Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 29, 2022 5:51:05 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Uh-huh, that some people died who were being transferred en masse from cities through a transit camp to various destinations should die during wartime evacuations is "illogical". It's impossible for any of them to be aged, infirm or diseased. According to Nessie, that is.
Name and quote a witness who claimed that he or others assisted in digging the graves.
The stretch is that NO witnesses claimed that the gas chambers were vented and ALL of the witnesses claimed that the chambers were hermetically sealed. Wiernik claimed that he and other sonderkommandos built the new gas chambers so would have been familiar by necessity of knowing about the venting system. Your claim that no witness had the opportunity to be aware of a venting system is horse frocky.
Those graves would have to be 4.5 meters deep. It was impossible for the unaided M&H dragline to dig such pits. How many times do you have to be told that the M&H was limited to about 32 cubic meters per meter of excavation?
There are NO photos of 3,000 cadavers being stacked on a grate 1.5X30 meters and being cremated at either Orhrdruff or Dresden. Just another weasel dodge from Nessie.
If that's the case why don't the Hindus use that method to cremate their dead? It would conserve wood. Why isn't that method used to cremate culled animals? Then we have a "what if" the witnesses were just exaggerating about the amount of wood used to cremate the cadavers. We have another "what if" for the Germans secretly shipping hundreds of tons of firewood to Treblinka. Given enough false assumptions and "what ifs" Nessie can "prove" anything.
I'm not arguing anything. I'm asking you to name and quote one alleged witness to the homicidal events that allegedly took place at Treblinka that doesn't require your endless litany of excuses and "what ifs" to "explain" what they meant.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 29, 2022 5:56:42 GMT
Nessie wrote:
For the 1,001th time, you don't have any conclusive evidence that ~860,000 (or more) Jews were gassed and cremated at Treblinka.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 29, 2022 7:30:40 GMT
Nessie wrote: Uh-huh, that some people died who were being transferred en masse from cities through a transit camp to various destinations should die during wartime evacuations is "illogical". It's impossible for any of them to be aged, infirm or diseased. According to Nessie, that is. Name and quote a witness who claimed that he or others assisted in digging the graves. I made that point previously and you ignored it. No witness was there from the start and none were involved in digging the mass graves. They all arrived later in 1942. Some describe excavators working, which suggests graves were dug, filled and then the next one was dug. That no witness knew much about the excavations, does not mean there were no excavations. Your inability to think logically is why you fall for denial. Rubbish. There is no reason why witnesses, whose main concern was to stay alive, starving, overworked and traumatised, would want to, let alone risk investigating the workings of the gas chambers to figure out how pressure issues were dealt with. Wiernik was a joiner and labourer. He makes no mention of working on the pipes and engine, which would need technical knowledge. He also mentions a roof cap, which may have been the vent you claim the Nazis forget to instal!!! Your "what ifs" are ridiculous. Your what if the M&H dragline was the only excavator and there was no ancillary equipment and the Nazis had limited ability to dig pits is ridiculous. Fact is, there was space for huge mass graves in the Totenlager. Those pyres were smaller. So what? Your what if the Nazis could not work out how to make a smaller pyre bigger is ridiculous. I doubt Hindus had access to the metal rails needed, when they first started cremations centuries, if not longer ago. Your what if the Nazis could not work out how to get wood delivered to the camp is utterly ridiculous. Your constant use of the argument from incredulity, despite all the explanations as to why it is a logical fallacy and should not be used to try and conclude anything, is why you have fallen for denial.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 29, 2022 9:42:47 GMT
Nessie wrote:
What is illogical about people dying during a mass population transfer during wartime? Why are you assuming that they all arrived hale and hearty at the transit camps?
You are the one who claimed that the sonderkommandos helped dig the graves. I asked you to name a witness who assisted in digging the graves. What the hell does that have to do with whether or not the graves existed?
There's no "what ifs" about the claims that the M&H mB dragline from T-I was used to dig the graves. Nobody claimed that auxiliary equipment was used to aid the dragline in digging the graves. The models of the camp explicitly show the ex being piled alongside the graves. YOU are the one claiming, "what if" there was auxiliary equipment besides the dragline used to dig the graves.
Wiernik and the sonderkommandos BUILT the effing gas chamber. They would, by definition, know that it was vented. Your claim that they just didn't "notice" such a detail is just more bullsh!t.
The pile of cadavers on the 30 meter grate would have to be 40 corpses high and that's if the pile of cadavers was a rectangle. What kind of supporting structure would be necessary to keep such a pile from collapsing? The claim is idiotic. Such a contraption for cremating hundreds of thousands of cadavers is ludicrous. Your claim that the eeevul but ever so clever Narzis would know how to accomplish that is a FAIL.
Railroads have been around for about 200 years. Plenty of time for the Hindus to tumble to the fact that cadavers can be cremated using grates built with railroad rails and nothing but twigs or brush for fuel.
Aha! The eeevul but ever so clever Narzis to the rescue. "WHAT IF" the eeevul Narzis knew how to secretly ship hundreds of tons of firewood to Treblinka?
Nessie then drivels on about how any claims that contradict his litany of excuses and his "what ifs" is an "argument from incredulity". Right, and the little boy rode his tricycle to the moon.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 29, 2022 14:43:25 GMT
Nessie wrote: What is illogical about people dying during a mass population transfer during wartime? Why are you assuming that they all arrived hale and hearty at the transit camps? I am not assuming that, there is evidence people arrived dead, which makes your claim of no mass graves ever more odd. I pointed out your "what if?" the Sonderkommandos were not used to assist digging the graves is an assumption and have repeatedly told you that not knowing exactly how the graves were dug tells us nothing about whether they existed or not. Whether there are mass graves at TII is determined by evidence, not what you think could have happened. You are claiming "what if" no ancillary equipment was used. Helping to build something does not mean knowing every detail about a building's design. The Jews were the slave labour, not the designers. You use arguments from incredulity and then complain when I point out you use them! Why don't you use evidence to prove your claims? The evidence you need to prove no mass graves of c735,000 would come from witnesses who worked at the camp, archaeology and geophysics.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 29, 2022 16:53:30 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Hunh? What the hell are you on about? I said that graves existed at Treblinka for the people who died in transit or while at Treblinka. There are numerous reports of multiple deaths during transports. I doubt that the Germans would have afforded the Jews the luxury of individual graves and funerals.
Name and quote the witness who claimed that sonderkommandos were used to help dig the graves. Guess what? There aren't any such witnesses. "Assumptions" and "what if" my shiny hiney.
Precisely. The people who built the gas chamber would have had to see the plans for the building. They didn't just build whatever they felt like and then asked the Germans, "Is that what you had in mind?".
You don't even know the definition of an argument from incredulity let alone how to apply such a definition.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 29, 2022 18:44:27 GMT
Nessie wrote: Hunh? What the hell are you on about? I said that graves existed at Treblinka for the people who died in transit or while at Treblinka. There are numerous reports of multiple deaths during transports. I doubt that the Germans would have afforded the Jews the luxury of individual graves and funerals. Which means there are mass graves at TII. Where do you say they were located in the camp? You assume the camp labour force was never used for grave digging. Why is that? Labourers are told, lay bricks there to such and such a height, plaster that wall, tile that wall, lift those beams onto the roof, they are not given design instructions. Every time you claim something is too incredible to believe, you are using the argument from incredulity. effectiviology.com/argument-from-incredulity/"The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone concludes that since they canโt believe something is true, then it must be false" When you argue that the M&H dragline cannot dig graves as big as described by the witnesses, therefore the witnesses lied, you taking what the witnesses said in a very literal form, so that you can argue their claim is unbelievable. You ignore no witness said it was an M&H dragline and you assume no ancillary equipment was used. You make the frankly bizarre claim the Nazis could not dig large pits in a camp that was next to a quarry. You are constructing an argument, where you want to disbelieve the witnesses and because you do not believe them, you then claim they are lying. You just cannot believe what the witnesses said is true, therefore their claims must be false. Your inability to recognise your use of that fallacy, is your downfall.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 30, 2022 5:03:08 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Really? Who knew? Oh, wait a minute. I DID say that that there were likely to be mass graves at Treblinka for the deportees who died in transit or at Treblinka.
I don't say where those graves are located. Nobody knows. Perhaps deportees were buried in the T-I cemetery. Haimi found one mass grave at Sobibor that contained six bodies.
No alleged eyewitness at Treblinka described how sonderkommandos dug graves. Not a peep from any of them about a sonderkommando workforce digging graves.
Nessie makes up a new "what if" to suit his fantasies about the gas chamber.
I DON'T believe that it's "too incredible" to believe that the M&H mB dragline was limited in digging an excavation. It's a matter of mathematics and photographic evidence that proves the limitation of the M&H dragline. You, being an innumerate fool, can't comprehend the mathematics and simply ignore the photographic evidence. Stating that the M&H dragline was limited to about 32 cubic meters of ex per meter of excavation is a FACT, not a matter of belief or disbelief. You simply ignore all known facts about the dragline, that it was thirteen feet high, weighed 47 tons and had a boom length of ~35 feet and pronounce all of that to be, "an argument from incredulity". For it's time it was one hell of a machine. I've shown videos of a M&H mB dragline still in use today.
Using those FACTS about the M&H dragline to calculate the size of the possible graves at Treblinka doesn't even come close to "an argument from incredulity". Nobody is saying that the graves at Treblinka don't exist just because they don't believe that there were any graves at Treblinka. You, of course, simply ignore the facts and shriek, "argument from incredulity".
That a M&H dragline, unaided by any auxiliary equipment, is limited to about 32 cubic meters of ex per meter of excavation isn't a matter of "belief" or "disbelief". It's a FACT. What can't you understand about that? Why do you continue to claim that it's an "argument from incredulity"? It would seem that your argument of "it ain't so" is the argument from incredulity. Do you have any reason for disbelieving that the M&H dragline has a limited capacity to excavate other than, "I don't believe it"?
Rajchman claimed that the graves were 12X30X50 meters. That's 360 cubic meters of ex per meter of grave. It's over ten (10) times the capacity of the M&H dragline. You claim that he just "overestimated".
Rosenberg claimed that the graves were 6X15X120 meters or 90 cubic meters of ex per meter of grave. That's almost three (3) times the capacity of the M&H dragline. Another "overestimation" according to Nessie. Rajchman claimed that blood was flammable and Rosenberg claimed that the gas chambers were hermetically sealed. According to Nessie every single witness, not just one or two of them but ALL of the witnesses were "mistaken", "over/under estimating, "exaggerating" and so on with his litany of excuses so they couldn't be lying. Just some (heh-heh) minor mistakes.
Gee, do ya' mean, "what if" the M&H dragline wasn't used to dig the graves? "What if" there was auxiliary equipment used to haul away the ex? Nessie then simply lies about me claiming that the Germans couldn't dig any graves at Treblinka.
Uh-huh, sure thing. You betcha', Nessie.
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Post by been_there on Jul 30, 2022 6:08:18 GMT
...I've never said that no mass graves existed at Treblinka. People could have died en route to Treblinka or while they were there from age, infirmities, accidents or diseases. They were no doubt buried in or around Treblinka. This has been explained to her numerous times. Alas, to no avail. Such simple arguments and points just canโt be comprehended by her. She is trapped. She canโt accept any refutation of the H belief-system, no matter how fact-based, no matter how logical, no matter how obvious. That is why arguments based on facts, logic and common-sense make no impression on her.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jul 30, 2022 7:39:30 GMT
Nessie wrote: Really? Who knew? Oh, wait a minute. I DID say that that there were likely to be mass graves at Treblinka for the deportees who died in transit or at Treblinka. I don't say where those graves are located. Nobody knows. Perhaps deportees were buried in the T-I cemetery. Haimi found one mass grave at Sobibor that contained six bodies. What would be the most reliable way to find out where those graves are? Does no witness mentioning the use of labourers to dig the original graves therefore mean no labourers were used? Witnesses mention the use of labourers during the exhumation of the mass graves. Your what if, is what if the Nazis gave technical details and tours of the workings of the gas chambers? Why would they do that? I am describing the normal division of labour between labourers and those responsible for the design and construction. Your argument from incredulity is based on your assumption that the M&H dragline was used, that the graves were as big as witnesses estimated and that no ancillary equipment was used. All you have done is prove that unaided, the M&H dragline cannot dig pits as large as witnesses estimated they were. You then try to use that fact to prove there are no mass graves anywhere near as large as the witnesses claim. Anyone with any sense of logic, will see the logical flaw in your argument. Your incredulity makes numerous assumptions. OK, so you cannot work out how it was done. That does not logically mean therefore it was not done. This is basic logic and you cannot understand that! That the Germans had it well within their capability to dig huge mass graves, is why your argument that you find the witness descriptions unbelievable is a logical flaw. Witnesses are not reliable when it comes to estimating size and describing how they think something worked. You cannot use them to reliably determine if something happened or not. That is why the Poles examined all the AR camps sites in 1945, to find evidence to see if what the witnesses claimed was correct or not. It is why site examinations continued in the post Soviet era. Physically examination of the sites, not a literal examination of witness descriptions of the sites, is the only way to reliably determine what is at those places.
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Post by been_there on Jul 30, 2022 8:34:56 GMT
What is impossible appears to be having a sane, reasonable discussion with cultish believers in a pseudo-historical narrative that requires suppression and censorship of dissenting views. As we see here: rodoh.info/post/10059 ๐
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jul 30, 2022 10:07:51 GMT
Nessie wrote: Which has absolutely nothing to do with his claim that I've said there were no mass graves at Treblinka. Nessie weasel dodges again.
Obviously, use GPR to locate the supposed grave(s and then excavate it/them. Nessie goes for another "what if". The dragline exhumed the bodies. The sonderkommandos carried the bodies from the gravesite to the grates. Nobody claimed that the sonderkommandos retrieved the bodies from the graves. How do you come up with such irrelevant bullsh!t? The Germans most likely just gave the plans to the new gas chamber to Wiernik or whoever was supervising the construction and said, "Build this building here". That's presupposing that the Germans built any gas chambers at all at Treblinka. The consensus is that the M&H dragline was used to dig the graves. Even you have conceded that it was used to excavate the graves. It's claimed that the dragline from T-I was used to dig the graves and the draglines at T-I were both M&H. If you have an alternate theory for how the graves were supposedly dug then let's hear it. Nobody claimed that any auxiliary equipment was used to move the ex from the gravesites and the models of Treblinka show that the ex was piled next to the graves. No assumptions and no fallacies. Yes, I've proven that the alleged graves would have to be much smaller than those claimed by the eyewitnesses. So what is the logical flaw in my calculations? Why is that an "argument from incredulity". Another weasel dodge from Nessie. That has absolutely nothing to do with my claim that Nessie has to provide excuses/what ifs for every single witness to the homicidal purpose of Treblinka. Every. Last. One. Nessie can't name and quote one witness who gives a truthful account of the gas/vacuum chambers, the burials, the exhumations and the cremation of the alleged ~860,000 Jews supposedly killed at Treblinka. Uh-huh, using any and all of the resources at their disposal, the Germans could have dug a pit of any size they wished. Another weasel dodge by Nessie. Nessie trots out his "what ifs" and litany of excuses for the so-called witnesses. When are you going to name and quote a witness who tells a complete and believable story of Treblinka as an extermination facility? Oh, wait a minute, no such witness exists. Uh-huh, but TPTB and the Jews won't allow that.
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Post by been_there on Jul 30, 2022 10:29:41 GMT
Hunh? What the hell are you on about? I said that graves existed at Treblinka for the people who died in transit or while at Treblinka. There are numerous reports of multiple deaths during transports. I doubt that the Germans would have afforded the Jews the luxury of individual graves and funerals. You don't even know the definition of an argument from incredulity let alone how to apply such a definition. Nessie still thinks she is arguing against denial of any mass-graves at all at T2. It is a form of strawman dodge. That she is still using it after it has been repeatedly explained that no-one denies mass-graves there, is revealing. ๐ She canโt comprehend that she is actually denying the reality of the lack of empirical evidence showing any ground disturbance requisite of the claimed 725,000 corpses buried then disinterred there.
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Post by Nessie on Jul 30, 2022 14:10:26 GMT
Nessie wrote: Which has absolutely nothing to do with his claim that I've said there were no mass graves at Treblinka. Nessie weasel dodges again.
Obviously, use GPR to locate the supposed grave(s and then excavate it/them. You dispute the existing evidence of GPR and excavations, so why would you accept more GPR and excavations? Answer the question. Labourers were used in conjunction with excavators when the mass graves were opened up and bodies exhumed. So, why do you assume they would not use labourers in conjuction with excavators to dig the original graves? Are you claiming the excavators lifted the bodies from the graves and deposited them next to the graves? If so, who said that? In any case, why could an excavator not lift earth out of a grave as it is being dug and then the labourers move the stockpile? Wiernik never said he was given the plans. Jews were labourers, to do what they were told, your "what if?" they were given the plans and told to get on with it, is drivel. Excavators, labourers and ancillary equipment was used to dig large pits. I do not know the details, by that does not matter. Nobody claimed that any auxiliary equipment was used to move the ex from the gravesites and the models of Treblinka show that the ex was piled next to the graves. No assumptions and no fallacies.[/quote] Nobody claimed to have been given the plans for a gas chamber and was told to build it, but you happily say what if that happened. Just because you cannot work out how it was done, with your calculations based around what an M&H dragline is capable of, does not therefore mean all the witnesses lied and no mass graves for hundreds of thousands. It is very arrogant of you to think that because you cannot work out how the graves were dug, therefore no one else can. That is the nature of witness evidence. No witness would think to cover every single minute detail. Investigations are concerned with what happened, not how it happened. The investigations were happy with witness claims excavators were used to dig large pits, because that is totally possible and believable. Only deniers want to know precisely what excavator was used, the exact dimensions of the pits and what happened to the ex and stockpiles. You dodge that since the Nazis could dig any sized pit they wanted, that the witnesses were not expected to give a blow by blow account of the excavations and investigators were happy with basic descriptions of excavators were used to dig large pits. There have been multiple site examinations of all the AR camps sites, with two at TII. They have found physical evidence of large areas of excavated ground and buried remains. That evidence proves the Nazis were cremating and burying large numbers of people.
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Post by Nessie on Jul 30, 2022 14:15:43 GMT
Hunh? What the hell are you on about? I said that graves existed at Treblinka for the people who died in transit or while at Treblinka. There are numerous reports of multiple deaths during transports. I doubt that the Germans would have afforded the Jews the luxury of individual graves and funerals. You don't even know the definition of an argument from incredulity let alone how to apply such a definition. Nessie still thinks she is arguing against denial of any mass-graves at all at T2. It is a form of strawman dodge. That she is still using it after it has been repeatedly explained that no-one denies mass-graves there, is revealing. ๐ She canโt comprehend that she is actually denying the reality of the lack of empirical evidence showing any ground disturbance requisite of the claimed 725,000 corpses buried then disinterred there. I am a he, you have been told that. Grow up. I am arguing against the claim that there are no mass graves for hundreds of thousands of bodies, you know that, but you insist on making strawman claims to the contrary.
What "empirical evidence" is lacking, to show ground disturbances that resulted from mass graves for 725,000 corpses, and the subsequent exhumation, cremation and reburial of those remains?
The witness, photographic, archaeological, forensic and geophysical evidence that has been presented by historians and archaeologists is proof of mass burials and it is not clear why you say it is lacking.
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