Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 29, 2022 19:59:30 GMT
Camp two, the murder area at Treblinka was supposedly 1.2 hectares, but let's be generous and say that it was 1.5 hectares. Rajchman claimed that there were 11 graves that measured at least 50X30 meters for a total of 16,500 square meters of surface area. 1.5 hectares is 15,000 square meters so just his graves alone are bigger than the entire area of camp II. That doesn't even begin to cover the space that would be required for the attendant stockpiles of ex.
Nessie will now, of course, claim that Rajchman just made a little "mistake" or "mis-estimated" or...something. However, there's always the fail-safe, "The eeevul Narzis knew how to do it". My argument is in the form of, "is it physically possible or not".
Nessie demonstrates his dodging ability by not addressing the issue of the impossibilities of the cremation tales that I spoke of. Nice weasel dodge, Nessie. Too bad that I noticed it.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 30, 2022 9:17:58 GMT
Camp two, the murder area at Treblinka was supposedly 1.2 hectares, but let's be generous and say that it was 1.5 hectares. Rajchman claimed that there were 11 graves that measured at least 50X30 meters for a total of 16,500 square meters of surface area. 1.5 hectares is 15,000 square meters so just his graves alone are bigger than the entire area of camp II. That doesn't even begin to cover the space that would be required for the attendant stockpiles of ex. Nessie will now, of course, claim that Rajchman just made a little "mistake" or "mis-estimated" or...something. However, there's always the fail-safe, "The eeevul Narzis knew how to do it". My argument is in the form of, "is it physically possible or not". Nessie demonstrates his dodging ability by not addressing the issue of the impossibilities of the cremation tales that I spoke of. Nice weasel dodge, Nessie. Too bad that I noticed it. Your first issue is that Rajchman did not say there were 11 graves in that part of the camp. That is how many graves there were in total.
Your second issue is that TII was 17 hectares and the gassing and main grave site took up about a third of that, so just over 5 hectares.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 30, 2022 18:19:18 GMT
Nessie wrote:
It's claimed that the Germans went to great lengths to keep their murders of the Jews secret. Fences with pine boughs woven into them and high berms around the killing area. The Germans were even willing to kill their own, a German woman and her two sons, to keep her from spreading the story of how Jews were being killed en masse at Treblinka. You are saying that even though the Germans were willing to go to such lengths to protect their deeds from the view of any passerby they dug the mass graves willy-nilly around the camp and carried thousands of cadavers to them in full view of anyone who happened to be around the camp. Looks as though another of your knee-jerk contradictions just fell on it's arse, Nessie.
I've read that claim and also a claim that the killing area only took up 1.2 hectares. Be a little more specific, Nessie. Let's see some actual measurements and compare them to the area that would be necessary for Rajchman's mass graves.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 30, 2022 18:53:24 GMT
Nessie wrote: It's claimed that the Germans went to great lengths to keep their murders of the Jews secret. Fences with pine boughs woven into them and high berms around the killing area. The Germans were even willing to kill their own, a German woman and her two sons, to keep her from spreading the story of how Jews were being killed en masse at Treblinka. You are saying that even though the Germans were willing to go to such lengths to protect their deeds from the view of any passerby they dug the mass graves willy-nilly around the camp and carried thousands of cadavers to them in full view of anyone who happened to be around the camp. Looks as though another of your knee-jerk contradictions just fell on it's arse, Nessie. Rajchman either saw the main mass graves and he was told about the graves in the Lazarette, or he saw both, possibly when they were all being exhumed for the bodies to be cremated. I am not doing your work for you, you say the main area for the graves was 1.2 hectares, so show your evidence. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 31, 2022 0:58:50 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Rajchman SAID that there were eleven graves. Seven graves were 50X30 and four were "larger" with at least one large enough to accommodate 250,000 cadavers. That's what was claimed by an alleged eyewitness so quit trying to dodge that. He claimed to have seen the blood of 250,000 Jews who were buried in one grave catch fire and burn for a night and the next day.
OK, let's take a look at the graves and the size of camp II and we'll go with your numbers. Treblinka was 13 hectares and there's also an opinion that it was 17 hectares due to a defensive berm. So, let's go with one third of 13 hectares or 4.5 hectares for camp II. I'll assume that all graves were 50X30 to make the calculations easier. The cubic content of the graves was 18,000 cubic meters. Add the fluff (gain) of 15% and we get 20,700 cubic meters of ex. Assuming that the excavator had no limits on how high if could stack the ex and the ex was piled alongside the grave we have 414 cubic meters of ex per meter of grave. Taking the square root of 414 gives us a height of ~20 (20.3) meters of the stockpile and a width of about 40 meters and a total area of grave plus stockpile of 3,500 square meters.
That gives us a total of 38,500 square meters for just the graves and stockpiles that were 65 feet high. Add 4 meter walkways between the graves and we have a total of 39,580 square meters needed for graves and (improbable) stockpiles. That would leave 5,420 square meters, a little over .5 hectares, available for killing purposes.
That's a very minimalist calculation for the area that would be necessary for the graves and the stockpiles of ex. It doesn't take into account Rajchman's larger graves which would further shrink the space available for the gas chambers, the cremation grates and the barracks for the sonnderkommandos.
It's obvious that Rajchman was lying about there being eleven graves as was Wiernik who claimed that only 5 graves existed which would have insufficient volume for 700,000+ cadavers.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on May 31, 2022 13:44:00 GMT
Nessie wrote: Rajchman SAID that there were eleven graves. Seven graves were 50X30 and four were "larger" with at least one large enough to accommodate 250,000 cadavers. That's what was claimed by an alleged eyewitness so quit trying to dodge that. He claimed to have seen the blood of 250,000 Jews who were buried in one grave catch fire and burn for a night and the next day. I have dodged nothing, I merely pointed out your initial calculation assumed all the graves were in one part of the camp. Which means Rajchman over estimated the size of the graves, which we know from geophysics, which found smaller pits. |
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on May 31, 2022 21:42:36 GMT
Nessie wrote:
Nessie excuses Rajchman's lie with an excuse from his litany of excuses. Are you sure he wasn't just using "emotive language"? Maybe he just "exaggerated" or was "mistaken". Clangers big an small, Nessie excuses them one and all.
Rajchman said eleven graves, Wiernik said five graves and Rosenberg said that the graves were 15 meters wide and 120 meters long but such "minor mistakes" happen.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 1, 2022 9:15:06 GMT
Nessie wrote: Nessie excuses Rajchman's lie with an excuse from his litany of excuses. Are you sure he wasn't just using "emotive language"? Maybe he just "exaggerated" or was "mistaken". Clangers big an small, Nessie excuses them one and all. Rajchman said eleven graves, Wiernik said five graves and Rosenberg said that the graves were 15 meters wide and 120 meters long but such "minor mistakes" happen. Rajchman said 11 graves around the camp, and the geophysical survey found 12 large pits. Since geophysics cannot survey the entire site and likely also found pits used to bury rubbish when the camp was closed down, that will not tally, but it confirms his claim of a lot of pits.
Wiernik did not say how many graves were dug. You are going by his model, which actually has 6 graves. His model is not to scale and is merely representative.
Rosenberg, like the others, likely overestimated the size of the graves.
You need evidence to prove they lied, such as proof of no large pits at TII. You do not have any evidence, so you claim anything you do not believe to be lies, using the argument from incredulity.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 2, 2022 0:27:21 GMT
Nessie wrote:
First, Nessie doesn't understand the word "scale" and its relation to models. He has apparently discovered that "rectilinear" isn't a synonym for "rectangular" but then goes on to say that "large" pits have been revealed. None of those alleged pits come even close to Rajchman's 30X50 meter rectangular prisms that he claims were the dimensions of the T-II graves. Neither do they fit any of Wiernik's or Rosenberg's graves. Nessie's claim that those pits were "dug out" by the Germans or grave robbers is laughable since the "digging out" would have enlarged the graves not made them smaller. His claim that Rosenberg's graves were just a result of overestimation is ludicrous. According to Nessie Rosenberg apparently overestimated the length of the graves by over 100% and underestimated the width of the graves by 100%.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 2, 2022 9:21:58 GMT
Nessie wrote: First, Nessie doesn't understand the word "scale" and its relation to models. He has apparently discovered that "rectilinear" isn't a synonym for "rectangular" but then goes on to say that "large" pits have been revealed. None of those alleged pits come even close to Rajchman's 30X50 meter rectangular prisms that he claims were the dimensions of the T-II graves. Neither do they fit any of Wiernik's or Rosenberg's graves. Nessie's claim that those pits were "dug out" by the Germans or grave robbers is laughable since the "digging out" would have enlarged the graves not made them smaller. His claim that Rosenberg's graves were just a result of overestimation is ludicrous. According to Nessie Rosenberg apparently overestimated the length of the graves by over 100% and underestimated the width of the graves by 100%.
"several larger pits were recorded in areas suggested by witnesses as the locations of mass graves and cremation sites.
One is 26m long, 17m wide and at least four metres deep, with a ramp at the west end and a vertical edge to the east.
Another five pits of varying sizes and also at least this deep are located nearby."
The aerial photo which shows roughly where the large pits have been identified, also shows how little of the camp can be surveyed and how much is covered by the memorial, which is where the bulk of the mass graves are located.
There is ample evidence to prove the Nazis dug various large pits at TII. There is no evidence they did not dig large pits at TII.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 2, 2022 9:30:38 GMT
I'll believe CS-C when she publishes her complete GPR scans of the area. She claims to have made them so let's see them.
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 2, 2022 9:44:38 GMT
I'll believe CS-C when she publishes her complete GPR scans of the area. She claims to have made them so let's see them. Why not write to Staffs Uni and ask for all the scan results? Or would that mean you having to do some work and you cannot be bothered, because you have seen some scans in her report and you cannot read them anyway!
Meanwhile, I will just remind you that you have no evidence they did not dig large pits at TII.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 2, 2022 10:12:53 GMT
Uh-huh, CS-C claims to have found some irregularly shaped holes and Nessie is apparently claiming that Jews were buried in them. That's after they were gassed in hermetically sealed gas chambers. Then they were exhumed with a clamshell and cremated on a raised grate with some twigs for fuel. At any rate the cadavers cremated themselves and the cremains were beaten and sifted as fine as cigarette ash and thrown back in the irregularly shaped holes. What could be more reasonable than that?
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Nessie
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Post by Nessie on Jun 2, 2022 10:52:02 GMT
Uh-huh, CS-C claims to have found some irregularly shaped holes and Nessie is apparently claiming that Jews were buried in them. That's after they were gassed in hermetically sealed gas chambers. Then they were exhumed with a clamshell and cremated on a raised grate with some twigs for fuel. At any rate the cadavers cremated themselves and the cremains were beaten and sifted as fine as cigarette ash and thrown back in the irregularly shaped holes. What could be more reasonable than that? Where do you get they are "irregular shaped holes"? Is it because of the way the grave sites are roughly marked on the aerial photo? She describes many pits that she found as rectilinear, meaning straight lines and one of the pits as "with a ramp at the west end and a vertical edge to the east". The dimensions are rectangular. They will not be perfect outlines any more, as they were dug into and the site grave robbed. But they were no just irregular holes, there were large, rectangular pits.
Gassing people in gas chambers sealed so they would not leak and then preventing a body count by exhuming the bodies with an unknown model of excavator and cremating them on the most efficient form of pyre, is perfectly reasonable.
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Turnagain
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Post by Turnagain on Jun 2, 2022 12:03:58 GMT
Rectilinear IS NOT synonymous with "rectangular". How many times does it have to be defined for you. It is an irregular shaped figure with right angles. What can't you understand about that? If she had found any rectangular prisms she would have shouted it from the roof tops. "I found a rectangular pit that was approximately 25 meters wide and at least 4 meters deep that extended under the investigatory barriers" and so on.
If the graves were "dug into" then they would be larger than the 25-30 meter wide graves claimed by Wiernik and Rajchman. CS-C didn't find any pits that even approached that size. You can piss and moan about it from now til forever but CS-C didn't find any graves as described by multiple so-called eyewitnesses.
Nessie wrote:
Gassing people in hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers, burying them in mass graves, exhuming them with a clamshell and cremating them by means of magic is bullsh!t.
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