is now sputtering about the maps not being to scale but can't come up with an actual refutation of the maps that he linked to at "Death Camps".
The lazarette/hospital had one pit for burning the cadavers of those who were incapable of walking to the alleged gas chambers. Nessie is simply trying to further obfuscate the fact that there simply wasn't enough room in the totenlager for the alleged murder facilities and the graves that would be necessary to accommodate ~725,000 cadavers.
That's for graves dug by the M&H dragline that was limited to ~36 cubic meters of ex per meter of grave. Nessie has his mystery machine waiting in the wings but is going with the M&H dragline scenario for now.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 26, 2022 12:08:36 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie goes for one of his "famous" sly lies. The totenlager wasn't 17 hectares or 13 hectares for that matter. I have never claimed the Totenlager was 17 or 13 hectares. The camp as a whole was 17 hectares. Which makes it 5.66 hectares. No, the conventional narrative is that there were also graves in the Lazarette. It was about 2 hectares, which means 7.66 hectares are available for graves, stockpile, the gas chambers, worker barracks and the barracks in the Lazarette used to store the stolen property. The Totenlager being one third, makes it 5.66 hectares. Then add on the space used in the Lazarette for the graves there. You calculated the mass graves and stockpiled ex to be 4.53 hectares. That fits into the 5.66 hectares of the Totenlager, and since at least one grave was actually in the Lazarette, there was even more space in the Totenlager for the bulk of the mass graves, the stockpiled ex, the gas chambers and Sonderkommando barracks. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 26, 2022 12:44:04 GMT
The lazarette had one pit for burning cadavers. The 4.53 hectares is the grave space required. That doesn't include the top cover for those graves. Neither do you account for any space between the graves or the space necessary for access to the graves. The grave space was also calculated as one continuous grave, not a series of graves inside the totenlager. The 4.53 hectares is the very basic space required for the 725,000 cadavers ONLY. What can't you understand about that?
From "Death Camps" numerous maps including the official narrative's map used in the Stangl trial it's shown that a minimum of one fourth of the totenlager was used for the murder facilities. There's no way to calculate the number of graves. There's no way to determine how much top cover was used for the graves so no way to calculate the total cubic content of the graves. What IS known is that the totenlager wasn't large enough to accommodate both the murder facilities and the graves. Rather than dispute that you should perhaps look at ways to reduce the number of cadavers that were supposedly buried at Treblinka.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 26, 2022 13:10:39 GMT
The lazarette had one pit for burning cadavers. It had mass graves for people who had supposedly been taken for medical treatment but were shot. Witnesses, the 1944 aerial photo and geophysics evidenced more than one mass grave. You keep on ignoring that 5.66 hectares minus 4.53 hectares leaves 1.13 hectares, which is roughly the size of 3 US football fields worth of space to accommodate the space between the graves, the gas chambers and the barracks. You constantly edit that out from your replies. You calculated 18,120m2 for the graves, which is 1.8 hectares and 27,180m2 for the stockpile, which is 2.7 hectares, total 4.5 hectares. It does not matter if the 1.8 hectares for the graves is made up of 10 graves at 0.18 hectares each, or as 5 graves or whatever, the total is still the same. You have calculated there is easily enough space inside the camp for the mass graves. The Stangl trial map has no scale and is merely representative. All the maps and plans of the camp are either representative, or involve estimations. The main facts that are important is that the entire camp was 17 hectares, the Totenlager was around 5.66 hectares, the Lazarett was around 2 hectares and the space needed for graves and stockpiled earth was 4.53 hectares, so it is easy to see how that would fit, leaving space for the other buildings, fences, walkways etc. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 26, 2022 13:33:56 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Horse frocky.
Nessie keeps ignoring that the 4.53 hectares is for the grave space ONLY. He also ignores the fact that one forth of the totenlager's area is taken up by the alleged murder facilities. He completely ignores the fact that the totenlager wasn't large enough to accommodate both the murder facilities and the graves.
Get back to me when you get a grip on the reality of the 4.53 hectares being the basic space required for the burial of 725,000 cadavers and that one fourth of the area of the totenlager was taken up by the murder equipment. You're pretense of the lazarette having multiple graves and 4.53 hectares was the total area for the graves/stockpiles is tiresome.
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Post by Nessie on Jun 26, 2022 13:53:08 GMT
Nessie wrote: Horse frocky. No, evidence that annoys you! You said graves and stockpile. You said "That's 18,120 square meters of grave" and "Multiply height and length and the stockpile of ex will total 27,180 square meters and a total of 45,300 square meters or 4.53 hectares." Liar. You repeatedly edit out that there was space equivalent to three US football pitches to accommodate the walkways, gas chambers and barracks. A camp of 17 hectares, where a third was the Totenlager, means 5.6 hectares. You calculated 4.53 hectares for the graves and stockpile, which leaves 3 US football pitches of space for walkways, the gas chmabers and a barracks. I just did. Get back to me when you want to discuss the 3 US football pitches worth of space left over for the gas chambers, walkways and a barracks. Show your evidence it had one grave. You said "We know that approximately 725,000 cadavers were claimed to have been buried at Treblinka. At 8 cadavers per cubic meter, a very generous estimate to account for children and compression, we will need 90,625 cubic meters of grave space to accommodate the 725,000 cadavers. That's grave space and doesn't account for any top cover for the graves. From that it's seen that the 4 meter by 8 meter grave would necessarily be 2.3 kilometers (2265 meters) long. That's 18,120 square meters of grave.
Then we have the area of the stockpile. At 6 meters tall and an angle of repose of 45 degrees for damp sand the stockpile will have to be 12 meters wide including fluff. Multiply height and length and the stockpile of ex will total 27,180 square meters and a total of 45,300 square meters or 4.53 hectares." |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 26, 2022 14:38:02 GMT
Nessie can't seem to comprehend that 4.53 hectares was the space required for the burials and the stockpile ONLY. What can't you understand about ONLY? Do you need a dictionary definition?
Neither can he comprehend that one fourth of 5.7 hectares equals 1.425 hectares. 5.66 minus 1.425 equals 4.235 and 4.235 is less than the minimum grave space, 4.53 hectares, needed for the cadavers. Why can't you understand that your "three football pitches" isn't relevant to that?
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Post by Nessie on Jun 26, 2022 15:09:07 GMT
Nessie can't seem to comprehend that 4.53 hectares was the space required for the burials and the stockpile ONLY. What can't you understand about ONLY? Do you need a dictionary definition? I have had to remind you that!!! You act as if 1.425 hectares is the proven amount of space that is needed for a barracks, a gas chambers and space between the graves. The three football pitches is a reference to the 5.7 hectare Totenlager minus the 4.5 hectares of graves and stockpile, which is 1.2 hectares. Prove a barracks, a gas chambers and space to walk between the graves cannot be done in 1.2 hectares and instead it needs 1.4 hectares. The 1.2 hectares, or three US football pitches, is easily enough space for one barracks, a gas chambers and space between the graves. A barracks at A-B was 35.4m by 11m, or 389.4m2, or 0.039 of a hectare. The gas chambers, say at twice the size of a barracks is 0.078 hectares, total for the two is 0.117 hectares. Subtract that from 1.2 hectares and that leaves 1.08 hectare for space around the graves. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 26, 2022 15:24:10 GMT
Nessie pretends that he doesn't understand the meaning of the word "ONLY". Whether it's pretense or stupidity, sell it down the street.
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mrolonzo
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Post by mrolonzo on Jun 26, 2022 15:37:31 GMT
Yeah, and it is part of a consistent delusional disregard for reality. If We followed this delusional approach to reality then the โBirmingham sixโ would have died in prison for crimes it was later proved that they never committed. The only evidence against the Birmingham Six, was circumstantial and false confessions. The evidence against the Nazis was far more substantial, with multiple witnesses, documents, physical, archaeological and circumstantial evidence. PLUS, the Nazis always admitted to their crimes, which the Birmingham Six did not. Your analogy is false, because of the very different levels of evidencing and circumstances.
It is the responsibility of an accused person to point to exculpatory evidence in an investigation. If someone has evidence that proves they are innocent and they sit on that evidence and don't tell anyone about it, then that is idiocy on their part. If the Nazis had exculpatory evidence, since they were not idiots, they would have revealed it and not hidden it.
There is no conclusive physical, archeological or documentary evidence for the holocaust. Which is why you don't even try to defend the central claims. Pressac did the major work in evidencing the claims, but you don't even try to defend him. |
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Post by mrolonzo on Jun 26, 2022 15:40:02 GMT
Nazgul wrote: Nessie is back to his claim that proving the falsity of an accusation is insufficient. The defense of the accused must also present evidence for an alternate scenario. Mass gassings are evidenced sufficiently to prove they happened.
There is no alternative event that is evidenced and proven to have happened.
Your attempt to portray yourself as defence council for the Nazis fails, because they admitted to their crimes, because they had no exculpatory evidence to prove something else happened. If TII was a transit camp, when interviewed, the Nazis would have described mass arrivals and a process leading to mass departures. An innocent person will point to exculpatory evidence, so that investigators will see there is another line of investigation. The Nazis had ample opportunity to prove the claims being made against them were false. They could have let independent observers into the AR camps on 1942-3. They could have left the camps intact for future investigations. They could have kept the camp documents and taken photos of what was happening.
If someone is accused of something and that person has exculpatory evidence, it is up to them to present that evidence to investigators, which would stop the investigation in its tracks and the claim would never even get to court.
Mass gassings are not sufficiently evidenced. Especially in light of the technical and documentary studies done. Which is why you have no ability to advance your claim here or anywhere. |
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