Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 24, 2022 6:04:46 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie declares that corroboration is all that's needed as a proof. Let's take a look at my claim that "what is possible" takes precedent over corroboration. Nessie claims that the M&H draglines could have dug "large pits" for the graves. The size of the graves as described by the alleged eyewitnesses don't matter due to "what if" the witnesses "mis-estimated" the size of the graves.
We know that the M&H mB dragline (the larger one) could build a stockpile of ex no more than six meters high. That's confirmed by both calculations and photographic evidence of the M&H mB at work in the T-I quarry. IOW, there's no question about it's capabilities. We also know that the fluff (gain) from excavated material can be anywhere from 10% to 25% depending on the material. Let's assume no more than a 15% fluff for the sandy soil at Treblinka.
We know from the calculation and the photographic evidence that the M&H mB could dig a grave no larger than 32 cubic meters of ex per meter of grave. That presents us with the possible sizes of the grave ranging from 1 meter deep and 32 meters wide and 32 meters deep and 1 meter wide. For convenience we can assume a grave 4 meters deep and 8 meters wide for every meter of grave. Pits is pits and 32 cubic meters equals 32 cubic meters. None of the above is an argument from incredulity or any other kind of an argument. It's just a fact that must be taken into consideration. The M&H mB can dig a pit and stockpile the ex from a pit 4 meters deep, 8 meters wide and as long as you want to continue digging.
We know that approximately 725,000 cadavers were claimed to have been buried at Treblinka. At 8 cadavers per cubic meter, a very generous estimate to account for children and compression, we will need 90,625 cubic meters of grave space to accommodate the 725,000 cadavers. That's grave space and doesn't account for any top cover for the graves. From that it's seen that the 4 meter by 8 meter grave would necessarily be 2.3 kilometers (2265 meters) long. That's 18,120 square meters of grave.
Then we have the area of the stockpile. At 6 meters tall and an angle of repose of 45 degrees for damp sand the stockpile will have to be 12 meters wide including fluff. Multiply height and length and the stockpile of ex will total 27,180 square meters and a total of 45,300 square meters or 4.53 hectares. That's for one continuous grave. If each grave was 100 meters long then 23 (22.65) graves would be required. Bear in mind that leaves no room for walkways or wagons/light rail to deliver the cadavers to the graves.
That doesn't leave much room for the old gas chamber, the new gas chamber, the well, the pyres and the sonnderkommando's barracks. Neither does it account for why CS-C couldn't find those 2.3 kilometers of graves.
None of the above is in any way an argument. It's just using what is KNOWN about the draglines, the size of the alleged murder area and the alleged number of victims. If you can find a flaw in my calculations then by all means let's see it. If proven I'll willingly acknowledge.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 24, 2022 8:45:14 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie declares that corroboration is all that's needed as a proof. Lie. I have said that corroboration is the most reliable and credible method for assessing truthfulness and for reaching an accurate conclusion. Obviously, if a claim is something that is physically impossible, then it cannot have happened. The problem you ignore is that the claims are of things that the Germans were perfectly capable of engineering and constructing. That is why your boy cycled to the moon analogy is flawed. You now go on to claim that the best method for assessing physical possibility, is how witnesses describe how they think something was done. You use a logically flawed, unreliable method for assessing witness evidence. That is an argument from incredulity. Just because you cannot work out how it was done, does not therefore mean it cannot have been done. Fact is, of course it was physically possible for the Nazis to dig large pits many meters long, wide and deep, in a camp next to a quarry! It is also evidenced to have happened and there is no evidence something else happened. We can argue about what excavator dug pits what size and how many bodies could fit all day long. You make assumptions that it was a certain type of excavator, and that a certain amount of bodies fits in a certain area and that all the ex was piled in a certain way inside the camp. Your assumed calculations are not evidence. They are merely how you justify to yourself that your argument from incredulity is correct. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 24, 2022 9:19:12 GMT
LOL! Nessie has no rebuttal and can only sputter, "argument from incredulity". Tell me, Nessie, with what do you disagree? That about 725,000 deportees were gassed and buried before the order to exhume and cremate them came down in early March, 1943? Are you going to deny the calculation and the photographic evidence for the capabilities of the M&H dragline? What facts are you denying, Nessie? Why is using facts an "argument from incredulity"?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 24, 2022 10:08:03 GMT
LOL! Nessie has no rebuttal and can only sputter, "argument from incredulity". Tell me, Nessie, with what do you disagree? That about 725,000 deportees were gassed and buried before the order to exhume and cremate them came down in early March, 1943? Are you going to deny the calculation and the photographic evidence for the capabilities of the M&H dragline? What facts are you denying, Nessie? Why is using facts an "argument from incredulity"? Let's go through your argument.
You are assuming that is the excavator used and that they piled the ex in a cone shaped stockpile with no other equipment or labour to pile the ex.
You are assuming they are the excavators from the quarry and that there was no other equipment there. The ex from the quarry was transported away from it, past TII, so there is no reason why the ex from TII was even retained there.
You are making assumptions, when elsewhere, you condemn the use of assumptions, as coulda woulda, what ifs. Your double standard is noted.
More assumptions. With other equipment and labour the pits could be deeper. The dragline can also dig wider pits, as it is on tracks and can move.
TII was 17 hectares, of which about a third, or 5.6 hectares was dedicated to graves. A hectare is 10,000m2, so 2 hectares covers the actual graves. That is 2 hectares out of a total of 17, where there is 5.6 hectares dedicated to graves. Luckaskiewicz found an area of 2 hectares of disturbed ground in the area where the main mass graves were located by the witnesses.
You are assuming the ex was kept in the camp. There is 3.6 hectares of space for the ex in the area of the camp dedicated to graves. The ex could be piled higher than you say, to fit it in, or some of it was removed.
I have left 11.4 hectares of space for the rest of the camp. The point is that we both have to make assumptions and by making different assumptions, you cannot fit the graves and the ex in the camp and I can. That is why the argument from incredulity you make is a logical fallacy. You make assumptions to argue it would not work. Change those assumptions and it works.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 24, 2022 11:26:17 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Yep, Arad, ARC, CS-C et al. all claimed that the excavators from T-I were used to dig the graves at T-II. In the photos the dragline is building single cone stockpiles and both Wiernik and Laponder show single cone stockpiles in their models. Are you going back to your claim that some mystery machine dug the graves and built the stockpiles of ex? Nobody has mentioned any auxiliary equipment being used at Treblinka. Are you going for a "what if" such equipment was used to move the ex?
Nope, the fluff or gain in volume for compacted material is real. No assumption there. The volume of ex will always be larger than the volume of the area from where it was taken. That's just another fact that you're trying to ignore.
Nope, the M&H dragline could excavate and stockpile the ex from about 32 cubic meters per meter of grave. That's just another fact. Are you now saying that the mystery machine dug the graves at T-II?
It's claimed that the Treblinka site was from 13 to 17 hectares in size. It's also claimed that the murder area including the graves was about one third of that or about 5.7 hectares at most. If the grave were one continuous pit then it would require 18,120 square meters of space. That's for one continuous grave. Can you comprehend that?
I'm assuming nothing. The Wiernik and Laponder models show single cone stockpiles of ex. Nobody claims any auxiliary equipment was used to move the ex out of T-II. Six meter high stockpiles would be the absolute maximum height the M&H dragline could build a stockpile. 4.53 hectares would be the absolute minimum space required for the graves and stockpile. In practice it would require more space due to walkways or other means of getting the cadavers to the graves.
If the M&H dragline was used to dig the graves and build the stockpiles of ex those are facts, Nessie, not "what ifs" or "coulda woulda". Again, are you going back to your claim that some mystery machine dug the graves and stockpiled the ex?
I make no assumptions beyond the 725,000 were gassed and buried before the cremation order was given and that each cubic meter of grave contained eight (8) cadavers. If you have a problem with those assumptions then let's hear them.
It's claimed that the murder area including the graves was in an area fenced off with pine boughs woven into the fencing to prohibit people viewing the murder/burial/cremation area. Some claim that a berm was also built to avoid viewing. In any event the murder/burial area was supposedly about one third of the entire camp. Your claim that the entire camp was available for graves is horse frocky.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 24, 2022 14:14:30 GMT
I make no assumptions beyond the 725,000 were gassed and buried before the cremation order was given and that each cubic meter of grave contained eight (8) cadavers. If you have a problem with those assumptions then let's hear them. You have an odd way of expressing yourself, which is part of your denial. You say you make no assumptions, but then you admit to two assumptions about the numbers buried and how many bodies fit in a cubic meter. Other assumptions you make are that only the M&H dragline was used to dig the pits, the dimensions of those pits, what happened to the ex, that the ex was only stockpiled inside the camp and that the models are accurate representations of the pits and stockpiles. You use your assumptions to construct your argument from incredulity. Because you cannot work out how it was done, you arrogantly assume no one can. You arrogantly presume your assumptions are accurate. You state the total surface area of the graves was 18,120 square meters of grave, which would clearly fit inside a camp that is 170,000m2, where about 57,000m2 was dedicated to graves. You state that a minimum of 45,300 m2 would be needed for the graves and stockpile, so it is clear there is space for that in 57,000m2. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 24, 2022 14:40:39 GMT
What the hell are you on about "no assumptions"? I made two assumptions and asked if you had a problem with either one. I made no other assumptions. It's claimed by authoritative holyhoax sources that the M&H draglines dug and stockpiled the ex from the graves. You claimed that it was possible for the Germans to dig pits that were close to the T-I quarry. That is an inference that they used the equipment from the quarry. That's not an assumption.
I gave the limits for the dimensions of the graves. From a pit one meter deep and 32 meters wide to a pit 32 meters deep and one meter wide. Whatever dimensions used they must not be any larger than 32 cubic meters of ex per meter of grave with no consideration for the fluff. What can't you understand about that?
Whether or not the models were accurate they showed the murder and burial areas of the camp. There's no assumptions about that and the approximate size of the murder and burial area, one third of the total size of the camp. That area was hidden from view with fencing/berms. See Glazar, "Trap With a Green Fence".
Your claim that I used only assumptions for the calculations is bullsh!t.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 24, 2022 14:52:15 GMT
What the hell are you on about "no assumptions"? You said "I make no assumptions...." Then why did you lie about making no assumptions? That is another lie. They have assumed that is the case. There is no evidence those excavators were the ones used. You have gone with their assumptions. It is an assumption, based on an inference. You have assumed how big the graves were to then calculate how much space they would take up. Your calculations are largely based on assumptions, with some knowns. You said "4.53 hectares would be the absolute minimum space required for the graves and stockpile". The camp was 17 hectares with about 5.6 hectares dedicated the grave area, for the graves and stockpile. I can see how 4.53 hectares will fit inside 5.6 hectares. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 24, 2022 15:18:33 GMT
Nessie is trying to derail the subject off the impossibility of the graves being inside the murder/grave area of Treblinka. You can assume that I'm not going along with your horse frocky claims about assumptions. The grave area would have required almost all of the space in the murder/burial area. Deal with it.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 24, 2022 16:10:05 GMT
Nessie is trying to derail the subject off the impossibility of the graves being inside the murder/grave area of Treblinka. You can assume that I'm not going along with your horse frocky claims about assumptions. The grave area would have required almost all of the space in the murder/burial area. Deal with it. You said "4.53 hectares would be the absolute minimum space required for the graves and stockpile".
The camp was 17 hectares with about 5.6 hectares dedicated the grave area, for the graves and stockpile.
I can see how 4.53 hectares will fit inside 5.6 hectares. Why do you think that it is physically impossible to fit 4.53 hectares into 5.6 hectares?
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 24, 2022 23:50:01 GMT
Nessie wrote:
It's claimed that the size of Treblinka was 13-17 hectares so the murder/burial area could be from 4.3 to 5.7 hectares. That's for one continuous grave with no provision for walkways for removing bodies from the gas chamber to the graves or for any space between the multiple graves that would be necessary instead of one continuous grave. That leaves no room for the two gas chambers, the well, the cremation grates and the sonnderkommando barracks. The new gas chamber was at least 280 square meters and the old one was at least 75 square meters with no provision for the unloading aprons.
The fact is that there is insufficient space in the killing/burial area for the graves and the murder equipment. Neither would CS-C have had any trouble locating at least some of those graves.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 25, 2022 7:59:15 GMT
Nessie wrote: It's claimed that the size of Treblinka was 13-17 hectares so the murder/burial area could be from 4.3 to 5.7 hectares. That's for one continuous grave with no provision for walkways for removing bodies from the gas chamber to the graves or for any space between the multiple graves that would be necessary instead of one continuous grave. That leaves no room for the two gas chambers, the well, the cremation grates and the sonnderkommando barracks. The new gas chamber was at least 280 square meters and the old one was at least 75 square meters with no provision for the unloading aprons. The fact is that there is insufficient space in the killing/burial area for the graves and the murder equipment. Neither would CS-C have had any trouble locating at least some of those graves. Even if the graves area was 5.7 hectares in a camp 13 hectares, that leaves plenty of space in the rest of the camp. Your claim of insufficient space has been disproved by your own figures, as 5.7 easily fits into 13, let alone 17.
C S-C located 5 large pits in the area where witnesses said the main mass graves were located, but the majority of that area could not be surveyed due to the trees and memorial at the site.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Jun 25, 2022 8:19:31 GMT
C S-C located 5 large pits in the area where witnesses said the main mass graves were located, but the majority of that area could not be surveyed due to the trees and memorial at the site. This was no doubt near the lazarette where 14f13 victims were dispatched. This is evident at Sobibor so no reason to suggest it did not happen at Treblinka. Who were the witnesses who said that these mass graves were at this location? |
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 25, 2022 8:26:46 GMT
C S-C located 5 large pits in the area where witnesses said the main mass graves were located, but the majority of that area could not be surveyed due to the trees and memorial at the site. This was no doubt near the lazarette where 14f13 victims were dispatched. This is evident at Sobibor so no reason to suggest it did not happen at Treblinka. Who were the witnesses who said that these mass graves were at this location? Witnesses and where they located the main graves and camp layout here;
Turnagain has shown by his own calculations that there was enough space at TII for the mass graves.
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nazgul
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Post by nazgul on Jun 25, 2022 8:31:58 GMT
This was no doubt near the lazarette where 14f13 victims were dispatched. This is evident at Sobibor so no reason to suggest it did not happen at Treblinka. Who were the witnesses who said that these mass graves were at this location? Witnesses and where they located the main graves and camp layout here; Turnagain has shown by his own calculations that there was enough space at TII for the mass graves.
There is a mention of witnesses but no name. There is also the Wiernik map discussed prior with the camp on the Warsaw Bialystok line with north fitting that location correctly. To discuss with certainty the location of anything when the existence of the camp is in doubt is somewhat asinine. |
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